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Do you really care?
Topic Started: Nov 30 2007, 12:09 AM (882 Views)
Crushed Optimism
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Jayhawk Bill,Dec 2 2007
03:41 PM
You also appear not to have the guts to answer my previous question, "Why do you have morals if you do not have faith?"

Guts? Hahahahaha yeah it takes real balls to reply to someone's question on an online forum. :lol:
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Rockshu
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It's easy to have morals without faith. It doesn't take some mythical old dude with a big white beard to tell you what's right and what is wrong. Some of us clever folk can figure that out on our own.
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Jayhawk Bill,Dec 2 2007
03:41 PM
You also appear not to have the guts to answer my previous question, "Why do you have morals if you do not have faith?"

Was this post of yours directed to Element? I think it was just for the record.

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Rockshu,Dec 2 2007
04:34 PM
It's easy to have morals without faith. It doesn't take some mythical old dude with a big white beard to tell you what's right and what is wrong. Some of us clever folk can figure that out on our own.

Rock.. You are referring to Santa Claus... Right !!!

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Rockshu
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Santa Claus... god... is there really a difference? They both expect you to be good. If you're bad, you get a lump of coal (coal = heat = fire = hell), and if you're good, you get presents (presents = happiness = heaven). As a great man once said -- same shit, different pile.
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Rockshu,Dec 2 2007
04:48 PM
Santa Claus... god... is there really a difference? They both expect you to be good. If you're bad, you get a lump of coal (coal = heat = fire = hell), and if you're good, you get presents (presents = happiness = heaven). As a great man once said -- same shit, different pile.

Oh yeah.. it would take a really great man to say something that profound....

Actually you havent thought this whole thing out very well have you?
Dont forget its not a mythical Santa Claus that gives you presents for being good. Its daddy and mommy... You did know that didnt you?

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Rockshu
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Jayhawk Bill
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Telegraph-operator,Dec 2 2007
04:39 PM
Was this post of yours directed to Element? I think it was just for the record.

Telegraph Operator, it was directed to Element, not to you.

If you track the most successful societies on Earth, most of them have had some sort of concept regarding an afterlife introduced to their culture through religion. Other societies' individuals tend to be more cutthroat and backstabbing through life, and that backstabbing creates an adverse business climate--and a bad business climate limits prosperity.

The Judeo-Christian ethic of Western Civilization was excellent for business. That was important to early implementation of such innovations as the sailing ships that permitted the colonization of the Americas and leadership in the Industrial Revolution, permitting the Pax Brittanica and absolute world domination through much of the 20th Century.

Religion --> ethics --> secular societal success.

Religion may also save souls...I dunno. There's not enough evidence to create a PECOTA projection for my soul, IMO. YMMV. ;)

But my interest is in why one who didn't believe in damnation would act ethically on earth. Element claims that he has ethics...but he won't say why. I find that interesting. ;)

Crushed Optimism
 
Guts? Hahahahaha yeah it takes real balls to reply to someone's question on an online forum.  :lol:


Exactly my point, CO. Element cared enough to post...but now he's gone. *shades*
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nath87
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LOL the santa clause of today was invented by Coca Cola...
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Rockshu
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Jayhawk Bill,Dec 2 2007
10:23 PM
But my interest is in why one who didn't believe in damnation would act ethically on earth. Element claims that he has ethics...but he won't say why. I find that interesting.

It's really not. We don't walk around killing people because we would go to jail. It's not because we're afraid of going to hell for it, it's because we're afraid of going to jail for it.
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Rockshu,Dec 2 2007
09:35 PM
It's really not. We don't walk around killing people because we would go to jail. It's not because we're afraid of going to hell for it, it's because we're afraid of going to jail for it.

That would define "law-abiding" or "felony-averse," but for most folks "ethical" is a bit of a higher standard.

