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Religion Megathread; The formation of life on Earth.
Topic Started: May 13 2007, 12:48 PM (1,565 Views)
lumpy
Citizen B
I believe science and evolution because it makes logical sense, and might as well be proven. But I also believe in creation of the universe by God, because the only explanation(s) science has for the utter existence of the universe and everything in it is purely theoretical.
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European Son
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Since you -and everyone else- want to keep asking me questions after I dropped out, I will try my best to answer this. Do any of you think it is strange that there is no Science to prove that there is in fact a god, yet millions of people believe there is one? You see, religion is where science
stops, and faith takes over. People have faith that there is a god, and that is why religion is so strong. Is religion true? I have no F***ing idea. Do I have faith? Yes.


Religion was born in a time of logical uncertainty, where the answers we sought (How? What? Who? Why?) were absent from reasonable understanding. As time progressed, the comfort and security in monotheism, and the certainty that religion placed in people's minds was unmatched by the reason and scientific reality that surrounded us with such clear certainty.

I'd like to refer to (in the style of the late TSC) a great French philosopher, Michael Onfray, who suffered a near fatal heart attack at the age of 28. Once faced with the prospect of changing his diet to ensure longer life, he said "I prefer to die eating butter than to economise my existence with margarine." I see this as a perfect analogy of religion's role in people's lives. Rather than to except this life as the greatest of all blessings, and enjoy it without limit to the passion or beauty that exists within it, we must relegate ourselves to preparing for a life after death.

Religion is strong because of the traditional strengthening of time, and repetition without question or reasonable inquiry. You believe not because you have to, but because you want certainty. Or you believe, because you are told you want certainty.


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I believe science and evolution because it makes logical sense, and might as well be proven. But I also believe in creation of the universe by God, because the only explanation(s) science has for the utter existence of the universe and everything in it is purely theoretical.


Once again, do not confuse the 'unexplainable' with the 'unexplained.' A theory, once presented with evidence that is questioned beyond reasonable doubt is pure reality. You speak of Scientific explanation as 'purely theoretical', however your alternative was born from men living in unforgivable circumstances, wishing only for redemption beyond lifelong toil. This is not reason, but desire for certainty (as mentioned above), and its only reinforcement is unsubstantiated scriptures and tradition.

The two above explanations for life on Earth and the Universe are mutually exclusive, and to believe both is to contradict yourself entirely.

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One vote for Creation please. I believe that God created us, and pushed us towards evolution, although I wouldn't call it evolution.


Why?
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stormbreaker
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As usual, I'll pop in real quick to give my opinion.

I believe in Evolution. Kinda hard not to. Yeah I know 'the religion guy', what a surprise! But evolution seems pretty legit... And I've always believed it...

To me, Creation kinda looks away from the fact that dinosaurs lived before humans...
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lumpy
Citizen B
European Son
May 14 2007, 12:44 PM
your alternative was born from men living in unforgivable circumstances, wishing only for redemption beyond lifelong toil. This is not reason, but desire for certainty (as mentioned above), and its only reinforcement is unsubstantiated scriptures and tradition.

I'm not a strict, absolute follower of scriptures though, because I don't find them to be reliable. They have existed since and been altered many times from when they were originally written. Call my beliefs a "modernization" of them.

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The two above explanations for life on Earth and the Universe are mutually exclusive, and to believe both is to contradict yourself entirely.


The creation of the universe by God is the basis of my faith, rather than the creation of life in place of evolution. Whether this is contradictory or not I really couldn't care less, and the creation of the universe (religion vs. science) is another topic anyway.
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European Son
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lumpunzik
May 14 2007, 01:04 PM


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I'm not a strict, absolute follower of scriptures though, because I don't find them to be reliable. They have existed since and been altered many times from when they were originally written. Call my beliefs a "modernization" of them.


Okay, so you're a cherry picking Christian. That's not meant to be offensive at all, and it explains your views entirely.

Quote:
 
The creation of the universe by God is the basis of my faith, rather than the creation of life in place of evolution. Whether this is contradictory or not I really couldn't care less, and the creation of the universe (religion vs. science) is another topic anyway.


I'd say it's relevant to the discussion here. Again, both theories are mutually exclusive. According to the evidence we have now, life on Earth has existed for around 3.7billion years. This in itself contradicts Creation, and supports the theory Evolution. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this would mean that if one was to believe in Creation and Evolution, you would believe that the Earth was created by God in seven days, and from there the natural world and organisms evolved into what we see today.

Like your 'cherry picking' of Religious doctrines, this theory is cherry picking of scientific evidence and mixing with religious ideas that inherently contradict the aforementioned evidence.

(Again, I am not trying to offend ANYONE here, but understand exactly what they believe and why.)
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Mars
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Lumpy, Stormbreaker, this is not a matter in which one can "cop out of". You're either for creation or evolution. One or the other.

Euro, don't apologize for what you believe in.
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Arkan
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I surveyed my class today out of interest (I am not a nerd) and these are my results.

Evolution: 9

Creation: 7

Both: 6

So as you can see quite a lot of people believe in both Creationism and Evolution. Like Dneezy and Lumpy, they believed that god created the Earth and then we evolved. I half disagree with what Euro said about them being mutually exclusive, as there are many Christian scientists, but I definitely see the logic behind what you say. It is contradictory. I guess they just believe in parts of the bible, and not Genesis.
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European Son
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Arkan
May 14 2007, 07:53 PM
I surveyed my class today out of interest (I am not a nerd) and these are my results.

