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Do you believe in God(s)?
Topic Started: Apr 5 2006, 10:48 PM (2,508 Views)
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2BCano,Jun 10 2006
10:23 AM
Thanks for your reply!

They are little things but i find that there are so many little things it makes the bigger aspects harder to believe, and there are so many things round the world that i think make a mockery of the foundations of religion.

I cant remember where it is (Mayby you will know) but a church claimed to have the Wood from Jesus's Cross and the Nails from his crucifiction, and when Scientists carbon dated one piece of the material it was found to be from 200AD the church would then not allow any other items to be carbon dated.

I would not have a problem with it if they did not claim for the relics to carry miracle working powers when they were not even the proper ones!

Its just little things like that!

Im sure mods/admins will see this is a healthy debate/discussion and wont have a problem with it continuing

2B when you carefully think about things, you are very correct when you say there are many things going on that make a mockery of religion and the bible itself for that matter. For the most part it has been brought on by religion itself.

Lots of examples to prove this. The explots of TV evangelists for instance. The veneration of so called nails that were supposed to have been used in Jesus death etc etc. We could fill a large volume with all the shenanigans that false religion has foisted on an unsuspecting public.
For those reasons alone I can understand peoples frustration with the bible as being God's word and directions to mankind.

The worst things though of course are the false teachings that have misled so many.

Burning hell fire..the trinity doctrine...all good people going to Heaven...the immortality of the soul....the lack of respect for God's name Jehovah....the trust in human governments and the mixture of church and state as opposed to God's Kingdom that will be the way that peace and prosperity will really happen....and on and on.

These are false doctrines as they are not what the bible teaches...

Jesus said at Mathew 7:16..."by their fruits you will know them"...
Here are some of the fruitages that you would expect from the true religion.
They base their teachings solely on the bible.
They worship only Jehovah and make His name known.
The show genuine love for one another.
They accept Jesus as God's means for salvation.
They are no part of the world.
They preach God's Kingdom as mankind's only hope.

As for the nails and wood that you mentioned I am not familiar with. However I do know that there are thousands of nails scattered around that have the same claim by one religion or another and did you know that there are a number of heads of John the Baptist in various churches in Europe?

Just to touch again on the subject of little things that seem to contradict other things in the bible.

Have you ever heard two people describe an event that they both witnessed? If so, did you notice that each person emphasized details that impressed him? One may have left out things that the other included. Both, however, were telling the truth. It is the same with the four Gospel accounts of Jesus’ ministry, as well as with other historical events reported by more than one Bible writer. Each writer wrote accurate information even when one retained details that another omitted. By considering all the accounts, a fuller understanding of what happened can be gained. Such variations prove that the Bible accounts are independent. And their essential harmony proves that they are true.

I hope that the comments of ours and others on here will not cause the mod's to censure the board, since it is a legitimate forum along with politics and as long as the opinions are not profane etc, there should be no question but to allow this thread to continue.

[edited to remove disparaging comments]

By the way, ve7fd@shaw.ca is where I can be reached if anyone wants to discuss things so that we dont aggravate anyone.

Also, what is your viewpoint on creationism as opposed to evolution?
Do you subscribe to the opinion that the universe came as a result of a big bang or?

Best regards
Cliff
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2B, I think it's important to be sure you're distinguishing what the Bible says and what MAN says. For centures, people have distorted, misquoted, and outright lied about the Bible to justify their actions.
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Religious History is something that im interested in so have looked at these things, i think it is also inportant to distinguish between peopples accounts beong different (Of course they will be slightly different) and them being so different that they contradict the very meaning of there teaching.

Example:

EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.

How can someone be a Man of War and Peace?? that is a straight out contradiction where as the Books of Matthew Mark Luke and John i can understand will deviate a little.

Also the Christian Crusades, for a religion that claims to bring peace to the earth that was not very evident when they were persecuting people all over the earth, is the Church not the richest institution in the World??

A result of the Crusades:

The Crusades had bolstered the commerce of the Italian cities, had generated interest in exploration of the Orient, and had established trade markets of enduring importance

SO from what i have so far seen, it is not a religion of faith, its a religion of business.
“Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living.”

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kyyankgrrl,Jun 11 2006
03:46 AM
2B, I think it's important to be sure you're distinguishing what the Bible says and what MAN says. For centures, people have distorted, misquoted, and outright lied about the Bible to justify their actions.

True.

