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Feminists are best!
Topic Started: Oct 18 2007, 11:49 AM (877 Views)
kyyankgrrl
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Jayhawk Bill,Oct 18 2007
06:52 PM
kyyankgrrl,Oct 18 2007
05:25 PM
Jayhawk Bill,Oct 18 2007
04:55 PM
I know that feminists regard themselves to be these things.  My experience, however, is that others often regard self-described feminists to be less beautiful, romantic and sexy than they personally might believe.

Yes, I was responding to this. Particularly the insinuation that a woman with a functioning brain is automatically unattractive.

"A woman with a functioning brain is automatically unattractive?" That may have been inferred by you, but it's certainly not what I said.

Do you assume females who are not self-described feminists to lack a functioning brain? That appears to be the only way that your words would make sense...they'd still be wrong, but your own thought process would be logical if you had made that one of your core assumptions.

***

What I'm pointing out is a flaw in the study's methodology not reported by your initial link. You posted a thread titled "Feminists are best!" A more accurate title, given the findings of the study reported, might be "Feminists Consider Themselves Best!"

Here's a critical part of the summary, previously linked:

Quote:
 
The authors also tested the validity of feminist stereotypical beliefs amongst their two samples, based on the hypothesis that if feminist stereotypes are accurate, then feminist women should be more likely to report themselves as being single, lesbian, or sexually unattractive, compared with non-feminist women.

Rudman and Phelan found no support for this hypothesis amongst their study participants.


This is a valuable finding: feminists do not consider themselves "single, lesbian, or sexually unattractive, compared with non-feminist women." That answers important issues regarding self-worth and self-esteem among self-described feminists.

It leaves unanswered, however, how others consider feminists to be. I previously posted, "...others often regard self-described feminists to be less beautiful, romantic and sexy than they personally might believe." If you'd like, I can reference links to support that people often have such opinions, but one would be that such views were described as "feminist stereotypical beliefs" in the quote above--even the study's publisher agrees with my assertion.

From what I'm reading, the study didn't disprove those opinions--it concentrated on the self-image of self-described feminists, not others' perceptions of self-described feminists.

***

I'd be eager to read the entire study, especially with respect to methodology, the population from which the samples were drawn (the "older" participants were cited to be age 26, a very young age for "older" participants). I'd also like to check statistical significance of results, something unmentioned in either the popular press or in the free online summary.

Barring that, it appears that the Associate Professor and the PhD candidate who wrote this may have made a logic jump: assuming social gifts of one's self does not reliably indicate possession of those gifts.

***

If you choose to respond, I'd be eager for you to answer my question posed above: Do you assume females who are not self-described feminists to lack a functioning brain?

In any case, thanks for considering my criticism of the research work.

Females who base their self-worth on men lack functioning brains. When we are defined purely by our sexuality or reproductive capability, our brains are completely negated. Women have more to offer this world than what we have between our legs. A feminist, IMO, is a woman who makes her life choices based on more than sexual stereotypes and the restrictions of traditional "roles". Any woman who values herself less - a non-feminist - is lacking a functional brain.

I titled this thread "Feminists are best" because it is beyond my understanding why a man would want a relationship with a woman with no opinions and no voice in that relationship. A man who wants that would do well to invest in an inflatable woman - one who satisfies his "urges" in silence.

When men feel threatened, they usually lash out at another's sexuality. So it is no surprise that many men consider feminists to be "unattractive lesbians". These are the same men, when confronted with the extraordinary good looks and talents of Alex Rodriguez, refer to him as "Gay Rod". I have been a woman for a long time and am well versed in the knee-jerk reactions of insecure men. So spare me your research.

You seem to be overlooking the fact that the survey was not conducted solely among women feminists, but also men. Your smirk at the age of "older" study participants fails to note that these were people in relationships of 4+ years. Did you miss this part, from the link you posted:

"It is generally perceived that feminism and romance are in direct conflict. Rudman and Phelan’s work challenges this perception. They carried out both a laboratory survey of 242 American undergraduates and an online survey including 289 older adults, more likely to have had longer relationships and greater life experience. They looked at men’s and women’s perception of their own feminism and its link to relationship health, measured by a combination of overall relationship quality, agreement about gender equality, relationship stability and sexual satisfaction.

"They found that having a feminist partner was linked to healthier heterosexual relationships for women. Men with feminist partners also reported both more stable relationships and greater sexual satisfaction. According to these results, feminism does not predict poor romantic relationships, in fact quite the opposite."

