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| Do you have the true religion? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 30 2007, 12:23 PM (2,019 Views) | |
| T-O | Sep 7 2007, 02:45 PM Post #41 |
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Excellent post MO. And nice to see you back by the way. I think that is the crux of the situation. They sometimes said years ago that "all roads lead to London". In other words, it didnt really matter what you believe. But we know that only "one" road leads to London to coin a phrase. And its imperative to find that road. |
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| kyyankgrrl | Sep 8 2007, 01:35 AM Post #42 |
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Feminist & Proud
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If my Wiccan faith gave me peace, hope, and guidance on how to treat others and myself, I would have been happy with it and not sought another faith. The same religion we proclaim as the one "true" religion - Christianity - has profitted from slavery and condoned wife-beating and racial segregation. We worship a God who is all-powerful, but sits and watches as horrors beyond imagination happen every single day. It takes enormous strength and commitment to be a person of faith in the world today. So to constantly be told that your faith is the "wrong" one is extremely disrespectful and rude. You push people hard enough, and maybe they'll look at the world and look at their faith and say "why even bother". Good to see you again Mo! |
![]() Sig by Detroittigerfan28 In politics, if you want anything said, ask a man; if you want anything done, ask a woman. - Margaret Thatcher I never married because there was no need. I have three pets at home which answer the same purpose as a husband. I have a dog that growls every morning, a parrot that swears all afternoon, and a cat that comes home late at night - Marie Corelli (19th century author) Faith is taking the first step even when you don't see the whole staircase. - Martin Luther King, Jr. | |
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| MoRivera | Sep 8 2007, 10:56 AM Post #43 |
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Obi-Wan Kenobi
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Thanks, its good to see you again too! What I'm getting here at is you and I believe Jesus is the savior of this world. He himself said that you can not get to the Father if you don't go through him. You and I see this as true, and we both firmly believe it. With this being known, we'd both agree that Islam is a "false faith". While Jesus worked peace and did miracles, Mohammad fought bloody crusades. Of all the religious figures, Jesus Christ was the only one to rise from the dead. We would see Buddhisms as a "false faith" We are asked to proclaim the Good News of Christ. We are asked to help others find their way. Does this involve trying to assist Muslims? Yes, I believe it does. Where would we have been today if Jesus didn't teach? Where would we be if Jesus kept his great amount of faith to himself? Being a "closet" Christian isn't doing what we are asked to do. As much as I disagree with a lot of Telegraph's thinking and philosophy, he surely does his share! Mother Teresa once said "I love all faiths, but I am deeply in love with my own. Non-Christians lack the true joy of Jesus." To add, you can't blame God for mans fault. |
| Jesus built one Church. He also said to follow Him. If you are not in His Church, you aren't following very well. | |
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| kyyankgrrl | Sep 8 2007, 02:58 PM Post #44 |
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Feminist & Proud
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I am just not comfortable forcing my beliefs on other people. If someone seems to need help, or asks me for help, I am more than willing to share my faith. But I could never, ever tell someone that their faith is "wrong" because it is not the same as mine. When speaking of "spreading the Word", I am reminded of the Christian missionaries who used their "spiritual" work to spread disease and death to native Americans and other native people in Central and South America and throughout Africa. These same "Christians" also preached "the Divine Right of Kings," justifying royalty living lavishly while others starved and lived in poverty; they also preached to enslaved Africans that their lot in life was "God's will". So much hatred, death, and destruction has filled this world, all in the name of "Christianity." I do not blame God for man's wrong doing; however, I am hard pressed to demand that others believe as I do. So how am I a Christian? I believe in the Bible passage about not hiding your light under a bush, but letting your light so shine that others might see it. I don't hit others over the head with my faith; I let them see how it directs my life. And I have been told, more than once, that I have inspired or influenced a person's life. That's my way of "spreading the Word". |
