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~ WELCOME TO THE JURY HOUSE, DANIEL! ~
Topic Started: Aug 3 2013, 12:05 AM (148 Views)
Daniel
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In response to Romeo:

Believe me, if you would have asked me a couple days ago, I'd have agreed with you about Wes. He's a dumbass. And he played like one early on in the game. But I saw something new in Wes these last couple days. I actually think that he didn't understand how the game was played early on - that he may be new to playing orgs. I'm not sure.

But he has really come to understand what it takes to do well in this game. He sent me a message that laid out his early weaknesses and how he has learned from them. How he has improved. And that, to me, speak volumes. I admire someone who can learn from their mistakes, admit them, evolve, and be successful. To me, that deserves merit and recognition.

Wes was also willing to put his ass on the line to keep his word, which is something I find admirable. While he wasn't always forthcoming with information to me, he never directly lied to me on which way he was voting. While he tried to deceive, he never did so maliciously. And even at the end there, Wes told me that he wanted to see me win that last immunity - that he didn't like how the vote was going down. And I called him out on it - I told him that he's full of shit. That he really didn't want to see me get that immunity. But, sure enough, Wes was the only one (other than Laurie) not to team up on me that last challenge, when he easily could have. He tried to give me a fair shot to get that immunity, even though he knew it could be him that went home if I did. Again, I respect that. I respect that much more than Trip, who gave me false hope all day or didn't even bother to respond to messages until after the deadline had passed, where he sent me a message saying "I voted for you, who did you vote for?" Really? No shit, Trip.

I know we all have different voting standards on what we want to see in a winner. And that's one of the great parts of having a jury - everyone has a different perspective. To me, Trip, while effective in surviving the vote, has absolutely no honor or integrity. Every single person he has befriended and given his word to he has eventually screwed over at the first available opportunity. And a lot of time, I think he is betraying people for the sake of betraying people - because he thinks its fun. He had a few different routes to go to the end of the game, but he's purposely picking the dirtiest route.

I will admit that I am a little bitter towards him. And that may bias my opinion. But at the same time, I feel that it is important to look at the means and not just the ends. If the means are to betray everyone that put trust in you, then so be it, but that won't earn my vote.

Romeo, I'm sorry that you and I never quite worked things out. I, too, enjoyed our talks. I'm very glad that you are in the jury with me - it'll make things that much more fun.
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Romeo
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I respect that opinion. And I agree that Trip has played a needlessly dirty game. It's been his choice, and it's worked thus far, but it was needless.

At F10 he had F4 (at worst) alliances with me, you, Lucy, Apollo, Atreyu, Laurie and Max - and probably Wes! He was so well positioned, that it was borderline impossible to not screw people over going forward. I think he had a path forward where he could have hid it better, but alas, I'm not him and I do not know his thought process.

I agree though that he was terrible at hiding if he was with you or not. The tonal shift was so blatant after Lucy's boot that I was forced to abandon ship and swing for the fences, when he could have reassured me and kept the waters calm. Conversely, YOU gave ME false hope and stopped messaging me the minute you realized I was on to the plan. That's fine. I don't begrudge you at all, but I do want to point out that it cuts both ways.

As for Wes, yeah, it's great that he's learned. I do think he has it's merits. But my vote won't be based off of who grew the most over the course of the game - the fact is, 99 times out of 100 player's don't get that chance for same game reflection. This is a beautiful game though in that you can vote one way and I can vote another, and they are both perfectly valid. The criteria for a winner is and always has been subjective to the jury.

Selfishly, when did you abandon hope with me? I think one of Trip's main gifts is that he can poison the water against people rounds in advance - he talked about wanting to vote you out after Max - like legitimately laid out reasons why, even if it was just bullshit - and was always negging you and Apollo to make me doubt you both just a little. I know he did the same with you two in regards to me.
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Apollo
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First of all...thank you Dan for validating what I have been saying. Trip is evil guys..you have no idea how close he was to me and Dan.

Final 3 evil...he broke that.


Max I really did consider our F4 deal...it wasn't until You made the move against me at F7 that I ever doubted that.

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Romeo
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I do have an idea because he was that close, if not closer, with me. F2, and he loved to remind me. It's not really a matter if Trip was "evil" because he was disloyal - I don't care - it's a matter if it was smart gameplay or not. Time will only tell, but so far, it has been.