But why am I surprised - you use what you wish, ignore what doesn't serve your point - you are the perfect example that statistics can be skewed to fit anyone's viewpoint.
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kyyankgrrl
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MoRivera,Oct 18 2007
11:37 PM
thats bogus. Ever since women started screaming about this "equal rights" garbage, the morality of this nation has gone into dangerously low levels. You don't see this? You want to know what I firmly believe. That this "feminism" issue is more of a womans problem than a mans. Women who are so into their equal rights cause far more havoc and chaos than if they just kept their mouth shut. A man has a job to do in his life, and a woman has an equally difficult role to play in her life. Most men know their place. Women, on the other hand, have torn this great nation to shreds. I firmly believe that.

Your post made me laugh, Mo. Do you also advocate the occasional beating to keep a woman in her "place"?

One of my long-held theories is that there are scant few differences between the institution of marriage and the institution of slavery. Re-read your post - only insert "whites" where you refer to men, and "blacks" where you refer to women. Keep them in their place, indeed.
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In politics, if you want anything said, ask a man; if you want anything done, ask a woman. - Margaret Thatcher

I never married because there was no need. I have three pets at home which answer the same purpose as a husband. I have a dog that growls every morning, a parrot that swears all afternoon, and a cat that comes home late at night - Marie Corelli (19th century author)

Faith is taking the first step even when you don't see the whole staircase. - Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Caulfield
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kyyankgrrl,Oct 19 2007
02:50 AM
One of my long-held theories is that there are scant few differences between the institution of marriage and the institution of slavery. Re-read your post - only insert "whites" where you refer to men, and "blacks" where you refer to women. Keep them in their place, indeed.

Ditto on gay vs. straight.

Frankly, I think women are and should be seen as equals to men, but I refuse to refer to myself as a feminist due to the negative stigma attached to the word.

It's like a great thinker of our time, George Carlin, once said. "I think spokesman should be spokesperson. I think chairman ought to be chairperson. I think mankind ought to be humankind. But they take it too far, they take it too seriously. They think I should call that thing in the street a personhole cover... What do you call a ladies' man, a person's person? That would make a he-man an it-person! Little kids would be afraid of the boogeyperson! They look up in the sky and see the person in the moon! Guys would say 'Come back here and fight like a person,' and we would sing 'For It's a Jolly Good Person.' That's the kind of thing you'd hear about on Late Night With David Letterperson!"
"To be a man you must have honor; honor and a peeeeeeeeeeeeenis!"
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MoRivera
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kyyankgrrl,Oct 19 2007
02:50 AM
Your post made me laugh, Mo. Do you also advocate the occasional beating to keep a woman in her "place"?

One of my long-held theories is that there are scant few differences between the institution of marriage and the institution of slavery. Re-read your post - only insert "whites" where you refer to men, and "blacks" where you refer to women. Keep them in their place, indeed.

and my point stands. The only ones making such a huge deal out of this are women. There is this "feminism" problem because the women choose to make it a problem. Men have their role, women have theirs. Thats all there is too it. If you're going to complain about a womans job being in the kitchen, why can't I complain about the "given" that men are to be up at 5 am in the morning so they can work themselves to death to earn money for the family? We have roles in life. This competition of who's better than who is no good, and there is no doubt that the feminism revolution has made the United States a morally corrupt country. It is shameful.
Jesus built one Church. He also said to follow Him. If you are not in His Church, you aren't following very well.
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bostonfanatic87
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Caulfield,Oct 19 2007
09:57 AM
Ditto on gay vs. straight.

Frankly, I think women are and should be seen as equals to men, but I refuse to refer to myself as a feminist due to the negative stigma attached to the word.

I agree with that, thin line between feminism in the definition that men and women should be equal, I agree with that. But feminism in th way that women are superior to men, no, that's the same thing that's there now only reversed.
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MoRivera,Oct 19 2007
10:06 AM
kyyankgrrl,Oct 19 2007
02:50 AM
Your post made me laugh, Mo. Do you also advocate the occasional beating to keep a woman in her "place"?

One of my long-held theories is that there are scant few differences between the institution of marriage and the institution of slavery. Re-read your post - only insert "whites" where you refer to men, and "blacks" where you refer to women. Keep them in their place, indeed.

and my point stands. The only ones making such a huge deal out of this are women. There is this "feminism" problem because the women choose to make it a problem. Men have their role, women have theirs. Thats all there is too it. If you're going to complain about a womans job being in the kitchen, why can't I complain about the "given" that men are to be up at 5 am in the morning so they can work themselves to death to earn money for the family? We have roles in life. This competition of who's better than who is no good, and there is no doubt that the feminism revolution has made the United States a morally corrupt country. It is shameful.

