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Jesus never interferred with politics, why do you?
Topic Started: Dec 17 2007, 12:55 PM (713 Views)
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nath87,Dec 20 2007
05:01 PM
Too be honest I do not see much of a case when it comes to homosexuality and the bible, it is rarely mentioned in there and does not have any backbone to it. Yet the christians seem to put being homo sexual as a huge 'sin', yet greed is not really seen as a sin at all, yet it is mentioned a lot more throughout the bible... makes no sense if you ask me.

Nath..

Actually greed is mentioned as a sin.
In fact it is mentioned in the same context as homosexuality being a sin.


1 Cor 6: 9,10 the apostle Paul's words..

 What! Do you not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men,  nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom."

This isnt the only place.

But at the same time, how many times does the bible have to mention something as a sin before one really has to take it seriously and think that it means just that?

I think once is enough, but in the cases you mention, it is referred to more than once.
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nath87
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Telegraph-operator,Dec 20 2007
06:15 PM
nor men who lie with men

that could be taken in a number of different contexts. If you mean it litterly, too me it's saying. Actually Lying to someone. not someone who is sleeping with another... just my opinion... I know there were a few other lines that condoned homosexuality but they are few and far between. I just want to know... did Jesus ever say it himself that homosexuality was a sin ?
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nath87,Dec 20 2007
05:36 PM
that could be taken in a number of different contexts. If you mean it litterly, too me it's saying. Actually Lying to someone. not someone who is sleeping with another... just my opinion... I know there were a few other lines that condoned homosexuality but they are few and far between. I just want to know... did Jesus ever say it himself that homosexuality was a sin ?

Nath...

Tell me first of all where the bible condones homosexuality as you stated..


Now here are a few more bible quotations about homosexuality although the one I previously quoted has no hidden meaning at all. It is very obvious what the apostle Paul was saying regarding men who lie with men.

The Bible states regarding practicers of homosexuality:

Here is the same from another version of the bible..
“Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals . . . will inherit the kingdom of God.”—1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Revised Standard Version, Catholic edition.


Again at Lev 18:22..
And you must not lie down with a male the same as you lie down with a woman. It is a detestable thing.

And at Romans 1:26,27
That is why God gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites, for both their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full recompense, which was due for their error.

And just as they did not approve of holding God in accurate knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mental state, to do the things not fitting, filled as they were with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, badness, being full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malicious disposition, being whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, insolent, haughty, self-assuming, inventors of injurious things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, false to agreements, having no natural affection, merciless. Although these know full well the righteous decree of God, that those practicing such things are deserving of death, they not only keep on doing them but also consent with those practicing them.

I am not sure that Jesus himself specifically mentioned homosexuality. At the same time, Moses did, as did Jesus very close associates, his apostles.
However Jesus did refer to Sodom and compared some other cities to the debauchery that flourished in these places and that would receive judgement.

As you may know, one of the primary, if not THE primary reason that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed was because of the rampant homosexuality going on there.
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bostonfanatic87
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MoRivera,Dec 20 2007
12:17 PM
Telegraph-operator,Dec 19 2007
03:20 PM
bostonfanatic87,Dec 18 2007
06:09 PM

Yawn.  Nobody wants to abort your children.  You try to make it out to be a forced procedure, as if a doctors gonna kidnap a woman on the street and abort her child, and no, Jesus did not preach against abortion, it didn't exist haha.

Boston..

Its true, abortion isn’t mentioned in the bible as we know it, neither are blood transfusions or homosexuality for example.

At the same time, the sanctity of blood, homosexual activities,
and the value of human life in the womb are very well documented in the bible.

For instance, the law of Moses that Jehovah gave him to present to the people states at Exodus 22: 22,23..

“And in case men should struggle with each other and they really hurt a pregnant woman and her children do come out but no fatal accident occurs, he is to have damages imposed upon him without fail according to what the owner of the woman may lay upon him; and he must give it through the justices. But if a fatal accident should occur, then you must give soul for soul.”

And notice again the view that Almighty God has for the unborn…

Jeremiah 1:5… “Before I was forming you in the belly I knew you, and before you proceeded to come forth from the womb I sanctified you.”

What sort of situation would anyone be in who had aborted Jeremiah, one who was “sanctified” by Almighty God while he was still in the womb? Not good for sure...

So while there may not be an EXACT explanation for certain things because words like abortion or homosexual were not used in those days, nevertheless all person are under the “principle” of those laws today.

I once shared this on here, but I'll post it again:

A man once prayed to God. He was a doctor, who has preformed abortions, and is actively seeking cures for medical diseases, yet struggling, (along with other Dr.s) to get answers.

The man said "God? If you are so powerful, where are the cures for cancer, diabetes, and other illnesses?"