And the most common way people do what you are saying is to quote single lines out of context, creating an impression that is untrue. 2BCano did an excellent job of finding lines that, out of context, give a misimpression. The only way to truly understand the Bible says is to read it yourself--all of it--and to study it in a group of people who genuinely want to know what it says, not push an agenda.
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There are always going to be reasons why there can never be anythign wrong with the bible blah blah blah

Dont test god, thats what the bible says right, yer thats there becasue the only way to see if he exists is to ask him to do soemthing to prove it, and by putting that in your taught that is wrong etc etc

The bible to me is as real as snow white and the 7 dwarfs
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2BCano,Jun 11 2006
06:14 AM
Religious History is something that im interested in so have looked at these things, i think it is also inportant to distinguish between peopples accounts beong different (Of course they will be slightly different) and them being so different that they contradict the very meaning of there teaching.

Example:

EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.

How can someone be a Man of War and Peace?? that is a straight out contradiction where as the Books of Matthew Mark Luke and John i can understand will deviate a little.

Also the Christian Crusades, for a religion that claims to bring peace to the earth that was not very evident when they were persecuting people all over the earth, is the Church not the richest institution in the World??

A result of the Crusades:

The Crusades had bolstered the commerce of the Italian cities, had generated interest in exploration of the Orient, and had established trade markets of enduring importance

SO from what i have so far seen, it is not a religion of faith, its a religion of business.


Good morning 2B....

Its breakfast time here in my area, west coast of Canada, so I will respond a bit later today. But I just did want to mention an interesting thing about the one scripture you quoted as indicated below.

"EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name."

I assume you are using the King James version (nothing wrong with that) since what you quoted is exactly what the King James says.

One thing you will notice is that Lord is shown in all capital letters, for instance LORD.

Did you know that since, for the most part, that the King James uses all capitals whenever it is referring to Jehovah? Only in 3 or 4 cases does it use Jehovah when speaking of almighty God. For instance Psalm 83: 18, Isaiah 12:2, Isaiah 26:4, etc...Whenever it uses Jehovah it precedes His name witrh a small caps Lord.

In the Old Testament the Hebrew letters for Jehovah YHWH appear over 7000 times, but the King James has changed it to LORD

Also note that the scripture you mention says "the LORD is His NAME."

As we all know, LORD cannot be His name since Lord is a TITLE, not a NAME. Just like King or Queen are not a name, just a title.

Just a thought until I am able to respond to your query.

Good morning to all on the board.
Cliff

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2BCano,Jun 11 2006
06:14 AM
Religious History is something that im interested in so have looked at these things, i think it is also inportant to distinguish between peopples accounts beong different (Of course they will be slightly different) and them being so different that they contradict the very meaning of there teaching.

Example:

EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.

How can someone be a Man of War and Peace?? that is a straight out contradiction where as the Books of Matthew Mark Luke and John i can understand will deviate a little.

Also the Christian Crusades, for a religion that claims to bring peace to the earth that was not very evident when they were persecuting people all over the earth, is the Church not the richest institution in the World??

A result of the Crusades:

The Crusades had bolstered the commerce of the Italian cities, had generated interest in exploration of the Orient, and had established trade markets of enduring importance

SO from what i have so far seen, it is not a religion of faith, its a religion of business.

Hi there 2B....

An interesting and thought provoking post from you as usual, so thanks for that.

You ask how He can be a "man of war" and a peaceful person as well.

You most likely know that He is referred to in this way a number of times in the bible.

Here is an illustration for you that is closer to home, for starters.

When Richard Nixon became president he mentioned some of the troubles that America was facing, but at the same time he mentioned that, as president, he was dedicating himself to the cause of peace and justice etc.
If you think about that you will no doubt agree that all or many at least of the presidents would agree wholeheartedly with that statement.


At the same time, these men are, as president, the supreme commander of the U.S. armed forces. They have many times, while working for peace, ordered the country into wars at various times.
No doubt sincerely believing that their actions would eventually lead to peace.

We know that hasnt happened, however the point is, these men were men of war, and men of peace at the same time.

Can you correlate this to Almighty God?

There were many times that he had to stand up for His people in order to prevent a possible overturning you might say of His purpose for mankind. One big reason was so that Christ as the Redeemer would eventually appear as promised.

Another case when He will be a man (symbolically speaking) of war, is what the bible refers to as the "war of the great day of God the Almighty" Rev 16:14. This being the battle of armageddon.

And conversely a God of peace when the cleansed earth and mankind are ushered in after armageddon, as the bible says "forever".
Psalm 37 refers to this time as well as other scripture.

The example you mentioned at Ex 15:3 was the occasion of the nation of Israel being delieverd from Pharaohs armies at the Red sea.
And there are many other examples.