You make it sound like they're fitting roles. How well would you accept the role of subordinate? Why does it have to be the men that make the money to support the family either? I'm gonna be a teacher, I know right now that I'm not gonna be the one bringing in the big money when I get married. Your morals are very, very flawed if you think equal is immoral
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kyyankgrrl
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MoRivera,Oct 19 2007
10:06 AM
kyyankgrrl,Oct 19 2007
02:50 AM
Your post made me laugh, Mo. Do you also advocate the occasional beating to keep a woman in her "place"?

One of my long-held theories is that there are scant few differences between the institution of marriage and the institution of slavery. Re-read your post - only insert "whites" where you refer to men, and "blacks" where you refer to women. Keep them in their place, indeed.

and my point stands. The only ones making such a huge deal out of this are women. There is this "feminism" problem because the women choose to make it a problem. Men have their role, women have theirs. Thats all there is too it. If you're going to complain about a womans job being in the kitchen, why can't I complain about the "given" that men are to be up at 5 am in the morning so they can work themselves to death to earn money for the family? We have roles in life. This competition of who's better than who is no good, and there is no doubt that the feminism revolution has made the United States a morally corrupt country. It is shameful.

You know Mo, slaves had their place, and masters had their place. And the prevailing wisdom - at least among the masters - was that everyone was happy. They even used the Bible to justify their belief that this was just how life was meant to be.

They were wrong.
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In politics, if you want anything said, ask a man; if you want anything done, ask a woman. - Margaret Thatcher

I never married because there was no need. I have three pets at home which answer the same purpose as a husband. I have a dog that growls every morning, a parrot that swears all afternoon, and a cat that comes home late at night - Marie Corelli (19th century author)

Faith is taking the first step even when you don't see the whole staircase. - Martin Luther King, Jr.
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kyyankgrrl
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bostonfanatic87,Oct 19 2007
10:07 AM
Caulfield,Oct 19 2007
09:57 AM
Ditto on gay vs. straight.

Frankly, I think women are and should be seen as equals to men, but I refuse to refer to myself as a feminist due to the negative stigma attached to the word.

I agree with that, thin line between feminism in the definition that men and women should be equal, I agree with that. But feminism in th way that women are superior to men, no, that's the same thing that's there now only reversed.

No, I don't buy into any 'group' superiority claims. There are idiot men; there are idiot women. Just as there are brilliant, amazing men (A-Rod) and brilliant, amazing women (moi)! :lol:

I don't know that feminists have ever really claimed superiority; just an equal opportunity and equal pay and benefits for our work. Some men find that terribly threatening.
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Sig by Detroittigerfan28

In politics, if you want anything said, ask a man; if you want anything done, ask a woman. - Margaret Thatcher

I never married because there was no need. I have three pets at home which answer the same purpose as a husband. I have a dog that growls every morning, a parrot that swears all afternoon, and a cat that comes home late at night - Marie Corelli (19th century author)

Faith is taking the first step even when you don't see the whole staircase. - Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Jayhawk Bill
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kyyankgrrl,Oct 19 2007
02:47 AM
Jayhawk Bill,Oct 18 2007
06:52 PM

If you choose to respond, I'd be eager for you to answer my question posed above: Do you assume females who are not self-described feminists to lack a functioning brain? 

In any case, thanks for considering my criticism of the research work.



But why am I surprised - you use what you wish, ignore what doesn't serve your point - you are the perfect example that statistics can be skewed to fit anyone's viewpoint.

Why am I not surprised that you didn't answer my question? :lol:

What is feminism? First, let's check Merriam Webster Online:

Quote:
 
1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests


A "feminist" is the noun form of these definitions, or "one who practices feminism."

I asked, "Do you assume females who are not self-described feminists to lack a functioning brain?" Although you've dodged the question, I'll offer my own opinion:

1. Regarding the first definition, I find it difficult to understand women who wouldn't support basic equality of women to men. They exist: I know very well one genius-level forty-something woman who believes, essentially, in the submissiveness and subordination of women. I find her perspective bizarre, but I know that a few--hopefully a very few--intelligent women have such perspectives.

2. Regarding the first definition, there's a whole slew of various forms of feminism undertaking organized activity. Borrowing from Wikipedia, here are a few of those forms:

Liberal feminism
Radical feminism
Individualist feminism
Black feminism
Socialist and Marxist feminisms
Post-structural feminism and postmodern feminism
Postcolonial feminism and third-world feminism
Ecofeminism
Post-feminism

I'd suggest that an intelligent woman might well choose not to associate herself with some or all of these forms of feminism, just as there are many intelligent women supporting some or all of these movements.