Individuals who govern their actions merely to avoid imprisonment aren't ethical.
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Rockshu
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Did you miss my earlier post where I said some of us can tell right from wrong without needing to go to church and have someone else tell us?
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kyyankgrrl
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Rockshu,Dec 2 2007
07:49 PM
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You think the only pedophiles out there are Catholic priests? I'm pretty sure the odds of a child getting molested by a non-priest are pretty high.
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In politics, if you want anything said, ask a man; if you want anything done, ask a woman. - Margaret Thatcher

I never married because there was no need. I have three pets at home which answer the same purpose as a husband. I have a dog that growls every morning, a parrot that swears all afternoon, and a cat that comes home late at night - Marie Corelli (19th century author)

Faith is taking the first step even when you don't see the whole staircase. - Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Jayhawk Bill
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Rockshu,Dec 2 2007
11:53 PM
Did you miss my earlier post where I said some of us can tell right from wrong without needing to go to church and have someone else tell us?

Not at all--but you cited a very different standard in your more recent post.

But, if you choose to raise that point, the same question: why be "ethical," if it means doing good for others that will be rewarded neither in this life nor in an afterlife?
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Rockshu
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Because some of us can do good things for people without needing a reward as motivation...
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Rockshu,Dec 2 2007
11:53 PM
Did you miss my earlier post where I said some of us can tell right from wrong without needing to go to church and have someone else tell us?

Rock.. I certainly agree with you and wouldnt recommend you go to any church as such to learn any truth from the bible.
They have been teaching false things for centuries.

The bible says they are the blind leading the blind.

Jesus said of the clergy of his day and it certainly applies equally as well right now...

 "Let them be. Blind guides is what they are. If, then, a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit." Mathew 15:14..


At the same time here is good advice from the bible itself..
Proverbs 3:5 says..
"Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding."

The truth from the bible is available, but I can categorically state that you will not find it in the churches of Christendom nor in the mosques and other temples.

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kyyankgrrl,Dec 3 2007
04:56 AM
You think the only pedophiles out there are Catholic priests? I'm pretty sure the odds of a child getting molested by a non-priest are pretty high.

Does that mean that the Catholic church did the right thing though? Oh more other people do it, so it's cool, the Catholic church can be well aware of it and just hide them and move them around so oh wow, they can just molest someone elsewhere, no biggie.
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Jayhawk Bill
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Rockshu,Dec 3 2007
12:26 PM
Because some of us can do good things for people without needing a reward as motivation...

Why?

Do you get pleasure from altruistic behavior?

Do you think that people will notice and that you'll reap benefits?

Is it a knee-jerk reaction from your behavioral conditioning in your early childhood?
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Rockshu
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I'll use something that happened last Friday as an example.

I had just finished my last class, and was walking towards the bus. It was snowing heavily and there was a lot of ice on the ground. I was walking down the steps, and the girl who was infront of me slipped and fell on her ass. As opposed to walking by and laughing, I stopped, helped her up, and made sure she was ok.

Did I do it because I wanted to ensure I was going to heaven, or anything like that? Did I do it because I thought maybe she'd think I was a great guy and fuck me? No, I did it because I'm a pretty decent guy, and if I fell down I'd hope someone would do the same and help me up.
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Jayhawk Bill
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Rockshu,Dec 3 2007
09:28 PM
I'll use something that happened last Friday as an example.

I had just finished my last class, and was walking towards the bus. It was snowing heavily and there was a lot of ice on the ground. I was walking down the steps, and the girl who was infront of me slipped and fell on her ass. As opposed to walking by and laughing, I stopped, helped her up, and made sure she was ok.

Did I do it because I wanted to ensure I was going to heaven, or anything like that? Did I do it because I thought maybe she'd think I was a great guy and fuck me? No, I did it because I'm a pretty decent guy, and if I fell down I'd hope someone would do the same and help me up.

First, that was a good and decent move.

***

That said...

Were you in private, or were others whom you might meet and need to establish relationships with watching?

Did you expend any critical resource helping her up, beyond thirty seconds of time?

Unless you were alone, and unless the loss of time was critical, I don't see this as any sort of ethical dilemma. Your actions prove you not to be a sadist, but they fall well short of altruism.
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