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Question for bible thumpers and others
Topic Started: Dec 12 2007, 08:10 PM (434 Views)
T-O
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What is the meaning of Ecc 7:1 ??

"A name is better than good oil, and the day of death than the day of one’s being born."

Make any sense to you?
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nath87
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It just shows how badly translated the bible really is. because it makes no sense at all.
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T-O
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nath87,Dec 12 2007
09:11 PM
It just shows how badly translated the bible really is. because it makes no sense at all.

OK.. Thanks for your answer.

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Jayhawk Bill
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nath87,Dec 12 2007
09:11 PM
It just shows how badly translated the bible really is. because it makes no sense at all.

Let's put this into context:

KJV
 
7:1  A good name is better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one's birth.

7:2  It is better to go to the house of mourning, than to go to the house of feasting: for that is the end of all men; and the living will lay it to his heart.

7:3  Sorrow is better than laughter: for by the sadness of the countenance the heart is made better.

7:4  The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning; but the heart of fools is in the house of mirth.

7:5  It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise, than for a man to hear the song of fools.


The teacher, perhaps Solomon himself, is speaking of the importance of that which prevails, not transient pleasure. From a secular perspective, he speaks of the importance of reputation, of work that endures in this world. In 7:1-2 he is clearly referring as well to the joy of that which he believed we all shall encounter after death if we are righteous.

Not long after the time of Solomon, the people of Israel and Judah were conquered and taken away into slavery. In what I consider to be, perhaps, the single greatest miracle of the Old Testament, their culture and religion survived. Through long years of servitude they continued to believe that works were more important than joy, and that faith would prevail. Babylon crumbled; Israel survives.

We are, if we choose, the heirs of the wisdom of the teacher. It takes no faith to see that the path described causes societies to flourish in good times and to prevail in bad times. With faith, more is potentially possible.

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T-O
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nath87,Dec 12 2007
09:11 PM
It just shows how badly translated the bible really is. because it makes no sense at all.

Nath.. Not at all ...see Hawks and my post down a bit further.
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T-O
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Jayhawk Bill,Dec 12 2007
10:15 PM
Let's put this into context:

KJV
 
7:1  A good name is better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one's birth.

7:2  It is better to go to the house of mourning, than to go to the house of feasting: for that is the end of all men; and the living will lay it to his heart.

7:3  Sorrow is better than laughter: for by the sadness of the countenance the heart is made better.

7:4  The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning; but the heart of fools is in the house of mirth.

7:5  It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise, than for a man to hear the song of fools.


The teacher, perhaps Solomon himself, is speaking of the importance of that which prevails, not transient pleasure. From a secular perspective, he speaks of the importance of reputation, of work that endures in this world. In 7:1-2 he is clearly referring as well to the joy of that which he believed we all shall encounter after death if we are righteous.

Not long after the time of Solomon, the people of Israel and Judah were conquered and taken away into slavery. In what I consider to be, perhaps, the single greatest miracle of the Old Testament, their culture and religion survived. Through long years of servitude they continued to believe that works were more important than joy, and that faith would prevail. Babylon crumbled; Israel survives.

We are, if we choose, the heirs of the wisdom of the teacher. It takes no faith to see that the path described causes societies to flourish in good times and to prevail in bad times. With faith, more is potentially possible.



Hawk.. Pretty well thought out but I want to bring your attention to one or two things.

Its true that Solomon, who wrote the book of Ecclesiastes, had a great deal of wisdom and as he said “all is vanity”. He had a deep meaning for those few words.

But for now I would like to quote a part of your post that would not be very correct.


Your quote:
In 7:1-2 he is clearly referring as well to the joy of that which he believed we all shall encounter after death if we are righteous.


Reply..
Solomon did not believe in ANY sort of inheritance after death since he wrote the following words. He knew that after death there is nothing, therefore after we die we encounter nothing whether we are righteous or not.

Here is Ecc 9:
5,6..”For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun.”

And again in verse 10.. “All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She´ol, the place to which you are going.”

Sheol being the Hebrew word for the common grave of mankind.

What I was referring to in Ecc 7:1 about the day of your death better than the day of your birth was this:

It refers to the fact that Solomon knew that upon your birth, you are born a sinner having inherited this from Adam. Therefore as a sinner you are subject to a death at same stage in your life. Therefore it is what you DO during that lifespan to gain God’s approval is what really matters, so that at the time of your death if you have gained God’s approval, you will be in God’s memory waiting for the resurrection that He has promised.