***

Quote:
 
Did you miss this part, from the link you posted:

"It is generally perceived that feminism and romance are in direct conflict. Rudman and Phelan’s work challenges this perception. They carried out both a laboratory survey of 242 American undergraduates and an online survey including 289 older adults, more likely to have had longer relationships and greater life experience. They looked at men’s and women’s perception of their own feminism and its link to relationship health, measured by a combination of overall relationship quality, agreement about gender equality, relationship stability and sexual satisfaction.

"They found that having a feminist partner was linked to healthier heterosexual relationships for women. Men with feminist partners also reported both more stable relationships and greater sexual satisfaction. According to these results, feminism does not predict poor romantic relationships, in fact quite the opposite."


Did I miss this? Not at all! What struck me was an absence of description of method. They write of self-assessment in the first paragraph, but then they write, "Men with feminist partners also reported both more stable relationships and greater sexual satisfaction." Who assessed the feminism of the partner? See, it's already proven, IIRC, that men willing to describe their partner as feminist have stable relations: many women like men who willingly accept a relationship with a "feminist" woman. What I'd like to know is the stability and pleasure of relationships where some external metric determined, from a random population sample, that women were feminist, and then determined the nature of their relationship: stable, unstable, happy, unhappy, straight, lesbian, extant, non-extant, etc. What we seem to have is self-description, and that can be, as I stated previously, deceiving.

Quote:
 
I titled this thread "Feminists are best" because it is beyond my understanding why a man would want a relationship with a woman with no opinions and no voice in that relationship. A man who wants that would do well to invest in an inflatable woman - one who satisfies his "urges" in silence.

When men feel threatened, they usually lash out at another's sexuality. So it is no surprise that many men consider feminists to be "unattractive lesbians". These are the same men, when confronted with the extraordinary good looks and talents of Alex Rodriguez, refer to him as "Gay Rod". I have been a woman for a long time and am well versed in the knee-jerk reactions of insecure men.


It sounds as if you concur in the premise of inherent differences between men and women. ;)

Once you make that decision, then the current legal structure of "equal outcome" as the metric of gender equality is shattered. In the extreme, that might be why you support a Yankees team with an all-male 25-man roster. At a different level, though, differences between men and women might make traditional gender roles more important than we realize: maybe, society evolved for a reason.

Absent some sort of evidence that such gender roles still play a positive role in modern US society, though, the concept of traditional roles deserves to be questioned--just as the Rutgers researchers were questioning.

Quote:
 
So spare me your research.


Nah. :P You're a self-described intelligent woman: you want to know the full story.

Check out this study from the University of Virginia:

http://www.virginia.edu/sociology/peopleof...%20marriage.pdf

Quote:
 
Abstract
The companionate theory of marriage suggests that egalitarianism in practice and belief
leads to higher marital quality for wives and higher levels of positive emotion work on the
part of husbands. Our analysis of women’s marital quality and men’s marital emotion
work provides little evidence in support of this theory. Rather, in examining women’s
marital quality and men’s emotional investments in marriage, we find that dyadic
commitment to institutional ideals about marriage and women’s contentment with the
division of household tasks are more critical. We also show that men’s marital emotion
work is a very important determinant of women’s marital quality.We conclude by noting
that “her” marriage is happiest when it combines elements of the new and old: that is,
gender equity and normative commitment to the institution of marriage.


With a data set roughly ten times larger than that used in the study you cited to begin this thread, and looking at relationships with an average length of 23 years, Wilcox and Nock find that traditional gender roles make for the happiest long-term relationships--but they also find that the man's commitment to ideals of gender equity is critical to the woman's happiness.
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bostonfanatic87
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kyyankgrrl,Oct 19 2007
10:33 AM
bostonfanatic87,Oct 19 2007
10:07 AM
Caulfield,Oct 19 2007
09:57 AM
Ditto on gay vs. straight.

Frankly, I think women are and should be seen as equals to men, but I refuse to refer to myself as a feminist due to the negative stigma attached to the word.

I agree with that, thin line between feminism in the definition that men and women should be equal, I agree with that. But feminism in th way that women are superior to men, no, that's the same thing that's there now only reversed.

No, I don't buy into any 'group' superiority claims. There are idiot men; there are idiot women. Just as there are brilliant, amazing men (A-Rod) and brilliant, amazing women (moi)! :lol:

I don't know that feminists have ever really claimed superiority; just an equal opportunity and equal pay and benefits for our work. Some men find that terribly threatening.

