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Religion Megathread; The formation of life on Earth.
Topic Started: May 13 2007, 12:48 PM (1,564 Views)
lumpy
Citizen B
Quote:
 
whether you simply believe one thing or another.


Actually what I meant is:

Whether you believe religion or not.

Since Storm and I are believers in the "mixture theory", if you will.
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stormbreaker
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lumpunzik
May 15 2007, 05:34 PM
Mars
May 16 2007, 09:25 AM
I totally disagree. Not only does Science explain the how AND the why, it also explains the when and the where.

Which is where the line is clearly drawn between science and religion, whether you simply believe one thing or another.

The words right from my mouth.

I see what Mars means, though. Evolution explains why things evolve, but (to a religious person) there must be some interaction with God or something. I felt the same way as lumpunzik when that matter was presented so simply to me.

I can understand your position given your religious standpoint Mars, but that's what I'm afraid this thread has become...

It appears that's really what there is to debate in life...
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European Son
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stormbreaker
May 16 2007, 08:21 AM


Okay, I'll share my thoughts with this, statement by statement.

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Firstly, this is hard to talk about without bringing religion into this and debating that, too.  It's the basis for Creation, after all!  I guess that statement should have gone unsaid...


I think this is one of the great downfalls of this such debate. While on one hand, creationist debaters are profoundly biased in what they believe in and the basis of which they believe it, on the other hand scientists establish their position through decades (if not centuries) of probing and questioning of such theory.

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Here's how I see it:  I can believe in Creation (more specifically, God) and Evolution.  I like science and crap, and Evolution is VERY solid to me.  I genuinely believe that's how it went down.

Interestingly enough, I just asked about this at my Bible Study session last night, or I wouldn't know all of this.

For Creation and Evolution to co-exist, I like to think of this:  Science explains HOW and Faith explains WHY.  Euro, you make the point of
God creating the world in seven days' and blah blah blah.  There are certain people in the world who will tell you that.  There are people who believe every word the Bible says, word for word.  I'm not one of them.


Religion represents a philosophical divide between what is explainable, and what is utterly unexplainable (according the laws of inquiry.) Religion and highly theological philosophy is therefore, in my opinion, no great contributer or of any great worth to the progression of human knowledge. However, if these philosophies are relevant to what you perceive as 'right' and 'wrong', in the context in which they are presented, inherent subjectivity of 'right and wrong' and progression is essentially irrelevant.

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The Bible was originally written in Hebrew.  How many different translations are there?  A ton.  Languages don't always translate perfectly, as I'm sure you know, and so we find this problem when reading the Bible.  No, I'm not saying the only reason I don't believe every word of the Bible is because of Translation.  There are other reasons too.

A word linear to 'begot' in our language was the source of much mayhem when some dipshity people tried to say the world was 6,000 years old (having counted the years of Abraham and his sons, etc.)  However, the word in Hebrew for 'begot' indicates not only the relationship between a father and son, but could also indicate grandfather, great-grandfather, etc.  That's a big difference when you're saying something stupid like the world is 6,000 years old.


However, creationists preach such a "fact", therefore it's part of the creation argument. I completely understand your point though.

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Another something to take into consideration is the original audience of the Bible.  The first five or seven books of the Bible were written for the newly-freed Jews from Egypt.  The Jews proposed questions to Moses about this faith and the world around them, seeing as they hadn't seen much else, having been slaves.  The book was (if you believe in God, anyway) written with the 'help', if you will, of God.  It was used to explain things to the Jews.  It wasn't intended to be a rigidly followed doctrine to base scientific thought off of 2,000 years later.


This was exactly my point in previous posts on the great divide between theology and non theological philosophy. For lack of a better word, the demographic that the Bible, and almost all religious texts are targeted at is a reflection of the messages that it presents. Endless toil in an unforgiving environment would of course invoke infinite desires for a heavenly existence after death. In the case of non-theological philosophy, the direct focus of its ideas or teachings would be for this life, taken as the greatest of all conceivable blessings and not a prospective one to follow. Hence my chosen field of interest.

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Why didn't the Bible mention dinosaurs and such when God created the world?  The Jews didn't ask questions about them!  Indeed, the Bible does say that man came last.  It says a lot, and some of it I can say sounds solid (at least solid in a religious sense... I think it's safe to say there's no 'hard evidence' of God and such, but simply my experiences in life have led me to believe in Him), like Evolution.


The concept of a higher intelligence is beyond the realm of scientific inquiry, which for some is "evidence enough" for His proposed existence. If you were not aware of the Bible, and weren't brought up by default as a Christian, would you still see a correlation between your experiences and His existence? I see this as a mental reassurance of transparent certainty.

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Although some details are still a little foggy to me (actually, writing this out has helped me think about this more... now I have some more questions to ask... thanks, guys!) I can firmly say that I believe in God and Creation, but still believe in Evolution.