The Lord replied "I have given you people with the knowledge of how to cure many illnesses. You aborted them"

See, but you fail to realize that the majority of inventions and discoveries are a product of the time, not the individual, had that person not come up with it, another would have.
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Telegraph-operator,Dec 20 2007
05:15 PM
.

I meant to mention also that MANY clergymen of different faiths, like Catholic, Anglican, Episcopal, Lutheran,Methodist etc you name it, actually approve of and in many cases encourage homosexuality, and many are homosexuals themselves.

Since the bible clearly condemns homosexual practises, WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME THAT YOU EVER HEARD OF A HOMOSEXUAL BEING REPROVED FOR THEIR BEHAVIOR BY ANY CHURCH??

Can anyone have the slightest doubt, that these so called Christian people are not part of what the bible describes as Babylon the Great, the world empire of false religion?

Rev 18:4,5... states this concerning these religions..

And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues.  For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind.

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MoRivera
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Telegraph-operator,Dec 20 2007
08:14 PM
I meant to mention also that MANY clergymen of different faiths, like Catholic, Anglican, Episcopal, Lutheran,Methodist etc you name it, actually approve of and in many cases encourage homosexuality, and many are homosexuals themselves.

Since the bible clearly condemns homosexual practises, WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME THAT YOU EVER HEARD OF A HOMOSEXUAL BEING REPROVED FOR THEIR BEHAVIOR BY ANY CHURCH??

Can anyone have the slightest doubt, that these so called Christian people are not part of what the bible describes as Babylon the Great, the world empire of false religion?

Rev 18:4,5... states this concerning these religions..

And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues. For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind.

perhaps there are Catholics who are homosexual (just as there are Jehovah Witnesses who are homosexual) the Catholic Church condemns homosexual activities, not homosexuality itself.
Jesus built one Church. He also said to follow Him. If you are not in His Church, you aren't following very well.
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MO your quote…


perhaps there are Catholics who are homosexual (just as there are Jehovah Witnesses who are homosexual) the Catholic Church condemns homosexual activities, not homosexuality itself.

My reply..

Very big difference here MO.

I am sure there are JW’s who slip into homosexual activities, just as some may slip into adultery or fornication or whatever.

No one is perfect. But that is not an excuse. It simply is NOT tolerated.

However, the big difference here is that if they are not genuinely repentant AND CHANGE then they are disfellowshipped from the Christian congregation. No if’s or but’s.

You simply cannot be a homosexual or adulterer and be a part of the congregation. That goes for any sinful practices.

When was the last time a catholic homosexual was put out of the church, or gangster, or adulterer or whatever. Actually they are welcomed with open arms.
And that goes for any other religion that I can think of.

The bible says that the Christian congregation must be clean, and JW’s strictly adhere to Pauls council on this.

At the same time, there are certain JW’s who do certain things. And although they try to keep it hidden, it comes out one way or another.
What does the bible say that those who are trying to hide wrongdoing will be discovered?

No, do not lump us in with all the other religions in the world who tolerate this type of activity. There are Many JW’s every year who are disfellowshipped for practicing sinful activities, and that is the way it has to be to keep the congregation clean in God’s sight.

Many of these ones sincerely change their ways and after they have proven this then they are welcomed back.
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MoRivera
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Telegraph-operator,Dec 24 2007
03:08 PM
MO your quote…


perhaps there are Catholics who are homosexual (just as there are Jehovah Witnesses who are homosexual) the Catholic Church condemns homosexual activities, not homosexuality itself.

My reply..

Very big difference here MO.

I am sure there are JW’s who slip into homosexual activities, just as some may slip into adultery or fornication or whatever.

No one is perfect. But that is not an excuse. It simply is NOT tolerated.

However, the big difference here is that if they are not genuinely repentant AND CHANGE then they are disfellowshipped from the Christian congregation. No if’s or but’s.

You simply cannot be a homosexual or adulterer and be a part of the congregation. That goes for any sinful practices.

When was the last time a catholic homosexual was put out of the church, or gangster, or adulterer or whatever. Actually they are welcomed with open arms.
And that goes for any other religion that I can think of.

The bible says that the Christian congregation must be clean, and JW’s strictly adhere to Pauls council on this.

At the same time, there are certain JW’s who do certain things. And although they try to keep it hidden, it comes out one way or another.
What does the bible say that those who are trying to hide wrongdoing will be discovered?

No, do not lump us in with all the other religions in the world who tolerate this type of activity. There are Many JW’s every year who are disfellowshipped for practicing sinful activities, and that is the way it has to be to keep the congregation clean in God’s sight.

Many of these ones sincerely change their ways and after they have proven this then they are welcomed back.

why is it not tolerated? Jesus "tolerated" a woman caught in adultery. Homosexual acts are a condemnable sin, and they should be kicked out of the Priesthood, but they are not less of a human than you or I.