![]() Sig by Detroittigerfan28 In politics, if you want anything said, ask a man; if you want anything done, ask a woman. - Margaret Thatcher I never married because there was no need. I have three pets at home which answer the same purpose as a husband. I have a dog that growls every morning, a parrot that swears all afternoon, and a cat that comes home late at night - Marie Corelli (19th century author) Faith is taking the first step even when you don't see the whole staircase. - Martin Luther King, Jr. | |
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| T-O | Sep 9 2007, 02:17 PM Post #45 |
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Hi KY… Your thoughts are valid, but misunderstood. Lots of people we run into think that way because they don’t perceive the motives. We take our example from Jesus always, and he obviously had the true religion, being the son of God and sent to earth to redeem mankind. Anyone who believes and tries to live by bible principles believes this. Your quote: I am just not comfortable forcing my beliefs on other people. If someone seems to need help, or asks me for help, I am more than willing to share my faith. But I could never, ever tell someone that their faith is "wrong" because it is not the same as mine. At no time will JW's try to force their beliefs on anyone. Persistent in telling the good news? Yes. But we leave in peace if no one wants to listen. Same as on this thread. I can only say and answer other folks comments by what the bible teaches about things. If someone takes exception to that it is unfortunate, but at no time would I ridicule anyone for believing otherwise. Jesus in very strong language, condemned the teachings of the Pharisees (the religious clergy) of his day, and he sent out his apostles and other disciples to preach about the good news of God’s kingdom. The reason for that was he knew that when Jehovah God would set up that kingdom, that it would be his instrument for correcting all things, restoring faithful mankind to a paradise earth, and would vindicate Jehovah’s name since it has been maligned so much throughout the earth. Those ones he sent out were to reason with people and try to help them understand what God’s will is. NOT to put them down, and that certainly has not been my intention on these threads and I apologize to anyone who has taken this idea from my posts.. At the same time it would serve as a warning to all those who turned their backs on the “truth” from God’s word, since those who doggedly stick to false religions would NOT inherit God’s new order. The reason for this is simple.. If everyone was allowed, in spite of their false religious beliefs and bad habits then we would have the same conditions of wickedness and sorrow that we have always had. This has not changed. The instructions from the bible are still the same all this time. True Christians will do this work that Jesus commanded. It is not a matter of running down people’s belief’s but rather we must do as the bible says and that is to REASON together, and to understand if these teachings really are so. And Romans 12:2 gives this necessary command, “And quit being fashioned after this system of things, but be transformed by making your mind over, that you may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God”. Many in Jesus day thought of themselves as having the true religion, but refused to accept the teachings of and what it means to be a real Christian. For instance the apostle Paul said at Acts 17: 2,3 … So according to Paul’s custom he went inside to them, and for three sabbaths he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving by references that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and [saying]: “This is the Christ, this Jesus whom I am publishing to you. Proverbs 16:25 points out the exact situation that we are referring to.. “There exists a way that is upright before a man, but the ways of death are the end of it afterward”. Many people today feel that their way is correct, or simply are self satisfied to the point as you say. They are content to sit back, and only share their faith with those who come to them and ask for help. That is 100% diametrically opposite to what Jesus said we should do. We MUST go to them, not wait for them to come to us. Jesus said his true followers would be “fishers” of men. That implies that we must go looking for honest hearted ones who want to live by God’s standards, not their own. A writer for Newsweek magazine made this observation that the clergy of all religions including so called Christian religions in particular, are not following Jesus example of being fishers of men, but 100% opposite. They sit in church on Sunday, ring the bell, and expect people to come to them. They are not “fishers of men” but rather they are only “keepers of the aquarium” as he put it. How true. Your quote… When speaking of "spreading the Word", I am reminded of the Christian missionaries who used their "spiritual" work to spread disease and death to native Americans and other native people in Central and South America and throughout Africa. These same "Christians" also preached "the Divine Right of Kings," justifying royalty living lavishly while others starved and lived in poverty; they also preached to enslaved Africans that their lot in life