Haha I have no comment on the first part, don't wanna start a fight haha.

But anyway, there are a lot of feminists that have, and think that they are the stronger sex and that kind of stuff, they just don't realize they're the other side of the same coin.
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kyyankgrrl
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Jayhawk Bill,Oct 19 2007
10:51 AM
kyyankgrrl,Oct 19 2007
02:47 AM
Jayhawk Bill,Oct 18 2007
06:52 PM

If you choose to respond, I'd be eager for you to answer my question posed above: Do you assume females who are not self-described feminists to lack a functioning brain? 

In any case, thanks for considering my criticism of the research work.



But why am I surprised - you use what you wish, ignore what doesn't serve your point - you are the perfect example that statistics can be skewed to fit anyone's viewpoint.

Why am I not surprised that you didn't answer my question? :lol:

What is feminism? First, let's check Merriam Webster Online:

Quote:
 
1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests


A "feminist" is the noun form of these definitions, or "one who practices feminism."

I asked, "Do you assume females who are not self-described feminists to lack a functioning brain?" Although you've dodged the question, I'll offer my own opinion:

1. Regarding the first definition, I find it difficult to understand women who wouldn't support basic equality of women to men. They exist: I know very well one genius-level forty-something woman who believes, essentially, in the submissiveness and subordination of women. I find her perspective bizarre, but I know that a few--hopefully a very few--intelligent women have such perspectives.

2. Regarding the first definition, there's a whole slew of various forms of feminism undertaking organized activity. Borrowing from Wikipedia, here are a few of those forms:

Liberal feminism
Radical feminism
Individualist feminism
Black feminism
Socialist and Marxist feminisms
Post-structural feminism and postmodern feminism
Postcolonial feminism and third-world feminism
Ecofeminism
Post-feminism

I'd suggest that an intelligent woman might well choose not to associate herself with some or all of these forms of feminism, just as there are many intelligent women supporting some or all of these movements.

***

Quote:
 
Did you miss this part, from the link you posted:

"It is generally perceived that feminism and romance are in direct conflict. Rudman and Phelan’s work challenges this perception. They carried out both a laboratory survey of 242 American undergraduates and an online survey including 289 older adults, more likely to have had longer relationships and greater life experience. They looked at men’s and women’s perception of their own feminism and its link to relationship health, measured by a combination of overall relationship quality, agreement about gender equality, relationship stability and sexual satisfaction.

"They found that having a feminist partner was linked to healthier heterosexual relationships for women. Men with feminist partners also reported both more stable relationships and greater sexual satisfaction. According to these results, feminism does not predict poor romantic relationships, in fact quite the opposite."


Did I miss this? Not at all! What struck me was an absence of description of method. They write of self-assessment in the first paragraph, but then they write, "Men with feminist partners also reported both more stable relationships and greater sexual satisfaction." Who assessed the feminism of the partner? See, it's already proven, IIRC, that men willing to describe their partner as feminist have stable relations: many women like men who willingly accept a relationship with a "feminist" woman. What I'd like to know is the stability and pleasure of relationships where some external metric determined, from a random population sample, that women were feminist, and then determined the nature of their relationship: stable, unstable, happy, unhappy, straight, lesbian, extant, non-extant, etc. What we seem to have is self-description, and that can be, as I stated previously, deceiving.

Quote:
 
I titled this thread "Feminists are best" because it is beyond my understanding why a man would want a relationship with a woman with no opinions and no voice in that relationship. A man who wants that would do well to invest in an inflatable woman - one who satisfies his "urges" in silence.

When men feel threatened, they usually lash out at another's sexuality. So it is no surprise that many men consider feminists to be "unattractive lesbians". These are the same men, when confronted with the extraordinary good looks and talents of Alex Rodriguez, refer to him as "Gay Rod". I have been a woman for a long time and am well versed in the knee-jerk reactions of insecure men.


It sounds as if you concur in the premise of inherent differences between men and women. ;)

Once you make that decision, then the current legal structure of "equal outcome" as the metric of gender equality is shattered. In the extreme, that might be why you support a Yankees team with an all-male 25-man roster. At a different level, though, differences between men and women might make traditional gender roles more important than we realize: maybe, society evolved for a reason.

Absent some sort of evidence that such gender roles still play a positive role in modern US society, though, the concept of traditional roles deserves to be questioned--just as the Rutgers researchers were questioning.



Nah. :P You're a self-described intelligent woman: you want to know the full story.

