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The words "under God" in the pledge of allegiance; does it offend you?
Topic Started: Mar 2 2006, 07:33 PM (531 Views)
TheHugeUnit
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JustJenks5,Mar 2 2006
11:54 PM
All this stuff about founding our country based on religion is stupid crap. .

Well Religon played a big part in this country's past, but it wasn't founded on religon. Should the words in God we trust be on stuff? sure and if you don't want to say it then you don't have to
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Element
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TheHugeUnit,Mar 2 2006
08:58 PM
Should the words in God we trust be on stuff?

Good point. That also wasn't on American money when it first started.
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Element,Mar 2 2006
09:38 PM
Was slavery a religious institution? Our country was founded with slavery being legal.

And if I remember correctly, we do have freedom of religion, and not everyone here believes in god. Far from it.

And you did imply that the country was founded with 'under god' in the pledge.

The concept of slavery was not what this country was founded on. As a matter of fact, in the colonial days, they had the mind set that "if a man doesn't work, he doesn't eat." Hunh, what do you know, thats a biblical principle. I am not saying we didn't have slaves at the time our country was founded either, so please don't misinterpret what I'm trying to say here.

And you're right, we do have freedom of religion. "Under God" would be included in that which is why it shouldn't be removed. I (and many other Americans) would take it as an attack on our religious freedom if the words were dropped. Just like removing the Ten Commandments from federal buildings.

I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that "under God" was in the original pledge. That is not what I intended when I said "This country was founded on religious principles." Again, my apologies for not being clear what I meant.
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Element
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Yeah, and we don't have separation of church and state either....

"under god" is a christian reference. What about he other religions, and atheists. If I'm Hindu, how do I feel with "under god" in the pledge. You would be forcing your religion on me.

We may either officially endorse all religions or none at all. Should we choose to endorse all religions, we must equate Satanism with Christianity, and Christianity with Islam, and Islam with Buddhism, and Buddhism with Paganism, and so the list would continue until all 55 plus religions existent in the USA are mentioned. The only feasible way to re-achieve the government Thomas Jefferson envisioned is to endorse no religion at all:

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"[When] the [Virginia] bill for establishing religious freedom... was finally passed, ...a singular proposition proved that its protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion." The insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend within the mantle of its protection the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo and [the] infidel of every denomination."

--Thomas Jefferson: Autobiography, 1821


The insertion of "under god" would be rejected by a great majority if the founding fathers themselves had anything to say about it.
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Cle-Ind-Town
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I really do not understand how it can offend people. I know people have different types of religion, but it all started with the Bible, and "One Nation, Under God". You cant just remove that now..
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Ulysses

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You don't have to say under god in the pledge if you don't want to. You don't even have to say the pledge. I suppose you could change what it says to yourself, like one nation, under *your belief here*.

I don't have a problem with it.
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Element,Mar 3 2006
08:59 AM
Yeah, and we don't have separation of church and state either....

Quote:
 
"[When] the [Virginia] bill for establishing religious freedom... was finally passed, ...a singular proposition proved that its protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion." The insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend within the mantle of its protection the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo and [the] infidel of every denomination."
--Thomas Jefferson: Autobiography, 1821


The insertion of "under god" would be rejected by a great majority if the founding fathers themselves had anything to say about it.

I like the way you brought up the whole "separation of church and state" thing since that isn't even in the Constitution. The "separation of church and state" idea came from a personal letter written by Thomas Jefferson. It was his personal opnion. Just like the excerpt you used. Please quantify a "great majority" for me. To me, there is a "great majority" of people who would be offended by the removal of "under God" from the pledge. To you, there would be a "great majority" of people who are offended by the words "under God." Again, that was Jefferson's opinion, and to try and state them as facts is wrong.
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Mets Rule
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It's unbelievable that people are offened by the words "Under god". Do those people understand how many things that the US prints the word "God" on?

This is just as bad as Jews wanting public Elementary Schools to call a Christmas Tree a "Holiday Tree" during the holidays. It's flat out annoying. I'm not dissing any relgion, just saying it's very stupid to consider taking out 1 word, when it's used all over.

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NateFizzle

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Mets Rule,Mar 8 2006
05:58 PM
This is just as bad as Jews wanting public Elementary Schools to call a Christmas Tree a "Holiday Tree" during the holidays. It's flat out annoying. I'm not dissing any relgion, just saying it's very stupid to consider taking out 1 word, when it's used all over.

That is stupid. A christmas tree is only used for Christmas. I understand calling Christmas Break, Winter Break, but thats like telling churches they can't call Jesus holy.
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ThomasTomasz
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84 percent of the United States is Christian. To go from that, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, the three biggest groupings of religion, have the same basic stories of creation, trace themselves back to Abraham, and believe in the same God (but practice very differently)

First, the Puritans came to this country, seeking religious freedom, and the only religion was Puritan. Then, Robin Williams went to Rhode Island and they were tolerant there. Lord Baltimore founded Maryland, a Catholic haven. Eventually, tolerance spread to other Christian faiths, the Jews, religions like the Mormons, and then, tolerance was extended to non-believers, athiests. Now, the last ones are trying to kick out the first.