I was as mad as anyone at him when I came in here - after all you three had number ones not named Trip, and while I was always hesitant of him, he was my main ally - and someone I'd workerd with every vote to survive. The Lucy boot pissed me off, not because it happened, but because he didn't talk it through with me - something we had done in painstaking detail every round post-swap. But I was also mad that he blew up a smart and achievable strategy - but again, it's worked out for him, not for me. I can't begrudge him of that. It's an individual game.

After all, at F10 he had a F2 with me, a F3 with Lucy and me, a F3 with me and Atreyu, a F4 with me, Lucy and Atreyu, a F5 with us plus Rose, a F3 with Apollo and Dan, a F4 with Laurie and Max...

I am not going to blame him for being good enough to build or be a part of all those alliances and end game deals. I blame myself, and us, that we didn't wisen up to it or compare notes until it was too late.
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Apollo
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I have no doubt that Trip has played a good game for himself. I just don't care for the way he went about it. He purposely built relationships with every player with the intentions of destroying everyone of those relationships for him to get to the top. Great strategy for him and it has served him well so far.

I have to think that strategy comes with a price tag though. You cant play a game like Trip has without some consequences. I personally see no more merit in the way Trip played than the way that Wes has.
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Romeo
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Except Trip has never been voted out and Wes was voted out 6-1 at F14. That's a big difference. And Trip has more controlled events than Wes, who has been able to ride in the drift of the chaos.

Of course, we all can vote based on any criteria and its justified. That's Survivor. None of us can be wrong because it's our own individual choice. You can choose to not reward Trip and be 100% right, and I can vote for him and be completely right. His game does come at a cost - which is evident here in that it leaves ill feelings - but it's still a great game.
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Maximus
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Daniel,Aug 3 2013
10:14:04 PM
It is actually really interesting to hear this feedback. I didn't realize I did that. That's good to know. I will have to work on this in the future.

Didn't you also doubt me at the Final 8? When you made that deal with Trip to take out Apollo? I know you said that Trip came to you and told you that Apollo and I were thinking about taking you out at 7 (which I would have never done). Once I heard about all of that, and you admitted it, my game really feel apart. Trip was clued in our Final 4 deal that didn't involve him, and I was forced to have to hope Trip would work with me going forward or force a tie. I should have forced that tie at Final 8 - but you would have probably gone home anyway because of previous votes. Oh well.

Max, I will say, even though you kinda blew up our plans at Final 8, I did enjoy every moment we spent together in the game. It was a pleasure to get to know you, and I enjoyed our talks tremendously. You are one of the people that I'm most looking forward to meeting once this whole thing is said and done.

Actually, no, I didn't doubt you at F8. I've known you were solidly with Apollo since that first night after the merge. I trusted you 100% to stick to that, and I don't think anybody in our four believed differently. Sometimes trust is as much about knowing how people will act as it is about knowing that they're acting in your best interest.

I DID doubt Apollo, however. I was half-expecting a move at F7 by him, that he would drag you along for. I *hoped* you would talk him down from it, but since he was already talking to Trip about it - and yes, I know NOW it was Trip's idea and that he was turned down - I figured I had to make a move immediately to counteract that. There's more reason there that I'm actually not allowed to go into at this point, but it was all a big self-psych job I did on myself and that Trip exploited.

I know better now, though, and should never have doubted Apollo to the point of action. I should have discussed it with him, and with you.

And I've told Apollo this already, but I don't blame you one bit for voting against me in a potential tie situation. You had to find a way to work with whoever was left after the fact. I hoped you'd support me with the tie - and I'm pretty sure Rose would have voted to avoid a tie, and we'd have been home free - but I totally get why you cast your vote for me that night. Seriously, no hard feelings there.
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Maximus
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Romeo,Aug 4 2013
01:58:35 PM
Except Trip has never been voted out and Wes was voted out 6-1 at F14. That's a big difference. And Trip has more controlled events than Wes, who has been able to ride in the drift of the chaos.

Of course, we all can vote based on any criteria and its justified. That's Survivor. None of us can be wrong because it's our own individual choice. You can choose to not reward Trip and be 100% right, and I can vote for him and be completely right. His game does come at a cost - which is evident here in that it leaves ill feelings - but it's still a great game.

Regarding the Outcasts, I think you're the only one that feels all that strongly about that. And that's fine - if that's the deciding factor as to where your vote goes, you have that right. But it won't be a factor in my vote.

