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| Illegal Immigration in the U.S. | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 18 2007, 12:33 PM (716 Views) | |
| Mr. Awesome | Aug 18 2007, 12:33 PM Post #1 |
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Master of His Domain
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Immigration. For most people around where I live, it's a touchy subject, as there are plenty of proud Mexican families, and stupid kids who think that they're upholding honor or some shit by defending illegal immigrants. Now I wouldn't normally have a problem with illegal immigration, but for these points: - These immigrants (and mind you, there are exceptions to everything, I'm talking generally here) (most specifically the ones of Spanish/Hispanic descent) have no respect for America. - These immigrants have no respect for America's people. They seem to think that everybody is out to get them, that we have personal grudges against them, or that white people just suck. And when I bring up this point, keep in mind that I'm still talking about the young and hotblooded. - "it's people," or at least most of them, are hard working folks, and being another "rich white guy" takes a little hard work. - Illegal immigrants are here illegally. We have laws for reasons. In America, we ask you for a few things, two of those being respect and abiding the law, especially if it is harmful to anyone other than yourself. - Very recently, an illegal immigrant took part in "assassinating" college students at gunpoint. It was later learned that he had previously raped a five year old. It makes me very angry when I realize that in order to have documented this previous crime, they would have had to had enough information to book him, but action was not taken. I also realize that this forum is pretty left-wing, liberal, whatever you want to call it. So what are your views on illegal immigration? |
Guess what! I'm writing a book called Nuclear Winter!
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| Mr. Panda | Aug 18 2007, 12:54 PM Post #2 |
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Lord of the Manor
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I'm totally fine with it, but like you said, they should have some pride in the fact that they ARE here. We personally don't have many immigrants where I am... Now that I think about it, my area sucks. Full of cocky caucasians (heh), "wiggers" (as people here call them, you figure it out. I don't want to say the translation here.), or orientals desperately trying to BE one of the previously mentioned groups. |
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| stormbreaker | Aug 18 2007, 02:00 PM Post #3 |
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Master of His Domain
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For the most part, there's only two reasons why people have a problem with it. Money and (I forget the second... lol?) Of course, there's always the moral side of it, too. I really wish there was something we could do, but not everyone can live in America. If everyone did, things would be disastrous. America would become... scummier. |
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| Mr. Panda | Aug 18 2007, 02:35 PM Post #4 |
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Lord of the Manor
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Reminds me of an issue on NationStates where you had to choose different immigrant policies. |
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| stormbreaker | Aug 18 2007, 02:40 PM Post #5 |
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Master of His Domain
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I had to do this yesterday in Govt class; that's really the only reason I have anything to say! |
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| giggleguy | Aug 18 2007, 10:30 PM Post #6 |
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I'm fine with it. |
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| lumpy | Aug 19 2007, 02:10 AM Post #7 |
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Citizen B
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It's because they're being moral, but the problem with that is that many illegals were already criminals before they crossed the border. I can understand defending the illegals who came to America for 'opportunity' (which usually ends up as a successful career at McDonalds) but had a clean record before jumping into our country. That doesn't mean I defend them, all illegals still deserve to face the law. The bigger issue that has put me against illegals, though, is when they hop the fence to come here to make a successful career in crime. It's a 'greater of the two evils' thing. |
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| Mr. Awesome | Aug 19 2007, 04:01 AM Post #8 |
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Master of His Domain
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When I say stupid kids I'm mostly referring to ones I know from school or some such, and they're stupid, as in, they'll participate in walkouts just so they can leave, and when anybody questions them they'll answer with a derogative - "Bush sucks! He wants to kill all immigrants!" answer. They don't know what they stand for, they just want attention. But enough about stupid kids. |
Guess what! I'm writing a book called Nuclear Winter!
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| lumpy | Aug 19 2007, 04:36 AM Post #9 |
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Citizen B
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Bush wants to kill all immigrants... They've set the bar of stupidity pretty high for themselves. |
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| stormbreaker | Aug 19 2007, 05:04 AM Post #10 |
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Master of His Domain
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That's it. NO MORE GOING IN OR OUT OF AMERICA. THAT MEANS YOU TOO, IMPORTED CRAP FROM JAPAN AND CHINA. What? What do you mean we've suddenly become a world power again? When weren't we one? What are you talking about Japan and China weakening our country? You're crazy. Go to the beloved country. (Afrika.) |
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| European Son | Aug 20 2007, 05:13 PM Post #11 |
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Master of His Domain
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Before you even begin to formulate an argument, make sure its not entirely fallacious.
You basically summed up the fallacy in this assertion yourself, thankyou. In no way is it valid to generalize about an entire minority group, nor is it wise to undermine it yourself. Perhaps you meant: "-Every Illegal immigrant that I, El, have encountered appear to have no respect for America." How unfortunate.
Again, it's never wise to contradict yourself. So far, rather than present a reasonable argument against illegal immigration (a paradox in itself), you've essentially made it clear that you have never encountered "an immigrant" (assuming you know there status of legality) that "respects" the United States of America. Okay.
By "being another "rich white guy" takes a little hard work", I'm assuming you're referring to the insults/heat to cop from "the immigrants" you've encountered? If so, this still isn't of any relevance to the debate and only goes to show, once more, "the immigrants" you've met/observed hold you in contempt.