was "God's will". It is very true that some of the most heinous crimes perpetrated against mankind have been done by so called Christian religions. This is where many people do not distinguish between “true” religion but have made the mistake of thinking that just because you are thought of as a “Christian” religion, it does not follow that you really are a “Christian”. A real Christian, follows the teachings of Christ and the word of God. Can you imagine Jesus, who had the true religion, doing any of the things that so called Christians have done down through the ages. Not by any stretch of the imagination. So therefore again the question arises. Who really are “true” Christians. Jesus said that “by their fruits you would know them”. Which religion on the face of the earth today is producing the kind of fruits that Jesus himself exhibited while on earth? The ones who do not kill their fellow man, in this worlds wars and otherwise, especially those of the same “faith”, who do not steal, commit murder, beat up on others, who do not invade homes? Well, the list could fill a page or two. At the same time who are those who love their neighbor to the point that you will take the good news of God’s kingdom to all the earth that Jesus said would happen “in the last days”? Mathew 24:14 as an example… “And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come”. Jesus said this WOULD happen. Who is doing it? That is, who are the ones taking "the good news of GODS KINGDOM" to the entire earth? JW’s are the ONLY ones, and we are doing it worldwide as we speak, in over 235 lands and islands of the sea. MANY are accepting the good news, while MANY are not. But this is the work that Jesus said MUST take place before the end comes to wicked mankind. JW’s are persecuted terribly up to and including being put to death for their efforts in proclaiming this good news of God’s kingdom and helping to sanctify Jehovah’s name in the earth. This has been true since Jesus day and is happening right now as we speak. JW’s are banned in about 26 countries RIGHT NOW and have been banned in many countries even a few short years ago, such as Canada. For what? For telling people about God’s new world order under his kingdom with Christ as its king. This is not to boast. It is just what Jesus commanded of people of the true religion, his followers. And he said, if they have persecuted me, they will persecute you also. And JW’s are not calling on people to put them down, ridicule their beliefs, or anything else. It is out of love for neighbor and an attempt to reason with people so that they too can understand what God requires of people in order to gain life in a paradise like world soon at hand. But it would be absolutely wrong to know the truth and not attempt to interest others in it. Sorry for the length of this. I hope I said it in such a way that no offence will be taken, and perhaps some can understand a little of what I am trying to say. |
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| Graham | Sep 9 2007, 06:14 PM Post #46 |
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Joba. Dominant.
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T-O do you believe that non-Christians (Muslims, Atheists, and Jews) go to hell after they die? |
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| zackboomer | Sep 9 2007, 06:15 PM Post #47 |
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DHB's Greatest Member
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He does. |
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| Graham | Sep 9 2007, 06:18 PM Post #48 |
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Joba. Dominant.
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Does that mean Jesus is in hell because he was a Jew, along with every single person that was born before Jesus, since they couldn't possible worship him? |
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| zackboomer | Sep 9 2007, 06:20 PM Post #49 |
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I guess?
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| T-O | Sep 10 2007, 12:10 AM Post #50 |
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I see Zack has already answered for me but let me qualify. It all depends on what your idea of hell is. As I have said numerous times on here there is no such place as a burning fiery hell of torment. The hell that is taught in the bible comes from the Hebrew word Sheol used in the Old testament manuscripts that the bible was translated from. The New Testament uses the word Hades. Both of these words have at times been translated as hell in many versions of the bible, usually to try and back up the claims of some that hell is a place of burning torment, which it def is not. Hence, all who die have gone to hell if you wish to call it that, but the proper word in grave, both of which Sheol and Hades literally mean, nothing more than a grave. No fire, no roasting, nothing. Yes, the dead have gone to the common grave of mankind. Doesnt matter who or what they were, they and we all go to the common grave of mankind. There is a lot of info in the bible to back this up. Also when you think about