Since Christ was to come from the kingly line of Judah, in order to have the credentials to eventually become the king of God's kingdom, Jehovah would not have allowed his purpose to be thwarted.
An act of supreme love for mankind since this is the provision He had promised in order for all mankind to reconcile themselves to Him.

Much more to that but sufficient for this occasion.

The point being that it is quite correct and no contradiction to say that He can be a man of war, or of peace, as the case may be.
He has the absolute right to adapt to situations since He is the supreme sovereign of the universe and knows what He has to do for the salvation of mankind.

As for the religious crusade. You are absolutely right. Religion is the cause for MUCH of the troubles in the world past and present. Some of the most heinous atrocities have been done in the name of God.

However, just because they CLAIMED to be doing this in the name of God doesnt make it so. Any time you look at what they did, you will see that it was NOT in line with scriptural instruction. That is just one huge reason why the bible has called the religious leaders a "generation of vipers" and many other things. And that is also why these religions of Christendom are shown in scripture to be reprehensible before God for doing all these things in His name.
And also why the bible says, "Get out of her my people if you do not want to share in her sins". Rev 18:4.

In order to not be counted among these, we must do just so. Instructions as to being a REAL Christian is easily ascertained in God's word.

Thanks again 2B. Very interesting posts.

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Thanks for your reply TO

Umm now i see what you are saying, but to me, that is still a contradiction, to be honest with you mate im gonna give plaudits to Religion, the founder of organized religion should be a business consultant and to explain what i mean i will quote you from one of my fave people George Carlin:

Quote:
 
In awe of the alltime heavy Weight champion of false promises and exaggerated claims......Religion.....Oraganized religion... its no contest. Religion easily has the best Bull Story of all time... Think about it. Religion has convinced people, that there is an invisible man living in the sky. Who watches everything you do, every minute of every day, and the invisible man has a list of 10 things that he doesnt want you to do. And if you do any of these things, he will send you to a special place, of burning and fire,smoke and torture and anguish, for you to live for ever and suffer and burn and scream untill the end of time............But he loves you,he loves you, he loves you and he needs money, he all powerfull, all present all knowing and all wise, he just cant handle money. Religion takes in Billions of $'s and pay no Taxes and somehow they always need money.


Now that is put in the simplest form imaginable, but no disrespect to you or to any religious person, but i look at things like that, sit back and just cant help but laugh, i cant help but look at that and think my god, and millions of people actually believe that.

I dont mean to disrespect you but thats the way i look at it
“Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living.”

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2BCano,Jun 13 2006
01:29 PM
Thanks for your reply TO

Umm now i see what you are saying, but to me, that is still a contradiction, to be honest with you mate im gonna give plaudits to Religion, the founder of organized religion should be a business consultant and to explain what i mean i will quote you from one of my fave people George Carlin:



Now that is put in the simplest form imaginable, but no disrespect to you or to any religious person, but i look at things like that, sit back and just cant help but laugh, i cant help but look at that and think my god, and millions of people actually believe that.

I dont mean to disrespect you but thats the way i look at it

Good to hear from you 2B...

No offense taken from your quote by the way.

What Carlin has said is pretty much true. FALSE religion has done these things, and more. Is it any wonder that people have lost respect for God and His word the bible?

Here is an excerpt from what he said as you quoted him...

"the invisible man has a list of 10 things that he doesnt want you to do. And if you do any of these things, he will send you to a special place, of burning and fire,smoke and torture and anguish, for you to live for ever and suffer and burn and scream untill the end of time"

This is an absolute falsehood and one of the false doctrines of organized religions per se. Although, you may have noticed that MANY religions are backing away from this doctrine as its not good for business. It was good for business for many many years but not any more.

A burning place of torment is not biblical and does not exist. And as for JW's, there are no collection plates, no wages are paid to anyone except for a very small allowance in the order of $114 a month (per my memory) to certain ones who 24/7 give of their time in voluntary service such as overseeing the needs of a number of congregations in his assignment. They are also re-imbursed for any funds out of pocket in doing this.

Mr. Carlin paints all religions with the same brush, and rightly so for the most part, but he has not taken into account what the true religions activities are and what they preach as truth from the bible.
JW's rely ONLY on bible teachings and as you can see it is not the way Mr. Carlin seen things. The proof is in the pudding so to speak.

Again thanks for your comments. Its easy to see that you have put a lot of thought and research into them. Many people dont do that.

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Hey TO, thanks, i try and portray my opinions in the best way without causing offense, harder said than done sometimes.