There is no doctrine of seperation of church and state. I believe the correct wording is that "the government shall sanction no official state religion." The US fulfills that obligation, otherwise, we would be like Saudi Arabia, and be 100% Muslims, or in the days on Henry VIII of England, suddenly broken off from the Catholic church over a divorce.

Plus, there is a section in the constitution that is not a myth, and that is "Majority Rules, Minority Rights." The majority, Christians, has the right to have the word God present on everything, in the pledge, on money, etc. The minority has the right to not say the pledge, or acknowledge God in any way. Since the government does not sponsor religion, the 16% minority in the US is protected from being harmed because of their religious beliefs.
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natefizzle,Mar 8 2006
07:39 PM
That is stupid. A christmas tree is only used for Christmas. I understand calling Christmas Break, Winter Break, but thats like telling churches they can't call Jesus holy.

I know. Sad, isn't it?
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ThomasTomasz,Mar 8 2006
09:01 PM
84 percent of the United States is Christian. To go from that, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, the three biggest groupings of religion, have the same basic stories of creation, trace themselves back to Abraham, and believe in the same God (but practice very differently)

That couldn't have been stated any more incorrectly. Christianity believes in the Trinity- God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit. A confusing concept that one can only accept by faith in God. In Islam, Allah is the only god, and Mohamed is his prophet (not a God). Judaism is a little closer to Christianity, but they reject Jesus as the Messiah, which is actually a major difference. True Christianity and true Islam can never co-exist. Islam calls for jihad ("holy war") on all infidels (Christians and everyone else that beleive differently).
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eye95
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Big Willy Style,Mar 9 2006
01:13 AM
That couldn't have been stated any more incorrectly. Christianity believes in the Trinity- God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit. A confusing concept that one can only accept by faith in God. In Islam, Allah is the only god, and Mohamed is his prophet (not a God). Judaism is a little closer to Christianity, but they reject Jesus as the Messiah, which is actually a major difference. True Christianity and true Islam can never co-exist. Islam calls for jihad ("holy war") on all infidels (Christians and everyone else that beleive differently).

Gotta go with Thomas's take on this one. All three worship the One who instructed Abram to sacrifice his son and then spared his son when He saw Abram's faith. All three worship the One who renamed Abram to Abraham.

For the Jews, He is the God of their Jewish Bible, for the Christians, He is the God of the OT, who was later revealed (in the NT) to have been directly interacting with man through only one of the three Persons who make up the one God. To Muslims He is Allah.

All three worship the God of Abraham. We just see, interact with, and name Him differently.
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NateFizzle

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Big Willy Style,Mar 9 2006
02:13 AM
That couldn't have been stated any more incorrectly. Christianity believes in the Trinity- God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit. A confusing concept that one can only accept by faith in God. In Islam, Allah is the only god, and Mohamed is his prophet (not a God). Judaism is a little closer to Christianity, but they reject Jesus as the Messiah, which is actually a major difference. True Christianity and true Islam can never co-exist. Islam calls for jihad ("holy war") on all infidels (Christians and everyone else that beleive differently).

I'm going with you on this one. Although the Jews are almost Christians, they still lack Jesus, and will be going to hell. Islam is nowhere near Christianity. In the Christian faith, God and Jesus are loving and through Jesus we can go to heaven. In Islam Allah does not want relationships with his followers and only will let you in heaven if you kill non believers.
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eye95
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Of course the religions are different. The point being made is that the God they worship is the same God. To say that Muslims and Jews worship a diferent God would mean that various Christian factions also believe in different Gods. Some think that there are three seperate entities, some think only one God and that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not God, and most who think that The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are three aspects of the one God.

Then, there are the LDS, who have yet a third Testament!

All Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship the same God, the God of Abraham. We all just disagree with how our relationship with Him went from there.

Oh, and let's refrain from sayng who's going to Hell. Don't you think that's up to God? He frowns upon us doing His job of judging.
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Santana
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Im Asian and dont believe in god cus im buddhist, but the words dont offend me in no way
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Crzy4cleveland
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i dont have a problem with it....at my school all you have to do is stand during the pledge. if you dont want to say it ..you dont have to.
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eye95,Mar 9 2006
12:59 PM
Oh, and let's refrain from sayng who's going to Hell.  Don't you think that's up to God?  He frowns upon us doing His job of judging.

And this is the decision God made

John 3:16
 
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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natefizzle,Mar 9 2006
03:54 PM
And this is the decision God made

John 3:16
 
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

As a Christian, I believe with all my heart that is a decision God has indeed made. However, please note that that passage says nothing about anyone going to Hell.
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eye95,Mar 9 2006
09:29 AM
All three worship the God of Abraham. We just see, interact with, and name Him differently.

If He is really the same God, then why does he instruct all 3 to do different things individually? And why is He OK with one of the groups declaring war on the other 2? I'm sorry, but thats just ludacris to equate the God of the Bible with Allah. I have no argument against equating the God of Christianity and the God of Judaism, because He is the same. Like I said up a few post, the only difference is that Christians (and Messianic Jews) accept Jesus as the Messiah and Judaism doesn't. But they are ultimately all 3 different religions because they have different views of who their God is, how to get salvation, and what is right/wrong for them to do in life.
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