it, the same people who say the bible teaches of a burning hell, will tell you that when you die your "soul" leaves your body. Good ones to heaven and bad ones to hell. But consider.. Fire is a literal thing, a physical thing. Whereas a soul according to these ones is a spirit. Tell me, how can a spirit be tormented in a physical fire? Doesnt make any sense does it? Here is the point. The bible says that the soul is you. Genesis 2 verse 4... "And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul". It does not say came to "have" a soul. It also points out that animals and fish are souls, just like a man is a soul. The bible says that when you die you are conscious of nothing at all. from Ecc 9 verse 5... "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all....." The bible does not say that all good people go to heaven. As a matter of fact the bible says that Jesus was the FIRST to ever go to heaven. Sort of throws a monkey wrench into the idea that all good people go to heaven when they die, instantly as religions will tell you. ALL people before Jesus death simply died and went to the common grave. After Jesus time, the bible shows that there will be a small number who will be given heavenly life but by far the vast majority of faithful mankind will enjoy life on earth in paradise like conditions. The faithful ones who have died, whatever their ethnic origin, will all be included in this reward. You name it, any race of mankind is acceptable to Jehovah. So, any hope for those who have already died over the ages? Yes.. The bible in various places assures us of a resurrection from the dead. |
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| T-O | Sep 10 2007, 12:22 AM Post #51 |
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I dont want to overlap what I have already said. Just one point. Yes, Jesus spent better than three days in "hell" if thats what some religions want to call the Greek word Hades. Even the Catholic bible says Jesus went to hell. The proper translation being grave since Hades literally is grave. Strange tho, as most religions believe hell to be a fiery torment, and yet many bibles that these religions use will say Jesus went to hell. Odd huh? As a man, Jesus did not possess a soul that was seperate from his body any more than any other man/woman. And oh by the way, you mentioned that those who have died before Jesus time couldnt possibly worship him. That too is an error. At no time was Jesus to be worshipped, not then, not now. He himself said... Mathew 4 verse 10... Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service". |
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| MoRivera | Sep 10 2007, 02:47 PM Post #52 |
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Obi-Wan Kenobi
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Although Jesus was a Jew, he taught differently than the traditional Jewish teaching at the time. The Jews don't believe that Jesus is the Son of God. This should end all questions right there. Second, Jesus is the savior of the world. With Adam and Eve's sin, people lost their way to Heaven. It was Jesus who re-opened the gates, where all the just went. Jesus then went to "Hell" to preach the news and deliver those then "punished" souls to paradise. |
| Jesus built one Church. He also said to follow Him. If you are not in His Church, you aren't following very well. | |
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| T-O | Sep 10 2007, 03:47 PM Post #53 |
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Your quote...Jesus then went to "Hell" to preach the news and deliver those then "punished" souls to paradise. MO.. Your bible evidence to show that statement is correct please. I have never seen that in the bible unless I misunderstand your comment. |
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| MoRivera | Sep 10 2007, 04:21 PM Post #54 |
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Obi-Wan Kenobi
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I did some research. The Baltimore Catechism lists: 5. Q. Whither did Christ's soul go after His death? A. After Christ's death His soul descended into hell. 86. Q. Did Christ's soul descend into the hell of the damned? A. The hell into which Christ's soul descended was not the hell of the damned, but a place or state of rest called Limbo, where the souls of the just were waiting for Him. Hell had many meanings in olden times. The grave was sometimes called hell. Jacob, when he heard that wild beasts had devoured his son Joseph, said: "I will go down with sorrow into hell." He meant the grave. Limbo is not the same as Purgatory. It does not exist now, or, if it does, is only for little children who have never committed actual sin and who have died without Baptism. They will never get into Heaven or see God, but they will not have to suffer pains as they who are in Purgatory or Hell endure. 87. Q. Why did Christ descend into Limbo? A. Christ descended into Limbo to preach to the souls who were in prison-that is, to announce to them the joyful tidings of their redemption. Also, the Catechism of Pius X lists: A: The Fifth Article of the Creed teaches us that the Soul of Jesus Christ, on being separated from His Body, descended to the Limbo of the holy Fathers, and that on the third day it became united once more to His Body, never to be parted from it again. 