I agree that religion has been its own downfall, i can see why people would lose faith in it through the years, im sure i read somewhere that more people have been killed ' in the name of god' through history than any other way.

and the way i see it the 10 commandments were a way of social control, a good way to control people is to give them orders from 'God' a few elite interlectuals could easily rule the uneducated society through this measure, thats what i believe anyway.

As always good to see your post, as i have said before, History is my subject and religious history holds particular interest to me.
“Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living.”

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I also believe in god like many.
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guy.,Jun 13 2006
07:00 PM
I also believe in god like many.

Guy...I think its very commendable that many of the folks on here have stated that they believe in God.

There is something in all this for people to consider.

Belief in God is one thing...doing His will quite another.

To illustrate at James 2 verse 19 it says "You believe there is one God do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder".

So simply believing there is a God is not enough to gain salvation. More is needed and that is what Jesus was referring to at John 17 verse 3. "This means everlasting life, their taking in KNOWLEDGE of you, the only true God, and the one you sent forth, Jesus Christ".

Please understand. I am not saying that you or anyone else on here is not doing enough. I am only saying what the bible makes clear. Knowledge of God and Christ is essential for everlasting life.
That knowledge comes from serious study of God's word and applying that knowledge in each of our lives.

Nice to have you on this thread guy, and all the others who believe there is a true God.



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*NYY* YES BORN-AGAIN CHRISTIAN since 3/5/84......JESUS CHRIST has come in the flesh.....and his personal sacrfice of BLOOD is that by which i am JUSTIFIED and SEALED for the DAY of REDEMPTION. :D
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Telegraph-operator,Jun 13 2006
07:32 PM
Guy...I think its very commendable that many of the folks on here have stated that they believe in God.

There is something in all this for people to consider.

Belief in God is one thing...doing His will quite another.

To illustrate at James 2 verse 19 it says "You believe there is one God do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder".

So simply believing there is a God is not enough to gain salvation. More is needed and that is what Jesus was referring to at John 17 verse 3. "This means everlasting life, their taking in KNOWLEDGE of you, the only true God, and the one you sent forth, Jesus Christ".

Please understand. I am not saying that you or anyone else on here is not doing enough. I am only saying what the bible makes clear. Knowledge of God and Christ is essential for everlasting life.
That knowledge comes from serious study of God's word and applying that knowledge in each of our lives.

Nice to have you on this thread guy, and all the others who believe there is a true God.

sounds like bible study aroung here
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JABlovesastros,Jun 14 2006
12:46 PM
Telegraph-operator,Jun 13 2006
07:32 PM
Guy...I think its very commendable that many of the folks on here have stated that they believe in God.

There is something  in all this for people to consider.

Belief in God is one thing...doing His will quite another.

To illustrate at James 2 verse 19 it says "You believe there is one God do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder".

So simply believing there is a God is not enough to gain salvation. More is needed and that is what Jesus was referring to at John 17 verse 3. "This means everlasting life, their taking in KNOWLEDGE of you, the only true God, and the one you sent forth, Jesus Christ".

Please understand. I am not saying that you or anyone else on here is not doing enough. I am only saying what the bible makes clear. Knowledge of God and Christ is essential for everlasting life.
That knowledge comes from serious study of God's word and applying that knowledge in each of our lives.

Nice to have you on this thread guy, and all the others who believe there is a true God.

sounds like bible study aroung here

Hey JAB...Yeah it does, doesnt it.
Well I would think thats natural as these threads are a discussion forum. You would probably find the same kinds of posts if this was a politics thread, or war in Iraq or etc etc, even baseball for that matter.

Its what we are supposed to do. Express ourselves and expect others to come back with their own expressions.

Sounds good to me otherwise these threads would be boring and have little or no value, or use for that matter.

Have a good one and give us your thoughts. Be careful, you might have to back them up with sound reasonings !!!!!


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well for me....yes i do believe in God...i believe i he created me out of thin air and now im here on earth enjoying life...playing my passion, baseball

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JABlovesastros,Jun 14 2006
02:17 PM
well for me....yes i do believe in God...i believe i he created me out of thin air and now im here on earth enjoying life...playing my passion, baseball

God Created you?? or God created Man originally?
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what do u mean...

yes i was created like millions of other people
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JABlovesastros,Jun 14 2006
02:20 PM
what do u mean...

yes i was created like millions of other people

I mean it is one think thinking that he created Adam and then eve from Adams rib :blink:

So what you think that you were brought onto this earth by God literally?? not by your parents
“Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living.”

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