If the Bible says that we must be clean, why did Jesus ask for those who are weary, sick, and wounded to come to him? Homosexuals need to find Jesus, not be kicked out and placed away like they are some kind of dog. There are many Catholics (as I've seen on EWTN-Global Catholic Network) who were homosexuals and deeply relied on Christ. He calls for all to come to him, not straight, white, wealthy males.

Straight, gay, lesbian, or bi, all are welcome to his Church for worship. They are not in a state of sin automatically based on their sexual orientation. You have homosexual sex, you have premarital sex, both activities we should look upon as being "unclean". They should be able to receive forgiveness just as you or I. This must be kept very clear. Being gay is not a sin. Gay sex or relations are. Note, the Bible itself does not condemn gays, yet the gay men and women who "exchange lust for one another".
Jesus built one Church. He also said to follow Him. If you are not in His Church, you aren't following very well.
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MoRivera,Dec 29 2007
02:26 PM
Telegraph-operator,Dec 24 2007
03:08 PM
MO  your quote…


perhaps there are Catholics who are homosexual (just as there are Jehovah Witnesses who are homosexual) the Catholic Church condemns homosexual activities, not homosexuality itself.

My reply..

Very big difference here MO.

I am sure there are JW’s who slip into homosexual activities, just as some may slip into adultery or fornication or whatever.

No one is perfect. But that is not an excuse. It simply is NOT tolerated.

However, the big difference here is that if they are not genuinely repentant AND CHANGE then they are disfellowshipped from the Christian congregation. No if’s or but’s.

You simply cannot be a homosexual or adulterer and be a part of the congregation. That goes for any sinful practices.

When was the last time a catholic homosexual was put out of the church, or gangster, or adulterer or whatever. Actually they are welcomed with open arms.
And that goes for any other religion that I can think of.

The bible says that the Christian congregation must be clean, and JW’s strictly adhere to Pauls council on this.

At the same time, there are certain JW’s who do certain things. And although they try to keep it hidden, it comes out one way or another.
What does the bible say that those who are trying to hide wrongdoing will be discovered?

No, do not lump us in with all the other religions in the world who tolerate this type of activity. There are Many JW’s every year who are disfellowshipped for practicing sinful activities,  and that is the way it has to be to keep the congregation clean in God’s sight.

Many of these ones sincerely change their ways and after they have proven this then they are welcomed back.

why is it not tolerated? Jesus "tolerated" a woman caught in adultery. Homosexual acts are a condemnable sin, and they should be kicked out of the Priesthood, but they are not less of a human than you or I.

If the Bible says that we must be clean, why did Jesus ask for those who are weary, sick, and wounded to come to him? Homosexuals need to find Jesus, not be kicked out and placed away like they are some kind of dog. There are many Catholics (as I've seen on EWTN-Global Catholic Network) who were homosexuals and deeply relied on Christ. He calls for all to come to him, not straight, white, wealthy males.

Straight, gay, lesbian, or bi, all are welcome to his Church for worship. They are not in a state of sin automatically based on their sexual orientation. You have homosexual sex, you have premarital sex, both activities we should look upon as being "unclean". They should be able to receive forgiveness just as you or I. This must be kept very clear. Being gay is not a sin. Gay sex or relations are. Note, the Bible itself does not condemn gays, yet the gay men and women who "exchange lust for one another".

Hey MO..

I have to digest this post of yours a bit further.

I can tell you that your missing the point again. And did you finish the post? The last line looks like it needs completion.

Anyway, I will get back to you on it and explain what the bible means when it refers to keeping the congregation of God clean.

It certainly is not referring to shunning sinful people. I think thats the point that you got out of my post.

Catch you later.
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MoRivera,Dec 29 2007
02:26 PM
Telegraph-operator,Dec 24 2007
03:08 PM
MO  your quote…


perhaps there are Catholics who are homosexual (just as there are Jehovah Witnesses who are homosexual) the Catholic Church condemns homosexual activities, not homosexuality itself.

My reply..

Very big difference here MO.

I am sure there are JW’s who slip into homosexual activities, just as some may slip into adultery or fornication or whatever.

No one is perfect. But that is not an excuse. It simply is NOT tolerated.

However, the big difference here is that if they are not genuinely repentant AND CHANGE then they are disfellowshipped from the Christian congregation. No if’s or but’s.

You simply cannot be a homosexual or adulterer and be a part of the congregation. That goes for any sinful practices.

When was the last time a catholic homosexual was put out of the church, or gangster, or adulterer or whatever. Actually they are welcomed with open arms.
And that goes for any other religion that I can think of.

The bible says that the Christian congregation must be clean, and JW’s strictly adhere to Pauls council on this.

At the same time, there are certain JW’s who do certain things. And although they try to keep it hidden, it comes out one way or another.
What does the bible say that those who are trying to hide wrongdoing will be discovered?