You really hit the nail on the head there.
Again with the contradictions. If they're exempt from their constitutional rights and expectations, you can't logically argue that they should be upholding them. Hey, it's unfortunate, but that argument is meaningless.
That's hideous and I certainly doubt there'd be any supporters of this behaviour from members of the Latino/Hispanic illegal community. Also, this is probably the first valid point you raise. The inability to track, monitor and identify illegal immigrants in general is a judicial clusterfuck and certainly a standout negative byproduct. So what are you suggesting? For the sake of argument, I'll assume you want to all illegal aliens (or perhaps just the Latinos) to be extradited? I think the logical course of action would be to phase in citizenship to all current US residents (living under illegal status) weeding out "the bad from the good" according to records of their activities in their home nation. This however, is never going to happen. I think you're going to have to sit tight, because both the Democrats and Republicans seem, reasonably, to see the potential economic collapse as a warning sign or at least a wavering factor in "taking action". For example, your entire $30billion agricultural industry, currently supported by around 2,000,000 illegal aliens would most likely be crippled, not to mention service or retail industries. Perhaps you need to clearly distinguish between your personal experience with what you assume are illegal immigrants and the actual pros and cons of their residence in the United States. |
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| Mr. Awesome | Aug 21 2007, 01:42 AM Post #12 |
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Master of His Domain
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That is in no way what a meant, and if you'd stop misperceiving me for a second you'd realize that.
Oh, that's funny. I thought you were asking me for
No, it doesn't. It clearly shows that they lack proper respect, which is one of my major points.
So by your way of thinking, you can live in a country illegally and expect to be exempt from laws? Since most of them are trying their best to blend in, they should probably do their best to follow our laws.
In any case, I'm glad we agree on one thing.
No, I'm suggesting we annex Mexico. Impracticalities aside, there has got to be a sensible solution somewhere.
It was wrong of us to base it on cheap labor in the first place, and there are plenty of jobless Americans. In any case, one solution would be to bring the hammer down so hard on illegal immigrants that they decide that maybe Mexico/South America isn't so bad after all. |
Guess what! I'm writing a book called Nuclear Winter!
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| giggleguy | Aug 21 2007, 03:56 PM Post #13 |
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Demigod
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El, that wasn't debate, that was just denying everything that Euro said. |
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| Arkan | Aug 21 2007, 07:27 PM Post #14 |
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Better than sliced bread
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Thats a good idea. The question is whether there is enough manpower for that and also if it would be economically viable because illegal immigration might be good for the economy (that is another debate altoether). |
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| European Son | Aug 21 2007, 09:27 PM Post #15 |
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Master of His Domain
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Either you need to completely rephrase your idea, or realise that: "- These immigrants (and mind you, there are exceptions to everything, I'm talking generally here) (most specifically the ones of Spanish/Hispanic descent) have no respect for America." implies that every illegal immigrant of a Latino/Hispanic background "[has] no respect for America." My point clearly demonstrated how fallacious this assertion is, assuming you've never encountered every illegal immigrant of Latino/Hispanic descent.
That wasn't an assertion against yours, I was just commenting. Furthermore, I stand by my original point, as you haven't even begun to outline any valid points for or against illegal immigration other than the legalities and outstanding records.
"...It clearly shows that they lack proper respect..." Again, you're missing the point. You have not met and "experienced" every illegal alien in the United States, therefore you can not claim that "they" have no respect for the nation. If you're trying to claim that by living illegally, they're somehow displaying a lack of "proper respect", say so and justify it. Outline your points clearly, or it appears nonsensical and invalid at best.
It's quite simple. 1. By definition, the United States Constitution and entire judicial system applies to its citizens, and its citizens only. You seem to be twisting that as some sort of outrageous justification of crimes committed by illegal aliens in the US, but that's just ridiculous and illogical. 2. "Since most of them are trying their best to blend in, they should probably do their best to follow our laws." This implies that every illegal immigrant is in some way (other than their status of residence) breaking the law. Before you say "That wasn't my point!", you should choose your words with much more care. For the record, around 344,123 illegal immigrants are currently incarcerated, with another 655,609 living as fugitives or with outstanding arrest warrants. Considering that these statistics are sourced from what would appear to be a staunchly anti immigration website and suggest that only around 4.76% of the entire illegal population break the law, you should consider revising your point.
Imagine that...there'd be a conservative uprising! The current "solution" is to tighten restrictions and strengthen the state's abilities to immediately deport, largely thanks to terrorist fueled paranoia/legislation.
Considering the shit that they're willing to go through to make a home in "the land of the free", I doubt South or Central America would ever become attractive once more, no matter how harsh the legislation. As for cheap labour, it's an unavoidable trait of capitalism. With a free market that is void of state controlled employment and labour regulation, employers are essentially free to maximize capital. What GG said was largely right, you haven't really rebutted anything I said; rather, you just claimed I've "misperceived" your points without making the original point clear. How about actually addressing my counter arguments, or coming up with some valid points?
Exactly, hence my "unfortunately this is never going to happen" comment. |
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Impracticalities aside, there has got to be a sensible solution somewhere.

6:28 PM Jul 11