2 Q: What is here meant by hell? A: Hell here means the Limbo of the holy Fathers, that is, the place where the souls of the just were detained, in expectation of redemption through Jesus Christ. 3 Q: Why were not the souls of the Holy Fathers admitted into heaven before the death of Jesus Christ? A: The souls of the holy Fathers were not admitted into heaven before the death of Jesus Christ, because heaven was closed by the sin of Adam, and it was but fitting that Jesus Christ, who reopened it by His death, should be the first to enter it. We can see in 1 Peter 3:19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison |
| Jesus built one Church. He also said to follow Him. If you are not in His Church, you aren't following very well. | |
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| T-O | Sep 11 2007, 06:35 PM Post #55 |
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MO.. Looks like you did a fair amount of research. I won't comment on it all, just one point at this time since you didn’t give much biblical backing up for what the catechism says but I think I know what you are driving at even though you had no biblical evidence to back up the terms “limbo” and “purgatory”. They don’t actually exist in the holy bible. However, lets again look at some info that shows what the bible really says about soul. It is that man and all living creatures ARE living souls, they do not HAVE a living soul as distinct from the body. Your quote… 5. Q. Whither did Christ's soul go after His death? As I have shown many times from the bible, that man does not have an immortal soul, but rather IS a soul. Here is a bit more information on this. Just keep in mind that if man IS a soul, then when the man or animal dies, that soul has died. The bible says “the soul that is sinning, it shall die”. It does not have immortality, does not live on after a body dies and neither spends eternity in heaven or hell. It is dead unless Jehovah so chooses to resurrect it at some point. Resurrect meaning to bring back to life. To quote directly from the King James…. Genesis 2 verse 7… “And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul”. Note it says he “became a living soul”. Christs body did not have a distinct soul, that lived on after his body died. It may state that in the catechism, but it does not state that in the bible. More on all your post later.. Here is some info on “soul”. From the bible and secular sources, including quotes from Catholic publications. As a Catholic I am sure you will want to note these quotes in particular. The original-language terms (Hebrew, ne´phesh) and Greek, psy·khe) as used in the Scriptures show “soul” to be a person, an animal, or the life that a person or an animal enjoys. The connotations that the English “soul” commonly carries in the minds of most persons are not in agreement with the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words as used by the inspired Bible writers. This fact has steadily gained wider acknowledgment. Back in 1897, in the Journal of Biblical Literature (Vol. XVI, p. 30), Professor C. A. Briggs, as a result of detailed analysis of the use of ne´phesh, observed: “Soul in English usage at the present time conveys usually a very different meaning from (ne´phesh) in Hebrew, and it is easy for the incautious reader to misinterpret.” More recently, when The Jewish Publication Society of America issued a new translation of the Torah, or first five books of the Bible, the editor-in-chief, H. M. Orlinsky of Hebrew Union College, stated that the word “soul” had been virtually eliminated from this translation because, “the Hebrew word in question here is ‘Nefesh.’” He added: “Other translators have interpreted it to mean ‘soul,’ which is completely inaccurate. The Bible does not say we have a soul. ‘Nefesh’ is the person himself, his need for food, the very blood in his veins, his being.”—The New York Times, October 12, 1962. What is the origin of the teaching that the human soul is invisible and immortal? The difficulty lies in the fact that the meanings popularly attached to the English word “soul” stem primarily, not from the Hebrew or Christian Greek Scriptures, but from ancient Greek philosophy, actually pagan religious thought. Greek philosopher Plato, for example, quotes Socrates as saying: “The soul, . . . if it departs pure, dragging with it nothing of the body, . . . goes away into that which is like itself, into the invisible, divine, immortal, and wise, and when it arrives there it is happy, freed from error and folly and fear . . . and all the other human ills, and . . . lives in truth through all after time with the gods.”