No, do not lump us in with all the other religions in the world who tolerate this type of activity. There are Many JW’s every year who are disfellowshipped for practicing sinful activities,  and that is the way it has to be to keep the congregation clean in God’s sight.

Many of these ones sincerely change their ways and after they have proven this then they are welcomed back.

why is it not tolerated? Jesus "tolerated" a woman caught in adultery. Homosexual acts are a condemnable sin, and they should be kicked out of the Priesthood, but they are not less of a human than you or I.

If the Bible says that we must be clean, why did Jesus ask for those who are weary, sick, and wounded to come to him? Homosexuals need to find Jesus, not be kicked out and placed away like they are some kind of dog. There are many Catholics (as I've seen on EWTN-Global Catholic Network) who were homosexuals and deeply relied on Christ. He calls for all to come to him, not straight, white, wealthy males.

Straight, gay, lesbian, or bi, all are welcome to his Church for worship. They are not in a state of sin automatically based on their sexual orientation. You have homosexual sex, you have premarital sex, both activities we should look upon as being "unclean". They should be able to receive forgiveness just as you or I. This must be kept very clear. Being gay is not a sin. Gay sex or relations are. Note, the Bible itself does not condemn gays, yet the gay men and women who "exchange lust for one another".


MO. You definitely got the wrong impression about what “keeping the Christian congregation clean,” means.

You indicate that I was referring to shunning all people who are living an immoral life. Not at all as far as people who are NOT ALREADY brothers and sisters in the congregations.

No, what I was referring to was people who are already a PART of the Christian congregation, and who then begin to practice immoral acts, to fall back into their old ways so to speak.

These are the ones that the congregation has to deal with. According to the bible they are given good spiritual council. If they repent of their wrongdoing and show it by their actions, they are allowed to remain, but if not, then they have to be dealt with in accordance with God’s word the bible.

No one who wishes to have contact with God’s people are turned away as your impression indicates to me. However, to become a part of the congregation, they must give up their former lifestyle, and then live their lives in a way that is in conformity with God’s will as stated in the bible.

The apostle Paul tells us at 1 Cor 6: 9-11… As an example of this… "What! Do you not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom. And yet that is what some of you were. But you have been washed clean, but you have been sanctified, but you have been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.”

So you see, Paul is stating that immoral persons must change their ways, their lifestyles and their worship to God must be clean and acceptable by means of Christs blood.

As for putting people OUT of the Christian congregation there is a lot of precedence for this in the bible, not only in the Christian era but way back in the days of Israel as a favored nation.

Most true Christians loyally support God and his righteous laws. Occasionally, though, a person deviates from the path of truth. For example, despite help from Christian elders, he may unrepentantly violate God’s laws. Or he may reject the faith by teaching false doctrine or by disassociating himself from the congregation. Then what should be done?

When a man in Corinth was unrepentantly immoral, Paul told the congregation: “Quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man.” (1 Corinthians 5:11-13)

And there is much more on this in the Christian era. Council that forbids associating with one who is unrepentant in sinful conduct.

What about in Hebrew times?

Jehovah God took expelling, or disfellowshipping, action in numerous instances. He sentenced Adam to death and drove him and his wife Eve out of the garden of Eden. (Ge 3:19, 23, 24)

Cain was banished and became a wanderer and a fugitive in the earth. (Ge 4:11, 14, 16)

The angels that sinned were thrown into Tartarus, a condition of dense darkness in which they are reserved for judgment. (2Pe 2:4)

Twenty-three thousand fornicators were cut off from Israel in one day. (1Co 10:8)

Achan was put to death at Jehovah’s command for stealing that which was devoted to Jehovah. (Jos 7:15, 20, 21, 25)

Korah the Levite along with Dathan and Abiram of the tribe of Reuben were cut off for rebellion, and Miriam was stricken with leprosy and eventually might have died in that condition if Moses had not pleaded for her. As it was, she was expelled from the camp of Israel under quarantine seven days.—Nu 16:27, 32, 33, 35; 12:10, 13-15.

For serious or deliberate violations of God’s law given through Moses a person could be cut off, that is, put to death. (Le 7:27; Nu 15:30, 31) Apostasy, idolatry, adultery, eating blood, and murder were among the offenses carrying this penalty.—De 13:12-18; Le 20:10; 17:14; Nu 35:31.

Therefore MO, for any religion to look the other way, or even condone acts that are wrong in God’s sight, they would be going against God’s laws.
Remember the saying “a little leaven ferments the whole lump?”
If wrongdoers were allowed to remain as members in good standing of a congregation it would firstly be a serious affront to Almighty God Jehovah and at the same time may very well turn others into the same type of wrongdoing which would simply compound the problem of being unclean in God’s sight.

As I mentioned before. Often immoral people are allowed to be members of congregations of the religions of the world, in good standing. This is not so in Jehovah’s organization
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