Check out this study from the University of Virginia:

http://www.virginia.edu/sociology/peopleof...%20marriage.pdf

Quote:
 
Abstract
The companionate theory of marriage suggests that egalitarianism in practice and belief
leads to higher marital quality for wives and higher levels of positive emotion work on the
part of husbands. Our analysis of women’s marital quality and men’s marital emotion
work provides little evidence in support of this theory. Rather, in examining women’s
marital quality and men’s emotional investments in marriage, we find that dyadic
commitment to institutional ideals about marriage and women’s contentment with the
division of household tasks are more critical. We also show that men’s marital emotion
work is a very important determinant of women’s marital quality.We conclude by noting
that “her” marriage is happiest when it combines elements of the new and old: that is,
gender equity and normative commitment to the institution of marriage.


With a data set roughly ten times larger than that used in the study you cited to begin this thread, and looking at relationships with an average length of 23 years, Wilcox and Nock find that traditional gender roles make for the happiest long-term relationships--but they also find that the man's commitment to ideals of gender equity is critical to the woman's happiness.

First, I did answer your question. In a nutshell: Women of poor self-esteem and poor self-worth, who define themselves by what men think of them, are not feminists, and therefore I regard them as lacking functioning brains.

I have never denied that men and women are different. But it is appalling that being "different" has justified women not being allowed to vote, own property, and to still, in 2007, be paid roughly 75% of what men make for comparable work.

The remainder of your post simply justifies my loathing for the institution of marriage, and the inherent inequity and subordination "required" for that institution to "succeed".
Posted Image
Sig by Detroittigerfan28

In politics, if you want anything said, ask a man; if you want anything done, ask a woman. - Margaret Thatcher

I never married because there was no need. I have three pets at home which answer the same purpose as a husband. I have a dog that growls every morning, a parrot that swears all afternoon, and a cat that comes home late at night - Marie Corelli (19th century author)

Faith is taking the first step even when you don't see the whole staircase. - Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Jayhawk Bill
Really old guy
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kyyankgrrl,Oct 19 2007
10:21 AM
First, I did answer your question. In a nutshell: Women of poor self-esteem and poor self-worth, who define themselves by what men think of them, are not feminists, and therefore I regard them as lacking functioning brains.


OK...I agree with the concept of equal rights for all souls, but I'm more hesitant to insult those whose opinions differ from my own.

Quote:
 
The remainder of your post simply justifies my loathing for the institution of marriage, and the inherent inequity and subordination "required" for that institution to "succeed".


I guess that, as a self-described feminist who loathes marriage, your opinions may differ from those of individuals who have chosen marriage and made it work. *idunno*

Quote:
 
I have never denied that men and women are different. But it is appalling that being "different" has justified women not being allowed to vote, own property...


Concur.

Quote:
 
...and to still, in 2007, be paid roughly 75% of what men make for comparable work.


Disagree.

Arrah Neilsen
 
As much as feminists love to parrot the statistic that women earn only 76 cents on the male dollar, they rarely bother to provide an explanation or solid evidence for this claim. But fortunately a smart new book has hit the shelves just in time for Equal Pay Day to help them out.

Equal pay for equal work has been enforced by the Equal Employment Opportunity Act since it was made law in 1972. The Equal Pay Act of 1963 and Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 also ban sex-based wage discrimination. So it seems pretty remarkable that the wage gap is so wide and pervasive even today. Attorneys should be having a field day with class-action lawsuits. But they are not. Could it be that even the legal establishment is complicit in this glaringly obvious patriarchal conspiracy?

The 76-cent statistic (now actually 80 cents, according to the U.S. Census Bureau) is misleading because it is a raw comparison of all working men and women. Thus a female receptionist working 40-hour weeks is tossed in with the male orthopedic surgeon putting in 70-hour weeks.

A study of the gender wage gap conducted by economist June O' Neill, former director of the Congressional Budget Office, found that women earn 98 percent of what men do when controlled for experience, education, and number of years on the job.


http://www.iwf.org/campus/show/18948.html

Bold added.
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kyyankgrrl
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Article published April 23, 2007:

NEW YORK (Reuters) - A dramatic pay gap emerges between women and men in America the year after they graduate from college and widens over the ensuing decade, according to research released on Monday.

One year out of college, women working full time earn 80 percent of what men earn, according to the study by the American Association of University Women Educational Foundation, based in Washington D.C.

Ten years later, women earn 69 percent as much as men earn, it said.

Even as the study accounted for such factors as the number of hours worked, occupations or parenthood, the gap persisted, researchers said.

"If a woman and a man make the same choices, will they receive the same pay?" the study asked. "The answer is no.