From what I've read in this post, you believe in theological philosophy and God's existence, but reject His creation of the universe.

Good post.
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Arkan
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Its not for you to say if it was a good post.

Great post Euro!
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European Son
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Arkan
May 16 2007, 08:38 PM
Its not for you to say if it was a good post.

Great post Euro!

That would be TSC levels of arrogance.
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stormbreaker
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European Son
May 16 2007, 04:56 AM
Arkan
May 16 2007, 08:38 PM
Its not for you to say if it was a good post.

Great post Euro!

That would be TSC levels of arrogance.

Nice one, and nice post, too Euro.

I totally see where you're coming from. And frankly, I agree. It's difficult to have this debate with the bias from (depending on how you look at it) both sides. Since I believe in something different than you from the get-go, well, you see my point.

I was profoundly satisfied with your entire post; I did, however, want to clear up one thing:

Euro
 
However, creationists preach such a "fact", therefore it's part of the creation argument. I completely understand your point though.


As I stated before, I don't believe this 'word-for-word' Bible nonsense. I do believe in Creation, though. It's people that take things over the top (blindly following any lead) that give people like myself and lumpunzik a bad name. We're just being reasonable with our religion, and frankly, I'm glad I believe in Evolution... It looks right. But you have to understand the necessitated tie with religion and this as well, thus my point at the beginning of my post.

Thanks for reading, Euro!

I love how Arkan pops in just to add on to people with comments that don't contribute to this debate at all.

L
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Mr. Awesome
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I have my own beliefs about evolution+creation, but let's leave it at that.

I don't feel like typing alot, I'm in the middle of a writing spree and getting somewhat sick of it.
Guess what! I'm writing a book called Nuclear Winter!
giggleguy
 
That's a pretty stupid thing to say.
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Mars
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Just for the record, evolution is not capitalized.
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lumpy
Citizen B
Okay, I know I will regret this, but on the superficial whim of becoming "enlightened", I'd like to throw an updated two cents in here.

Mars
 
Not only does Science explain the how AND the why, it also explains the when and the where.


That's it in a nutshell. You see, I was never very religious. For most of my youth and adolescence I went to church, albeit occasionally. The concept of an all-powerful being who loves me was pretty fucking cool. But in the past year or so I've gone through a considerable change in mentality that reflects above quotation. I also developed moral values which directly contradict various instructions of the Bible. Well, there's no point in being a hypocrite, is there?

What I'm trying to say is that I can, and will no longer accept any religious doctrine, or any God(s) in my life anymore. I mean, when several religions contradict each other anyway, who am I supposed to believe? There are simply too many manifestations of such abstract ideas when science is, and always has been, clear and concise.

My afterthoughts on this are that if some higher being(s) truly exists, he/she/it created me to be this way. Honestly, I don't see free will and a super-dominant deity logically coexisting.
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Mr. Panda
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lumpy
Jun 11 2008, 09:33 PM
What I'm trying to say is that I can, and will no longer accept any religious doctrine, or any God(s) in my life anymore.

You should read "Siddhartha." I think you'll like it.
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stormbreaker
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Mr. Panda
Jun 12 2008, 10:15 AM
lumpy
Jun 11 2008, 09:33 PM
What I'm trying to say is that I can, and will no longer accept any religious doctrine, or any God(s) in my life anymore.

You should read "Siddhartha." I think you'll like it.

We did last year.

Or we were meant to... Haha.

I saw there was a new post on the Evolution vs. Creation thread and thought... "Ohhhhh man!!"
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Mr. Awesome
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Aaaand the post by me several posts up is horrible out of date. I am now an atheist, but I still go to church every week.

I've seen no evidence of God's existence, and I'm not going to credit things like "Oh Martha's baby came out alright even though she was two weeks early!" as his work.

Of course, the Bible says God is real, and God says the Bible is nothing but truth, so he must exist, right? Wrong. Fuck circular reasoning.

EDIT: I'm not all there with the Big Bang Theory either though. Maybe its right and maybe its wrong, but whatever, we're here and lets make the most of it.
Guess what! I'm writing a book called Nuclear Winter!
giggleguy
 
That's a pretty stupid thing to say.
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Mr. Panda
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God is atheist.

Faith is the belief in something which we do not have knowledge of or have no proof of. God, being omniscient, has no faith. Also, because God is the highest being, he cannot believe in a higher being.
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Mr. Awesome
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Faith is a load of shit in my opinion. It's every religious zealot's last missile, because they think it can't be shot down.
Guess what! I'm writing a book called Nuclear Winter!
giggleguy
 
That's a pretty stupid thing to say.
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Mars
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Igor Bonanimals
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It's getting really hot in this thread.
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