—Phaedo, 80, D, E; 81, A. In direct contrast with the Greek teaching of the psy·khe´ (soul) as being immaterial, intangible, invisible, and immortal, the Scriptures show that both psy·khe´ and ne´phesh, as used with reference to earthly creatures, refer to that which is material, tangible, visible, and mortal. The New Catholic Encyclopedia says: “Nepes [ne´phesh] is a term of far greater extension than our ‘soul,’ signifying life (Ex 21.23; Dt 19.21) and its various vital manifestations: breathing (Gn 35.18; Jb 41.13[21]), blood [Gn 9.4; Dt 12.23; Ps 140(141).8], desire (2 Sm 3.21; Prv 23.2). The soul in the Old Testament means not a part of man, but the whole man—man as a living being. Similarly, in the New Testament it signifies human life: the life of an individual, conscious subject (Mt 2.20; 6.25; Lk 12.22-23; 14.26; Jn 10.11, 15, 17; 13.37).”—1967, Vol. XIII, p. 467. The Roman Catholic translation, The New American Bible, in its “Glossary of Biblical Theology Terms” (pp. 27, 28), says: “In the New Testament, to ‘save one’s soul’ (Mk 8:35) does not mean to save some ‘spiritual’ part of man, as opposed to his ‘body’ (in the Platonic sense) but the whole person, with emphasis on the fact that the person is living, desiring, loving and willing, etc., in addition to being concrete and physical.”—Edition published by P. J. Kenedy & Sons, New York, 1970. Ne´phesh evidently comes from a root meaning “breathe” and in a literal sense ne´phesh could be rendered as “a breather.” Koehler and Baumgartner’s Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros (Leiden, 1958, p. 627) defines it as: “the breathing substance, making man and animal living beings Gn 1, 20. Soul = living being, individual, person.” The ancient Greek writers applied psy·khe´ in various ways and were not consistent, their personal and religious philosophies influencing their use of the term. Of Plato, to whose philosophy the common ideas about the English “soul” may be attributed (as is generally acknowledged), it is stated: “While he sometimes speaks of one of (the alleged) three parts of the soul, the ‘intelligible,’ as necessarily immortal, while the other two parts are mortal, he also speaks as if there were two souls in one body, one immortal and divine, the other mortal.” The Evangelical Quarterly, London, 1931, Vol. III, p. 121, “Thoughts on the Tripartite Theory of Human Nature,” by A. McCaig. In view of such inconsistency in non-Biblical writings, it is essential to let the Scriptures speak for themselves, showing what the inspired writers meant by their use of the term psy·khe´, as well as by ne´phesh. Ne´phesh occurs 754 times in the Masoretic text of the Hebrew Scriptures, Old Testament, while psy·khe´ appears by itself 102 times in the Westcott and Hort text of the Christian Greek Scriptures, New Testament, giving a total of 856 occurrences. This frequency of occurrence makes possible a clear concept of the sense that these terms conveyed to the minds of the inspired Bible writers and the sense their writings should convey to our mind. Among the Bible writers there was no inconsistency, confusion, or disharmony as to man’s nature, as existed among the Grecian philosophers of the so-called Classical Period. Earth’s First Souls. The initial occurrences of ne´phesh are found at Genesis 1:20-23. On the fifth creative “day” God said: “‘Let the waters swarm forth a swarm of living souls [ne´phesh] and let flying creatures fly over the earth . . . ’ And God proceeded to create the great sea monsters and every living soul (ne´phesh) that moves about, which the waters swarmed forth according to their kinds, and every winged flying creature according to its kind.” Similarly on the sixth creative “day” ne´phesh is applied to the “domestic animal and moving animal and wild beast of the earth” as “living souls.”—Ge 1:24. Although this takes careful reading, it is important to know what Hebrew and Greek words were used in the original translated manuscripts when speaking of soul and what these words really meant. It is wrong to try and attach any meaning to the original words other than what they really DID mean. But some religious organizations and bible translators have done this to further their own teachings. |
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| MoRivera | Sep 11 2007, 10:20 PM Post #56 |
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Obi-Wan Kenobi
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The word Trinity is not in the Bible. Does that mean that it doesn't exist. The Bible doesn't mention the word "abortion". Does that mean its not wrong? The Bible doesn't mention the machine guns. Does that mean that every citizen should own one? Jesus taught us to say "Our Father who art in Heaven" This means that our Father (God) is in Heaven. Jesus told us he was going to the Father. Can we connect that this means Jesus is ascending into Heaven? Why, then, did Jesus tell the man "Today, you will be with me in paradise"? If Jesus is dying and going to Heaven (as he claimed), and told the man "you will be with me", then did that man not go to Heaven? If Christs soul "died", are you saying that Jesus is no more? When you read about "those who sin shall die", we are speaking of "deserve Hell". Not that they should be killed on the spot. Surely, our sinning makes us not worthy of God's kingdom. This is why we believe Jesus died for OUR sins, so he can take them upon himself. The human body is born sinful, because our mother was sinful. In order to cleanse our sins to stand in Gods presence, we must visit purgatory. |