"These unexplained gaps are evidence of discrimination, which remains a serious problem for women in the work force," it said.

Specifically, about one-quarter of the pay gap is attributable to gender -- 5 percent one year after graduation and 12 percent 10 years after graduation, it said.

One year out of college, men and women should arguably be the least likely to show a gender pay gap, the study said, since neither tend to be parents yet and they enter the work force without significant experience.

"It surprised me that it was already apparent one year out of college, and that it widens over the first 10 years," Catherine Hill, AAUW director of research, told Reuters.

Among factors found to make a difference in pay, the choice of fields of concentration in college were significant, the study found. Female students tended to study areas with lower pay, such as education, health and psychology, while male students dominated higher-paying fields such as engineering, mathematics and physical sciences, it said.

Even so, one year after graduation, a pay gap turned up between women and men who studied the same fields.

In education, women earn 95 percent as much as their male colleagues earn, while in math, women earn 76 percent as much as men earn, the study showed.

While in college, the study showed, women outperformed men academically, and their grade point averages were higher in every college major.

Parenthood affected men and women in vividly different ways. The study showed mothers more likely than fathers, or other women, to work part time or take leaves.

Among women who graduated from college in 1992-93, more than one-fifth of mothers were out of the work force a decade later, and another 17 percent were working part time, it said.

In the same class, less than 2 percent of fathers were out of the work force in 2003, and less than 2 percent were working part time, it said.

The study, entitled "Behind the Pay Gap," used data from the U.S. Department of Education. It analyzed some 9,000 college graduates from 1992-93 and more than 10,000 from 1999-2000.

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idU...SS&pageNumber=1
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MoRivera
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kyyankgrrl,Oct 19 2007
09:26 AM
MoRivera,Oct 19 2007
10:06 AM
kyyankgrrl,Oct 19 2007
02:50 AM
Your post made me laugh, Mo. Do you also advocate the occasional beating to keep a woman in her "place"?

One of my long-held theories is that there are scant few differences between the institution of marriage and the institution of slavery. Re-read your post - only insert "whites" where you refer to men, and "blacks" where you refer to women. Keep them in their place, indeed.

and my point stands. The only ones making such a huge deal out of this are women. There is this "feminism" problem because the women choose to make it a problem. Men have their role, women have theirs. Thats all there is too it. If you're going to complain about a womans job being in the kitchen, why can't I complain about the "given" that men are to be up at 5 am in the morning so they can work themselves to death to earn money for the family? We have roles in life. This competition of who's better than who is no good, and there is no doubt that the feminism revolution has made the United States a morally corrupt country. It is shameful.

You know Mo, slaves had their place, and masters had their place. And the prevailing wisdom - at least among the masters - was that everyone was happy. They even used the Bible to justify their belief that this was just how life was meant to be.

They were wrong.

and again, the only people who make feminism claims are the ones who are worried about slavery. Womens cry of "feminism" is like a mass murderer saying he doesn't like to kill. I'm not calling women slaves.

Colossians 3:18: Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

That is not saying "wives, you are your husbands slaves!" I was listening to a Protestant Radio Station here in CT (I'm not Protestant, but I often listen to it in the car) and they brought up how so many women misinterpret this verse. God has made man in his image. He has placed people in charge of his earth. Men have a job to do, and women have a job to do. Your "new age" Christian outlook is a very dangerous thing. Feminism has caused millions of babies to be murdered each year. "My body, my choice" is a popular voice among the group. Before you know it, women are going to be wondering if they're better than God himself.
Jesus built one Church. He also said to follow Him. If you are not in His Church, you aren't following very well.
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Jayhawk Bill
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kyyankgrrl,Oct 19 2007
11:59 AM
Article published April 23, 2007:

NEW YORK (Reuters) - A dramatic pay gap emerges between women and men in America the year after they graduate from college and widens over the ensuing decade, according to research released on Monday.

One year out of college, women working full time earn 80 percent of what men earn, according to the study by the American Association of University Women Educational Foundation, based in Washington D.C.

Ten years later, women earn 69 percent as much as men earn, it said.

Even as the study accounted for such factors as the number of hours worked, occupations or parenthood, the gap persisted, researchers said.


Dear Miss Foaming-at-the-Mouth-Marriage-Loathing Feminist,*

Thanks for the link to the Reuters article. The actual study can be found at:

http://www.aauw.org/research/upload/behindPayGap.pdf

The quote "Even as the study accounted for such factors as the number of hours worked, occupations or parenthood, the gap persisted, researchers said," is explicitly incorrect.