In that respect the time of your death would prove to be better than your birth, because now you have gained a righteous standing before God which you did not yet have when you were born.

Thanks for your notes on this.
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Jayhawk Bill
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02:46 AM
But for now I would like to quote a part of your post that would not be very correct.


Your quote:
In 7:1-2 he is clearly referring as well to the joy of that which he believed we all shall encounter after death if we are righteous.


Reply..
Solomon did not believe in ANY sort of inheritance after death since he wrote the following words. He knew that after death there is nothing, therefore after we die we encounter nothing whether we are righteous or not.

Here is Ecc 9:
5,6..”For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun.”

And again in verse 10.. “All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She´ol, the place to which you are going.”

Sheol being the Hebrew word for the common grave of mankind.


Pardon, T-O, but did you ascertain from the author--Solomon or not--personally that he meant what you think and not what I think?

Let's check Psalms 16:8-11:

Quote:
 
I have set the LORD always before me: because [he is] at my right hand, I shall not be moved.


Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.


For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.


Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence [is] fulness of joy; at thy right hand [there are] pleasures for evermore.


This is pre-exilic Old Testament; the word for "hell" is "Sheol." "Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell" speaks of a belief that Yahweh ruled the afterlife and could remove souls from the dreary sleep of Sheol.

See, T-O, I think that your criticism of my words would not be very correct, especially given that you were asking the audience for their opinions...YMMV.

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T-O
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Jayhawk Bill,Dec 14 2007
10:03 PM
Telegraph-operator,Dec 14 2007
02:46 AM
But for now I would like to quote a part of your post that would not be very correct.


Your quote:
In 7:1-2 he is clearly referring as well to the joy of that which he believed we all shall encounter after death if we are righteous.


Reply..
Solomon did not believe in ANY sort of inheritance after death since  he  wrote the following words. He  knew that after death there is nothing, therefore after we die we encounter nothing whether we are righteous or not.

Here is Ecc 9:
5,6..”For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.  Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun.”

And again in verse 10..  “All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She´ol, the place to which you are going.”

Sheol being the Hebrew word for the common grave of mankind.


Pardon, T-O, but did you ascertain from the author--Solomon or not--personally that he meant what you think and not what I think?

Let's check Psalms 16:8-11:

Quote:
 
I have set the LORD always before me: because [he is] at my right hand, I shall not be moved.


Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.


For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.


Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence [is] fulness of joy; at thy right hand [there are] pleasures for evermore.


This is pre-exilic Old Testament; the word for "hell" is "Sheol." "Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell" speaks of a belief that Yahweh ruled the afterlife and could remove souls from the dreary sleep of Sheol.

See, T-O, I think that your criticism of my words would not be very correct, especially given that you were asking the audience for their opinions...YMMV.

Hawk.. Your quote…
Pardon, T-O, but did you ascertain from the author--Solomon or not--personally that he meant what you think and not what I think?

Solomon did write the book of Ecclesiastes, but whether I ascertained from him PERSONALLY as you put it is neither here nor there, but obviously I didn’t, and I rely on Gods word as to the truth of the matter. And whether he meant what I think or what YOU think is immaterial. It IS what the bible says. And that is what is important.

Jeremiah 10:23 reminds us that it is not in man to direct his steps. It would be wrong to take a scripture like that one in Ecc 9 and draw your own conclusion even though it really is very plain language and very straightforward. It has to conform to the rest of what the bible says about soul and death.

Proverbs 3: 5 points this out.. “Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding.”

And the bible often admonishes people, concerning God’s word, to gain wisdom BUT along with that wisdom, UNDERSTANDING is necessary. How do you get that understanding? It is by a thorough study of what all of the bible says on a subject, research and prayer.

Ecc 9: 5 and 10 makes it very clear..That when you are dead you are dead, conscious of NOTHING. So whether that makes it your opinion or my opinion is neither here nor there. However anyone who CLAIMS to believe the bible would do further study to see if it follows the bible context concerning death.

And the bible clearly shows that when you die you cease to exist. The bible also clearly shows that your “soul” is you, not an intangible entity that floats away when you die. In other words, the soul dies, it is not immortal.

Your quote of Davids word from the Psalm…
“For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.”

