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BONUS FEATURES; Jury Commentary
Topic Started: Jul 29 2013, 01:49 PM (325 Views)
Maximus
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Romeo,Jul 31 2013
01:53:47 PM
Commenting on what Max was talking about in the Apollo Welcome Thread.

After the way the past few votes have gone down, do you really think Trip can just keep flipping people against each other?

Atreyu was more than on to Trip even before I left. Laurie obviously knows what he is doing. And at this point, shouldn't Dan and Wes? I feel like Wes is just coherent enough to make Trip his new Apollo. When a player boots - in 4 straight tribals - people he was close to at various stages of the game and in varying degrees - do you really still trust him? Or could he survive because a few players think he's made enough enemies on the jury where he's now a Russell of sorts? I hope not - Trip probably would have a very good shot to win if he made the end depending on events and FTC performances, etc.

I don't know. I would think this would be a good round to go after him. He's eliminated some people that were actually loyal to him. Which takes me to what you were saying Apollo and Trip and his fear of pairs.....what do you think his logic was in eliminating me? Do you think if I had appeared more "controllable" after the Lucy boot that he would have steered things in a different direction? Or was that always his intent?

Just a guess, but I think it was a combination of engendering trust among me, Laurie, Dan and Apollo; breaking you off from any connection to Wes, who he was already planning to use against Apollo (and then me); and because he knew the votes were already in hand to boot you.

If I'm right, your vote was primarily to worm his way deeper for his real moves. To him, you were incidental.
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Romeo
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I don't know. I outlined our relationship a little more in-depth in Apollo's Welcome Thread, but you seem to discredit or not factor in the amount of time we spent together on Jedi, repeatedly going to tribals.

I'm not sold that getting rid of me was his Plan A - I do think once I made it clear that I was probably going to go after Apollo, that he decided protecting me or trying to keep me in the game, wasn't worth his effort.
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Romeo
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And again, like I stated, he had a visible, direct path to the end with Lucy and I in the game. He chose a different path and that's fine. It might work out for him better.

But he lost me the second he tried to explain the Lucy boot as being scared of her connections - who exactly was she so close to? Apparently not the majority considering she was voted out. He then went on to talk about how scared he was of you (Max) and that he wanted to take you out - which came across as bullshit to me considering he could have just voted to take you out. So, while the move might have been genius - yet to be determined - the spin, at least to me, was half-hearted.

Even still - we survived Jedi together, even rolling the dice in a tie-vote - a Brobst first - so I do not think I was that expendable to him. I obviously was more so than I anticipated, but other than the fact that he just didn't see another option at that point, I don't quite understand his logic in it. There was nothing Wes was telling me that I wasn't immediately discussing with Trip.
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Maximus
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Oh, I get that he had every reason to trust you, and every reason to think you'd vote with him. But the problem is that he isn't playing a loyalty game. He's playing the exact opposite - destroying other people's loyalties, and only using those who show loyalty to him to achieve that.

You were useful to him, but that's as far as it went. Trip is a ruthless player and, as much as I railed against it while still "in character", I respect that game immensely. I'm nowhere near as good at it as someone like he is, so I don't even try to play that way.

But, since you were associated with Lucy and considered to be playing multiple sides just like she was accused of doing (don't forget your alliance with me, Wes and Laurie), there were enough people who were willing to vote you that it was a no-brainer for him. The fact that it reinforced my four's trust in him for awhile - setting him up for the move against me/Apollo at F8 - was icing on the cake.

If he makes it to the end, he probably has my vote. His game is a spectacle, but also very effective, so long as nobody gets wise to him. I'm only sorry I did a few hours too late.
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Romeo
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He was the one doing the accusing though. What is playing sides in Survivor? You said it at the tribal you left - you don't turn down offers if they are made to you. Trip set Lucy and I up, that's fine, but the real question becomes if that was necessary on his part or if it was needless.

I say again - it COULD work out great for him - and even if it doesn't, it could still be the game he wanted to play and you can't fault him that - but from my perspective he showed his hand sooner than he needed to.
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Apollo
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Romeo,Jul 31 2013
01:53:47 PM
Which takes me to what you were saying Apollo and Trip and his fear of pairs.....what do you think his logic was in eliminating me? Do you think if I had appeared more "controllable" after the Lucy boot that he would have steered things in a different direction? Or was that always his intent?

Romeo one thing I learned about Trip during my time with him was that he was very paranoid. If someone questioned him or made him think they were catching on to his game he immediately targeted them.