And I admit that, although I've stated that Trip is likely to get my vote if he makes it to F2, Dan and Apollo are making me seriously re-think that. I now have to consider whether I want to reward his behavior with my approval. For now, I have to say that I'm no longer decided on that matter.
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Romeo
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I have been clear that all of us are entitled to our own opinion. That's the beauty of the jury system in Survivor. As I've repeated - I, personally, do not tend to reward a returnee. My reasoning, which I've outlined, is simple - neither you or Wes knew about the twist and were most certainly not trying to get voted out of the game. Priority A in Survivor is not to get voted out. You are beside the point - and considering how events had unfolded, I could have probably at least argued myself into voting you Max, because I thought you went out in an almost unfair manner at the second vote - but as for Wes, I just cannot talk myself into rewarding someone who failed Priority A so badly, no matter how far he's come after the fact.

We all also have to admit that we have a skewed, subjective perspective. We do not know everything and we do not know for certain the extent of anything that took place, or has taken place, in the game. We can paint a decent picture, and hypothesize - but we do not know. The three of you were very close to some degree, so your perspectives and views are unsurprisingly fairly similar. That's fair, and if you don't vote for Trip - that IS Trip's fault, because he wouldn't have understood how to earn your vote.

A lot of time's I think jurors vote for who they feel the most comfortable losing to; who they can justify losing to. I can't justify giving Wes my vote because I voted him out a long time ago. That's just me. And maybe you can't justify giving Trip your vote because you think he was a dick. That's you.

Collectively we will find out what this jury values most after FTC, and not until then.
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Maximus
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Just so we're clear, when I said it was your right to vote the way you want, I wasn't being critical, only stating that our criteria differ. That's all. :)

I also suspect as our numbers get filled up, we'll be getting more perspectives and more information that can - and probably will - influence our early opinions of who's "deserving" of the win. And yeah, I'm looking forward to that. :)
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Romeo
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No worries at all. I'm loving this jury house. It's probably more fun then the actual game right now - granted, I know we would all obviously rather be in the game.

Question though.

You lied and led me on with regards to voting out Apollo at F9. Now, your going to tell me that didn't matter because I had voted for you the previous round and that negates whatever you do after the fact. Fair enough (although I could counter that when you went home the first time I was the only person on the tribe to NOT vote you).

So you lied and led me on and voted me out. Awesome. I have no qualms with that. Good move (debatable but besides the point).

But why do you care if Trip did the exact same to you? Sure, YOU might have felt that you had a really good bond, but that doesn't mean Trip ever felt that - that's your own interpretation and reflection of what you wanted to happen. If I were Trip, knowing that I orchestrated you original blindside, I never would have trusted you no matter what WORDS you said to me.

It's just words. That's all this game is. So just because I feel close to someone, doesn't mean they are obligated to feel close to me. Obviously we ALL felt closer to Trip than he felt to us - and that is our fault, not Trip's. You can disagree and agree with his logic or strategy or implementation, but you cannot say what Trip's intents were.

If Trip made it to the end and directly said his strategy was to never have a close ally and to use close connections to destroy various alliances, then I will tip my hat to the man because he would have played his strategy to perfection. Now, depending on who he was sitting next to, I might not reward him - but, my main point, is that I want to judge and vote for a person based on what they did according to their own strategy - not in accordance of what my strategy was or how I would like to see people play.
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Maximus
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There's a difference between a lie and a failed promise. My issue with Trip was that he made all of these deals with people that he never intended to keep, and that he was the one to break. My issue is that he formed relationships for the express purpose of betraying them. It's a strong game so long as you can keep it up - and he's kept it up very well, all things considered - but I don't want to reward that.

Yes, I lied to you. Hell, I liked to everyone in this game EXCEPT for Laurie, Apollo and Dan.

And yes, I agreed to a F2 with Wes and a F3 with Laurie and Trip. I did that knowing that Wes would betray me before I felt the need to betray him (which he did). I made the deal with Trip knowing that either Trip would betray me, or Apollo would drag Dan into betraying me before I needed to do either.

It's a fine line, and I know it's lawyering an ethical system - which is inherently unethical. But I drew my line and didn't cross it. Trip pretends there are no lines. If he makes it to F2, I suspect he'll discover just how wrong he is.
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