When David said those words, he was referring to the fact that he knew that Jehovah was capable of remembering him in the grave and would resurrect him at some point. Similar words concerning Jesus are in the Greek scriptures (NT).

The same point being made by various faithful men of old, who knew and trusted Jehovah in His capability of resurrecting people (souls) from hell, which of course is nothing more than the grave.

No wonder, then, that the patriarch Job, in his terrible sufferings, could say: “Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me in hell , and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a time when thou wilt remember me?” Job 14:13, Douay Version..

The patriarch Job knew that God remembers those in Sheol, in “hell”.. Job believed that God would remember him for good because of his faithful integrity toward the true God.

The prophet Jonah also appreciated that fact, for, when he was inside the big fish in the Mediterranean Sea he said: “I cried out of my affliction to the Lord, and he heard me: I cried out of the belly of hell and thou hast heard my voice.” Jonas 2:3, Douay version.

THOSE QUOTES ARE FROM THE CATHOLIC DOUAY VERSION OF THE BIBLE.

Your quote..
See, T-O, I think that your criticism of my words would not be very correct, especially given that you were asking the audience for their opinions...YMMV.

When a person puts forth their opinion they might very well expect someone to question it. However in this case, although you felt that Solomon looked forward to someone having joy in the afterlife, he clearly stated that there is no such thing as an after life when one dies, so he obviously didn’t believe in what you felt he may.

I really didn’t contradict your opinion, it was the bible that contradicted it.
Thanks for your post.



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Jayhawk Bill
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12:46 AM
Hawk.. Your quote…
Pardon, T-O, but did you ascertain from the author--Solomon or not--personally that he meant what you think and not what I think?

Solomon did write the book of Ecclesiastes, but whether I ascertained from him PERSONALLY as you put it is neither here nor there, but obviously I didn’t, and I rely on Gods word as to the truth of the matter. And whether he meant what I think or what YOU think is immaterial. It IS what the bible says. And that is what is important.

Jeremiah 10:23 reminds us that it is not in man to direct his steps. It would be wrong to take a scripture like that one in Ecc 9 and draw your own conclusion even though it really is very plain language and very straightforward. It has to conform to the rest of what the bible says about soul and death.

Proverbs 3: 5 points this out.. “Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding.”

And the bible often admonishes people, concerning God’s word, to gain wisdom BUT along with that wisdom, UNDERSTANDING is necessary. How do you get that understanding? It is by a thorough study of what all of the bible says on a subject, research and prayer.

Ecc 9: 5 and 10 makes it very clear..That when you are dead you are dead, conscious of NOTHING. So whether that makes it your opinion or my opinion is neither here nor there. However anyone who CLAIMS to believe the bible would do further study to see if it follows the bible context concerning death.

And the bible clearly shows that when you die you cease to exist. The bible also clearly shows that your “soul” is you, not an intangible entity that floats away when you die. In other words, the soul dies, it is not immortal.

Your quote of Davids word from the Psalm…
“For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.”

When David said those words, he was referring to the fact that he knew that Jehovah was capable of remembering him in the grave and would resurrect him at some point. Similar words concerning Jesus are in the Greek scriptures (NT).

The same point being made by various faithful men of old, who knew and trusted Jehovah in His capability of resurrecting people (souls) from hell, which of course is nothing more than the grave.

No wonder, then, that the patriarch Job, in his terrible sufferings, could say: “Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me in hell , and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a time when thou wilt remember me?” Job 14:13, Douay Version..

The patriarch Job knew that God remembers those in Sheol, in “hell”.. Job believed that God would remember him for good because of his faithful integrity toward the true God.

The prophet Jonah also appreciated that fact, for, when he was inside the big fish in the Mediterranean Sea he said: “I cried out of my affliction to the Lord, and he heard me: I cried out of the belly of hell and thou hast heard my voice.” Jonas 2:3, Douay version.

THOSE QUOTES ARE FROM THE CATHOLIC DOUAY VERSION OF THE BIBLE.

Your quote..
See, T-O, I think that your criticism of my words would not be very correct, especially given that you were asking the audience for their opinions...YMMV.

When a person puts forth their opinion they might very well expect someone to question it. However in this case, although you felt that Solomon looked forward to someone having joy in the afterlife, he clearly stated that there is no such thing as an after life when one dies, so he obviously didn’t believe in what you felt he may.

I really didn’t contradict your opinion, it was the bible that contradicted it.
Thanks for your post.