At F8 he tried to talk me into going after Max and when I tried to talk him down from that ledge he obviously saw that as me working against him. His reaction...go directly to Max and make me the target. Which he did. Thankfully Max figured out what he was up to and the plot fell apart. So naturally that was all Max's fault and Trip targeted him instead. Stupidly I followed through with that plan. That was my mistake. I already knew at that point what he was up to...but gave Trip the benefit of my doubt based on how close we had been the whole game. Dumb move.

It did stick in my head though and I questioned Trip about some of the things I was hearing and that's when I sealed my fate. He had to get rid of me at that point.

So yes...if Trip perceived your reaction to the Lucy vote as negative or that you might have been questioning him, that was more than enough reason for him to target you.

Romeo I think Trip did get close to you during your time on New Jedi with him because I could tell he began speaking more favorably about you. He never targeted you with me until right before we voted for you.



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Apollo
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Romeo,Jul 31 2013
02:47:29 PM
I don't know. I outlined our relationship a little more in-depth in Apollo's Welcome Thread, but you seem to discredit or not factor in the amount of time we spent together on Jedi, repeatedly going to tribals.

I'm not sold that getting rid of me was his Plan A - I do think once I made it clear that I was probably going to go after Apollo, that he decided protecting me or trying to keep me in the game, wasn't worth his effort.

Romeo I think Trip defiantly got closer to you during your time on New Jedi. I don't doubt that a bit. You have to consider that Trip was one of the ringleaders in the attempt to throw the last challenge on Bonsai just so we could get rid of you. Dan and I discussed it but it was Trip that gave the plan the go ahead.

Going into the swap it was agreed that who ever was placed on a tribe with you or Wes would use you and Wes as a shield against the others and offer you two up as a sacrifice rather than have the target placed on one of us. That was the plan anyways, lol.

But it became obvious through watching the Jedi boots that you and Trip were working at least somewhat together. That was reinforced to me at the merge when Trip gave you a raving review. I had nothing to base that on because I didn't personally dislike you I just felt like we never really connected. So I trusted Trip's assessment and you were not discussed as a target for some time.

If you were actively trying to target me with Trip I'm sure that was not helping because Trip and I had F3 plans from the beginning. I would imagine at that point Trip felt he had more options siding with me and Dan than he did with you. Because he also had his F3 with Max and Laurie going on at the same time. So he had a couple F3's and a couple of F2's if he stuck with the 5...so naturally he went that way.
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Apollo
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Romeo,Jul 31 2013
02:52:07 PM
And again, like I stated, he had a visible, direct path to the end with Lucy and I in the game. He chose a different path and that's fine. It might work out for him better.

But he lost me the second he tried to explain the Lucy boot as being scared of her connections - who exactly was she so close to? Apparently not the majority considering she was voted out. He then went on to talk about how scared he was of you (Max) and that he wanted to take you out - which came across as bullshit to me considering he could have just voted to take you out. So, while the move might have been genius - yet to be determined - the spin, at least to me, was half-hearted.

Even still - we survived Jedi together, even rolling the dice in a tie-vote - a Brobst first - so I do not think I was that expendable to him. I obviously was more so than I anticipated, but other than the fact that he just didn't see another option at that point, I don't quite understand his logic in it. There was nothing Wes was telling me that I wasn't immediately discussing with Trip.

Lucy was connected. She have very close connections with Buttercup and Rose (F3 close) plus Atreyu, Trip, Me (and Dan by association), You....hell Lucy even told me she had Wes on the chain behind the scenes. Lucy was connected...and Lucy had many irons in the fire.

After Trip and Lucy pulled the plug on Buttercup that pretty much left me, Dan, Max and Laurie out of the loop. Even then Lucy and Trip protected me as a "just in case"...they told me so and I know they meant it because that was the only way I survived the double boot that night.

Once things settled I was supposed to sit in the corner and wait until Lucy and Trip decided what to do with me. Instead I reconfirmed my connection with Max and Laurie.

Now that left a solid block with You/Trip/Lucy/Atreyu/Rose with Wes in tow. Leaving Me/Max/Laurie/Dan to ourselves. The fact of the matter is Trip didn't like his position in your group (not enough options for him) so that's why he jumped ship and joined in with us. He blew up your alliance because he felt we offered him more options at the time. I know that for a fact.

Your only good to Trip if you are useful to him. He has no loyalties make no mistake about that.