The pay gaps of "80% what men earn" and "69% what men earn" are based upon median weekly earnings across all jobs. Those figures in no way hold constant once one accounts for number of hours worked, occupations or parenthood. From the complete study, page 18:

Quote:
 
The regressions for earnings one year after college
indicate that when all variables are included, about onequarter
of the pay gap is attributable to gender. That is,
after controlling for all the factors known to affect earnings,
college-educated women earn about 5 percent less than
college-educated men earn.


But unattributed as being of any quantifiable impact (see page 42 for the full regression analysis results) is this highly-relevant table:

Quote:
 
Degree-granting institution selectivity

Very selective Women 28% Men 35%
Moderately selective Women 59% Men 54%
Minimally selective Women 8% Men 7%
Open admission Women 5% Men 4%


The difference between your study and the one I cited regarding initial pay gap is 3%, 95% versus 98%. The researchers neglected to include quality of undergraduate institute as an independent variable. We know that there's a 5-4 ratio of men to women earning degrees from very selective institutions in their sample set. We also know that Ivy League graduates make more than Beerchug State U graduates. The unexplained gap is only 3%...I think that we may have found the difference between the two studies.

If choices regarding profession and current hours of work are removed, after a decade the pay of women with respect to men is not 69%, but 88%:

Quote:
 
Ten years after graduation, the portion of the gender pay
gap that remains unexplained increases from 5 percent to
12 percent.


Why could that be? Well, one possible reason is that the women haven't worked as hard as the men to earn raises and promotions.

Check Figure 9 on page 23. While the information is presented graphically, roughly half of men but roughly two-thirds of women reported working 40 or fewer hours per week in their full-time job. Roughly twice as many men as women worked fifty or more hours each week. If you're the boss, and you're handing out raises and promotions, who are you going to reward, all else equal?

It seems self-evident, but, astonishingly, hours worked per week wasn't an independent variable in the analysis for those a decade into the work force. Whether or not the individuals worked part-time in the last five years--not the first five years--was counted, but there was no consideration of extra hours worked by full-time employees...and we know that factor to be significantly different for men and women.

Miss Foaming-at-the-Mouth-Marriage-Loathing Feminist,* you should really check the actual studies, not the news articles, before citing them. The article took words out of context, and the study itself was flawed.

It appears that I was right all along. :D




* Other moderators: Please note that kyyankgrrl has personally used "Foaming at the mouth" referring to me in the recently-locked Pedroia thread, specifically indicating afterwards that she doesn't consider the post to be a personal attack. Furthermore, she is on record earlier in this thread as being, by her own admission, a marriage-loathing feminist. Accordingly, I intend to use this nickname for her in the future.
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nath87
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Mo .... ever think of how it would be like if you were a girl? a sixteen year old girl who made a mistake and got herself pregnent and has no clue what she is going to do ? imagine if you were her what would YOU would do....
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Rockshu
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Damn... my lab partner in physics... she's not overwhelmingly hot (probably a 7/10), but she's definitely not "average". 5'9", 110 lbs, probably a B cup-size. My kind of woman. She's asian, and that's just a great kicker on top of it all. She's incredibly awesome to hang around with (Tuesday's are now quality days) and she's incredibly smart (smarter than me, I know, wow). I think we could probably have a pretty serious relationship. Problem is, we're now friends and I don't have the balls to try and convert a friendship into a relationship.
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Jayhawk Bill
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Rockshu,Oct 19 2007
04:22 PM
Damn... my lab partner in physics... she's not overwhelmingly hot (probably a 7/10), but she's definitely not "average". 5'9", 110 lbs, probably a B cup-size. My kind of woman. She's asian, and that's just a great kicker on top of it all. She's incredibly awesome to hang around with (Tuesday's are now quality days) and she's incredibly smart (smarter than me, I know, wow). I think we could probably have a pretty serious relationship. Problem is, we're now friends and I don't have the balls to try and convert a friendship into a relationship.

Grow balls. Smart is sexy.

I don't know you well, but from how you post you seem to be confident enough that you want to date--and, ultimately, possibly to marry--a woman roughly as smart as you are. If you like and respect your lab partner, you should ask her out--probably very near the end of the current semester. ;)

IMVHO...YMMV. :)
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Rockshu
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I dated bimbos in highschool. I just can't deal with the sheer stupidity anymore.

PS: I have no idea what IMVHO...YMMV means lol
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Jayhawk Bill
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Rockshu,Oct 19 2007
05:06 PM
PS: I have no idea what IMVHO...YMMV means lol

In My Very Humble Opinion...Your Mileage May Vary. ;)
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