T-O, you're not making sense, you're self-contradicting within your own post, and you're erring if you think that I "believe in" the Bible. I study it on occasion; I don't believe in it, or in any of several interesting interpretations of it.

But seriously:

I rely on Gods word as to the truth of the matter. And whether he meant what I think or what YOU think is immaterial.

You're telling me to disregard Psalms 16:8-11 as indicative of pre-exilic thought regarding the afterlife because you rely upon God's word as the truth of the matter? T-O, by your own logic, we should all disregard the Holy Bible as a book of faith and follow our own interpretation of God's word. And how that fits with your statement that what you or I think is immaterial is cryptic: if we disregard the Holy Bible, and we disregard what we think and what others think, then we shall have no compass at all.

***

Let's go back a ways. You asked for personal interpretations of a passage. I offered mine. You posted:

I would like to quote a part of your post that would not be very correct.

I consider your entire religion not to be very correct. Until you challenged my thoughts regarding Scripture, I'd avoided that point. Now that you challenge my beliefs, I challenge yours.
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T-O
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Hawk.. I have to tell you that I am having a bit of trouble trying to figure out what you are saying.

But let me take a point at a time if I can..

Your quote:
“T-O, you're not making sense, you're self-contradicting within your own post, and you're erring if you think that I "believe in" the Bible. I study it on occasion; I don't believe in it, or in any of several interesting interpretations of it.”

Reply..
I didn’t intend to direct that comment to you directly. I was actually referring to ANYONE that claims to believe the bible. I didn’t make it plain enough. Sorry.

At the same time perhaps I assumed you believed in the bible since you have been quoting scripture.

Your quote:
“You're telling me to disregard Psalms 16:8-11 as indicative of pre-exilic thought regarding the afterlife because you rely upon God's word as the truth of the matter?
T-O, by your own logic, we should all disregard the Holy Bible as a book of faith and follow our own interpretation of God's word.
And how that fits with your statement that what you or I think is immaterial is cryptic: if we disregard the Holy Bible, and we disregard what we think and what others think, then we shall have no compass at all.”

Reply..
At no time did I ever ask you or anyone else to disregard the bible. Quite the contrary if you will read my post again carefully.

However, your quote of Psalm 16: 8-11… I have set the LORD always before me: because [he is] at my right hand, I shall not be moved.

Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.

For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence [is] fulness of joy; at thy right hand [there are] pleasures for evermore..

Which part of this pre-exillic statement by David did I contradict when I said that Solomon, in Ecc 9; 5 and 10 said that when you are dead you are dead? None of the verses 8-11 says anything about a post death experience other than to wait for Jehovah to resurrect him.

Your quote:
“I consider your entire religion not to be very correct. Until you challenged my thoughts regarding Scripture, I'd avoided that point. Now that you challenge my beliefs, I challenge yours.”

Reply..
Since you consider my religion “not to be very correct”, from where do you get your information to substantiate this? If, as you say you do not believe the bible, then is it just your own idea of things that causes you to say that?

Now if you are challenging my beliefs with the bible, then I welcome the opportunity to debate bible topics, but as I mentioned before, if you are simply drawing your own conclusions based on your own ideas, then I consider them to be only that, your own ideas.

As I said, it matters not what you or I think, it is what the bible says that matters.

I hope I didn’t misconstrue your post which is possible because I have a bit of difficulty in getting your point.



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Jayhawk Bill
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03:15 PM
Hawk..  I have to tell you that I am having a bit of trouble trying to figure out what you are saying.


T-O, you considered my opinion on religion not to be correct. When you state your faith, that's OK. When you call others' faiths wrong, the gloves are off.

Quote:
 
Your quote:
“You're telling me to disregard Psalms 16:8-11 as indicative of pre-exilic thought regarding the afterlife because you rely upon God's word as the truth of the matter?
T-O, by your own logic, we should all disregard the Holy Bible as a book of faith and follow our own interpretation of God's word.
And how that fits with your statement that what you or I think is immaterial is cryptic: if we disregard the Holy Bible, and we disregard what we think and what others think, then we shall have no compass at all.”

Reply..
At no time did I ever ask you or anyone else to disregard the bible. Quite the contrary if you will read my post again carefully.

However, your quote of Psalm 16: 8-11…  I have set the LORD always before me: because [he is] at my right hand, I shall not be moved.

Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.