At this point...I think Trip has designs on going to the end with Wes. Hopefully everyone over there wakes up and catches on...but not sure they will until it too late. I tried to do as much damage as possible on my way out...I gave them the facts...but doubt they will use them in time.
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Romeo
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He had a F3 with Lucy and I as well, and I never went after you until the round I went home when it was clear I was in danger. I wasn't counting on working with Trip or his vote at that point.

As for you and him, he told me a play-by-play of your conversations once we merged (obviously could have been BS). Aside from pinning the blame on you for my name being a target, he vented and expressed frustration with you and even talked through advantages of voting you out with Buttercup. Even then though, I always knew I was on the outside of the original Bonsai power structure precisely because I wasn't around when it cemented.

I think you both have a pretty similar and accurate read on him as a player though. He's a control freak. He needs to feel like he is running the show - I played into that for as long as I could.

He did a masterful job of stacking the deck against us working together though. I will credit him that.
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Apollo
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Maximus,Jul 31 2013
04:29:25 PM
But the problem is that he isn't playing a loyalty game. He's playing the exact opposite - destroying other people's loyalties, and only using those who show loyalty to him to achieve that.


NAILED IT!!! Spot on my friend...I think you summed up Trip's game perfectly. There is no loyalty with Trip and he does try to destroy any loyalties you might have. That's his game in a nutshell. Divide and conquer...show no mercy. Very effective...if it doesn't catch up to him.

Man I hope it catches up to him, LOL. :P
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Romeo
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That's a good estimate on what happened, but you still downplay the relationship Trip and I had and how much information we shared. We controlled Lucy, and while people liked Lucy, she wasn't a terribly strategic player. She gave me, and us, a lot of information and fire power and she had just reaffirmed her loyalty to us at that double-boot.

Even still I talked with Trip about cutting her loose - AND I always told him if he wanted to roll with you and Dan, a formation I would almost be powerless in, I would go that route as well. I always presented options to him - pros and cons.

He had his own agenda. That's fine. I mainly think he wanted Lucy out because it pushed a few players closer to him that he otherwise was never going to be terribly buddy buddy with with her in the game. But that doesn't change, option wise, going with Max and Laurie wasn't terribly more beneficial.

I think the players left are smart enough to flip it on him but that doesn't mean they will.
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Apollo
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Trip played you and I against one another Romeo. The whole time he was sharing my conversations with you he was doing the same with me. He was constantly reinforcing the fact to me that you and Wes were targeting me hardcore but that he could keep you in line.

Trip and Lucy were not as close as it appeared because shortly after we merged Lucy suggested to me that we should target Trip. She laughed it off but said he had to keep him in mind. Trip is a smart guy...I know he picked up on that and I know that's why he flipped the script on her.

We all felt close to Trip...because that's what Trip does...that's how he manipulates. I'm not even sure he knows how he really feels about anyone because he changes on the fly. His confessionals will be very enlightening to us all I think.

Look at where we are...a clear indication of how good our "relationships" with Trip was.
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Apollo
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We were all smart enough to flip it on Trip but we never did because each of us "kinda" believed the bullshit he was selling. We believed in our relationship with him even if he didn't. That was our folly. I think we all felt it as we were having our torches snuffed.

I pray they will catch on to his game and we will be able to pick his brain soon...but not going to hold my breath.
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Romeo
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See, I never really trusted Trip though. His explanation for why he booted Max way back in the beginning of the game set off huge red alarms to me. However, I got stuck with him on Jedi and I figured - falsely - that I could endear myself to him, or make myself too valuable for him to lose. Most players, that probably works considering all the votes we went through together and how extensively we talked. I figured that logically why would he want to get rid of me and I was hoping to play off that.

Obviously, Trip is a different type of player. I would have gone after him at F9 of I thought it was feasible. I thought going after you was my only hope.
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Maximus
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I'd love to add to this, but every one of my thoughts are already well-enough expressed here already, by myself and by both of you.

Now, I'm just waiting on Friday night. Between now and then, I might revise my projected boot order, but for now I still stand by it. Laurie on Friday, Wes on Sunday, Rose on Tuesday. Dan, Atreyu and Trip at F3, where Dan will be voted out.

OR

The tribe gets wise and pulls together long enough to trim the mold from the cheese. In which case things get a lot more chaotic, but the boot order then looks like:

Trip on Friday, Dan on Sunday, Wes on Tuesday with Laurie, Atreyu and Rose going to F3, where Laurie is voted out and we have a no-game-stacked F2 in Rose and Atreyu. In that scenario, I expect the jury to vote Atreyu to win.

But there are a lot of scenarios that can come up at that point, so I'm not putting any money on it. :)
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