| Jesus built one Church. He also said to follow Him. If you are not in His Church, you aren't following very well. | |
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| T-O | Sep 12 2007, 12:39 AM Post #57 |
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MO.. Your quote.. The word Trinity is not in the Bible. Does that mean that it doesn't exist. No, the fact that the actual word is not in the bible doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, since more modern language may term it otherwise. However, the fact that the bible does not teach the Trinity doctrine..that is what means it doesn’t exist. Your quote… Jesus taught us to say "Our Father who art in Heaven" This means that our Father (God) is in Heaven. If our Father God is in heaven, and if Jesus prayed to him and showed his followers how to pray to him, does that not indicate that the Trinity is not true? Jesus on earth, praying to “his and our Father in heaven”.. Your quote.. Jesus told us he was going to the Father. Again, if Jesus was GOING to the Father, does that not indicate the Trinity is not true? Your quote.. Can we connect that this means Jesus is ascending into Heaven? Why, then, did Jesus tell the man "Today, you will be with me in paradise"? If Jesus is dying and going to Heaven (as he claimed), and told the man "you will be with me", then did that man not go to Heaven? Tell me MO.. when did the evildoer actually go to heaven? When did Jesus actually go back to heaven? From the bible please.. Was it the same day that they were crucified?. Apparently not according to the bible since Jesus didn’t return to heaven till 40 days later. So what does that word “today” mean? Many religions get that one very confused. Your quote.. If Christs soul "died", are you saying that Jesus is no more? When you read about "those who sin shall die", we are speaking of "deserve Hell". Not that they should be killed on the spot. Surely, our sinning makes us not worthy of God's kingdom. Jesus died in the flesh as a man. Since your soul is you, yes Jesus as a soul died and had no thoughts, nothing, while in his tomb in the death state. That is completely consistent with what I have been telling you about a soul. But no, Jesus did not stay dead. He was resurrected to life as a spirit, not as a man. 1 Peter 3: verse 18 … “ Why, even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous [person] for unrighteous ones, that he might lead you to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit”. This was evident by the fact that later on he materialized in fleshly form to prove that he had been resurrected, but not in his original body. If he had come alive in his original fleshly body, then that would have cancelled the ransom he provided. That is, he gave his life in that body. If he took it back, the ransom would have been for naught. If you pay a ransom and then take it back, then the ransom would have no meaning. And as you know he even materialized to his apostles even though the door was closed and locked. Could a fleshly body have come through solid walls? No. He was resurrected as a spirit. And when Mary saw him after he had been resurrected, she thought he must be the gardener. Surely she and all the apostles would have recognized him if he had been resurrected in his original body. Remember “doubting Thomas”. Same thing with him. He didn’t recognize Jesus either. If you read also the very next verse, that is 1 Peter 3 verses 19 and 20: you will see that being resurrected as a spirit, he went and preached to the spirits in prison. He could not have done that if he was just a fleshly man. The verse reads along with verse 20: “In this [state] also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water”. Your quote.. This is why we believe Jesus died for our sins, so he can take them upon himself. The human body is born sinful, because our mother was sinful. In order to cleanse our sins to stand in Gods presence, we must visit purgatory. Most of this is correct, but not the part about purgatory. Can you show me from the bible any proof that this was true?? |
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| T-O | Sep 14 2007, 01:31 AM Post #58 |
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MO, I dont want to seem to be picking on you because I dont intend for it to be that way, but you are a bible believer. Can you or any other bible believer answer the questions I had in my last post, from the bible that is? That is after all the place that all our answers should come from, and or the points we are trying to make. Thanks |
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| Caulfield | Sep 18 2007, 09:33 PM Post #59 |
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Master of the Sardonic Arts
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I'm still sticking with Buddhism being the right way. |
| "To be a man you must have honor; honor and a peeeeeeeeeeeeenis!" | |
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| T-O | Sep 18 2007, 11:10 PM Post #60 |
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Why? |
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