For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence [is] fulness of joy; at thy right hand [there are] pleasures for evermore..

Which part of this pre-exillic  statement by David did I contradict when I said that Solomon, in Ecc 9; 5 and 10 said that when you are dead you are dead?


How about "Thou wilt not leave my soul in Hell?" That implies both a soul after death and a Hebrew god that would offer that soul salvation. Solomon succeeded David and shared his faith.

Cheez, T-O, read my words. :angry:

Quote:
 
Since you consider my religion “not to be very correct”, from where do you get your information to substantiate this?


Atheists, agnostics, Catholics, Methodists, Jews, Buddhists, Animists, Hindus, Muslims, Wiccans, Zoroastrians, Baptists, Quakers, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Unitarians, and, of course, those few remaining worshippers of the Norse deities, who seem to have a very great deal of fun in life. *beer*

Quote:
 
Now if you are challenging my beliefs with the bible, then I welcome the opportunity to debate bible topics, but as I mentioned before, if you are simply drawing your own conclusions based on your own ideas, then I consider them to be only that, your own ideas.


Hate to break it to you, T-O, but most of the world's population considers your religion to be "not very correct."

Not that I would raise that point until you called my interpretation of the Old Testament to be "not very correct." But since you did, I thought that I'd point out both the pre-exilic reference to afterlife and the minor point that your beliefs are shared by precious few in either this nation or this world.



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Hawk..Your quote:
“T-O, you considered my opinion on religion not to be correct. When you state your faith, that's OK. When you call others' faiths wrong, the gloves are off.”

Reply..
I am sure that I pointed out that neither your opinion nor my opinion is what matters. Its what the bible says that matters.

If the bible points out that when you die you are dead, and that your soul is “you”, and that the soul is NOT immortal, and death erases your life, then of course I have no choice but to tell you that your belief otherwise is wrong.

Your quote:
“How about "Thou wilt not leave my soul in Hell?" That implies both a soul after death and a Hebrew god that would offer that soul salvation. Solomon succeeded David and shared his faith.”

”Cheez, T-O, read my words.”

Reply… Put your thinking cap on there Hawk. IF the soul is immortal, meaning it cannot die, in which case it would have to be a spirit, what on earth is it doing in “hell” in the first place?
Are you telling me that this immortal spirit has gone to hell when your body dies?? How can a spirit be put in hell, which is the grave??

Let me explain what that verse means.. The soul is you, nothing more, nothing less. That is why it went to hell when someone dies. And that is why David said, by his faith in a resurrection, that God would not leave him (soul) in hell, the grave…

There is also this verse that you quoted to me..
“Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.”

Tell me.. If Davids soul was to go somewhere when he died, possibly heaven (although the bible says that David did not go to heaven), but IF his soul went to heaven as you most likely believe, then why would he worry about whether or not his flesh would rest IN HOPE? HOPE OF WHAT?? Why would it matter what happened to his flesh if he has already received his reward in heaven?

David had the sure expectation of a resurrection from the dead, that is why he said that his flesh would rest in hope.

If you wish I can supply the scriptural references for all of this.

Your quote:
“Hate to break it to you, T-O, but most of the world's population considers your religion to be "not very correct."

”Not that I would raise that point until you called my interpretation of the Old Testament to be "not very correct." But since you did, I thought that I'd point out both the pre-exilic reference to afterlife and the minor point that your beliefs are shared by precious few in either this nation or this world.”

Reply..
Well Hawk, this is certainly not news to me. I can tell you for a fact that this is true. By far most of the world does not agree with JW’s belief from the bible. We have a lot of hatred against us as well.

The world in general in Jesus time didn’t agree with him either. They had him killed for his faith. Remember? As a matter of fact he stated that his followers would be hated by the world for his name sake.

John 15: 17-19 and more states…
“These things I command you, that you love one another. If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, on this account the world hates you.”

Might I suggest if I may, that when you consider bible texts and draw a conclusion in future, that you consider the entire bible context on that matter. It certainly helps one to more fully understand what the bible is saying and gives assurance that your conclusion is the correct one.

Thanks for your post.





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MoRivera
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Telegraph-operator,Dec 17 2007
09:28 PM
John 15: 17-19 and more states…
“These things I command you, that you love one another. If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, on this account the world hates you.”

Thanks for your post.

very true. Good post.
Jesus built one Church. He also said to follow Him. If you are not in His Church, you aren't following very well.
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