Evolution: 9

Creation: 7

Both: 6

So as you can see quite a lot of people believe in both Creationism and Evolution. Like Dneezy and Lumpy, they believed that god created the Earth and then we evolved. I half disagree with what Euro said about them being mutually exclusive, as there are many Christian scientists, but I definitely see the logic behind what you say. It is contradictory. I guess they just believe in parts of the bible, and not Genesis.

From an atheist's perspective, those numbers are not entirely surprising but frightening nonetheless.

They are mutually exclusive, unless you are of the cherry-picking belief, when you take part of 'God's word' and half of Biological Science. It's astoundingly illogical.
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lumpy
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Mars
May 14 2007, 04:47 PM
Lumpy, Stormbreaker, this is not a matter in which one can "cop out of". You're either for creation or evolution. One or the other.

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(Again, I am not trying to offend ANYONE here, but understand exactly what they believe and why.)


I don't expect anyone here to understand what I believe, much less why, which makes me wonder why I posted here in the first place. Reason has really been escaping me recently. But forget everything I said, because there is no way I can elucidate my whole faith in ways atheists and even some christians alike can understand, because a lot of it has to do with my past experiences and personal background. Just because things appear contradictory to others doesn't mean they seem like that to me. And frankly, I don't care if my un-understandable place in belief makes me look like an idiot (you can be honest), because the last time I cared about that from anybody was at least 5 years ago.
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Arkan
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Yes but as proved by my survey Lumpy, your not alone in the odd way you believe in.
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lumpy
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I understand that.
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stormbreaker
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European Son
May 13 2007, 09:23 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this would mean that if one was to believe in Creation and Evolution, you would believe that the Earth was created by God in seven days, and from there the natural world and organisms evolved into what we see today.

Here's me correcting you:

Mars
 
Lumpy, Stormbreaker, this is not a matter in which one can "cop out of". You're either for creation or evolution. One or the other.


Firstly, this is hard to talk about without bringing religion into this and debating that, too. It's the basis for Creation, after all! I guess that statement should have gone unsaid...

Here's how I see it: I can believe in Creation (more specifically, God) and Evolution. I like science and crap, and Evolution is VERY solid to me. I genuinely believe that's how it went down.

Interestingly enough, I just asked about this at my Bible Study session last night, or I wouldn't know all of this.

For Creation and Evolution to co-exist, I like to think of this: Science explains HOW and Faith explains WHY. Euro, you make the point of
God creating the world in seven days' and blah blah blah. There are certain people in the world who will tell you that. There are people who believe every word the Bible says, word for word. I'm not one of them.

The Bible was originally written in Hebrew. How many different translations are there? A ton. Languages don't always translate perfectly, as I'm sure you know, and so we find this problem when reading the Bible. No, I'm not saying the only reason I don't believe every word of the Bible is because of Translation. There are other reasons too.

A word linear to 'begot' in our language was the source of much mayhem when some dipshity people tried to say the world was 6,000 years old (having counted the years of Abraham and his sons, etc.) However, the word in Hebrew for 'begot' indicates not only the relationship between a father and son, but could also indicate grandfather, great-grandfather, etc. That's a big difference when you're saying something stupid like the world is 6,000 years old.

I believe in scientific theory and thought. I'm not an idiot. Evolution sounds good, and I believe in it. If science explains how we evolve, faith explains why, etc.

Another something to take into consideration is the original audience of the Bible. The first five or seven books of the Bible were written for the newly-freed Jews from Egypt. The Jews proposed questions to Moses about this faith and the world around them, seeing as they hadn't seen much else, having been slaves. The book was (if you believe in God, anyway) written with the 'help', if you will, of God. It was used to explain things to the Jews. It wasn't intended to be a rigidly followed doctrine to base scientific thought off of 2,000 years later.

Why didn't the Bible mention dinosaurs and such when God created the world? The Jews didn't ask questions about them! Indeed, the Bible does say that man came last. It says a lot, and some of it I can say sounds solid (at least solid in a religious sense... I think it's safe to say there's no 'hard evidence' of God and such, but simply my experiences in life have led me to believe in Him), like Evolution.

Although some details are still a little foggy to me (actually, writing this out has helped me think about this more... now I have some more questions to ask... thanks, guys!) I can firmly say that I believe in God and Creation, but still believe in Evolution.

Thank you for your interpretation of my statement, Euro and Mars. I apologize for not being specific.

P.S. I agree with Mars, don't apologize for what you believe in. Everyone here has the right to a respectable opinion. Thanks again!
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lumpy
Citizen B
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Science explains HOW and Faith explains WHY.


The most astoundingly perfect summation of what I believe.

But once again, my explanation for why I believe it would befit the mind of (almost) no one. Apologies for a near-unnecessary post but I couldn't help not to point out this elementary fact about my personal creed, and even of others.
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Mars
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lumpunzik
May 16 2007, 08:41 AM
Quote:
 
Science explains HOW and Faith explains WHY.


The most astoundingly perfect summation of what I believe.

But once again, my explanation for why I believe it would befit the mind of (almost) no one. Apologies for a near-unnecessary post but I couldn't help not to point out this elementary fact about my personal creed, and even of others.

I totally disagree. Not only does Science explain the how AND the why, it also explains the when and the where.

Nice lengthy post Stormbreaker, apart from that garbage about the translation of documents.
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lumpy
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Mars
May 16 2007, 09:25 AM
I totally disagree. Not only does Science explain the how AND the why, it also explains the when and the where.

Which is where the line is clearly drawn between science and religion, whether you simply believe one thing or another.
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