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~ WELCOME TO THE JURY HOUSE, TRIP! ~
Topic Started: Aug 6 2013, 10:16 PM (671 Views)
Apollo
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I think Laurie's game will surprise you in the end Trip. There is a lot going on there and I only know a bit of it. She laid low after the merge due to circumstance but she is a strong social player and has a mind for strategy as well.

At one point her and Atreyu had a major falling out. To the point that Atreyu was telling me either she goes or he goes and she managed to turn that around. She had started working Rose and Atreyu before I was voted out. So them sticking together tonight was no real surprise (sure immunity helped, LOL).

The only real question I have is who she would have ultimately picked over Dan and Max.
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Maximus
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Trip, thanks for your take on the F3. With Atreyu and Rose, I agree with you completely. They're both very canny players, and very good at keeping their cards close to their breast. Atreyu's game is really quite good, but much like yours, I don't have a huge amount of appreciation for the style. And I think Rose has spent pretty much all of her time after the merge just keeping her head down, which was absolutely the right move for her to make. I can't fault her for it, but I also don't believe she's earned a lot of credit with me for it.

Your take on Laurie - and the loyalty/trust game is completely back-asswards, though. Sure, you open yourself up to getting screwed using that style, but then you also have a much better chance of getting deep if those connections are real. In Laurie's case, those connections were real. Not just a matter of deals made and promises kept - actual bonds that ensure much greater loyalty than just plain old mutual advantage... because sooner or later, that mutual advantage will go away.

Also, if you weren't concerned about the effectiveness of a loyalty/trust gameplan, you would never have targeted every alliance and every pairing throughout your time in this game. You systematically broke up every loyalty wherever you found it, and you did it brilliantly. But clearly you feared it. Re-think your opinion of that strategy, and then consider the possibility that Laurie played some of that up "for the cameras". That is, Jury Management.

I don't doubt one bit that our connection in the game was real, but I also believe she's done a pretty brilliant job of making sure everyone she's worked with that got here have a real emotional connection to her. She's improved her chances of a majority vote at FTC immensely because of that.

Discounting it here isn't lying to us. It's lying to yourself.
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Apollo
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Trip,Aug 7 2013
01:35:23 AM
Well that's fine.  Obviously real life comes first, but you have to understand where I'm coming from.  During those two days, I committed to things.  I couldn't just do things your way because I thought you'd be loyal to me.  Like you had a thing with Buttercup, I had a thing with other people as well.  We were struggling for position.  Lot's of moves I made during that time, I probably would have done differently if I had gotten more info from you... so you can't really blame me for not putting my game on pause because you weren't around, and you can't really blame me for not wanting to undo everything I set up just because you came back. 

That said, if things worked out the way you wanted at that point, you and Dan would have been F2.  I would have been F3.  I took a  risk and tried to shake things up.  I got F4.  So one place difference, and I gave it my all, so I still stand by my moves.  And then when you had the thing with Max/Laurie/Dan*Trip and you wanted to make a decision at F5.  Hell, if you chose them over me, I actually just moved up one slot.  LOL.

But it's all good.  I think we are all going to learn a lot of things we didn't know when confessionals open up.

You are absolutely correct on that and I knew it at the time. Like I said that was my bad.

As for the F5 thing you were very important to me in that. I knew Dan was close to Laurie. I knew Laurie was close to Max. In that F4 I knew I stood a very good chance of being #4. I knew I would have had a better chance with you and Dan. As far as me deciding who F2 was...I don't really think there was any danger in that. Lets be honest I don't exactly shine in challenges. I always figured you or Dan would win the last challenge and be left with that decision...and I was fine with that.

I agree the confessional will be very revealing.
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Maximus
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Apollo,Aug 7 2013
01:44:23 AM
I think Laurie's game will surprise you in the end Trip. There is a lot going on there and I only know a bit of it. She laid low after the merge due to circumstance but she is a strong social player and has a mind for strategy as well.

At one point her and Atreyu had a major falling out. To the point that Atreyu was telling me either she goes or he goes and she managed to turn that around. She had started working Rose and Atreyu before I was voted out. So them sticking together tonight was no real surprise (sure immunity helped, LOL).

The only real question I have is who she would have ultimately picked over Dan and Max.

That's a really good question. I've wondered about what happens at F4 many times, actually. I think - and really want to believe ;) - that she'd have picked me, partly because of how close we were, but also because she knew there was nobody that was coming to F2 with me but her, if I had any say in it. Barring Immunity, F3 would have been a lock going into FTC if we both were there.

Now, at F3, that would have been a slightly different issue. I still think she would have chosen me if it were up to her - we'd had a F2 since Day One - but I just don't know 100%.
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Trip
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Apollo,Aug 7 2013
01:44:23 AM
I think Laurie's game will surprise you in the end Trip. There is a lot going on there and I only know a bit of it. She laid low after the merge due to circumstance but she is a strong social player and has a mind for strategy as well.

At one point her and Atreyu had a major falling out. To the point that Atreyu was telling me either she goes or he goes and she managed to turn that around. She had started working Rose and Atreyu before I was voted out. So them sticking together tonight was no real surprise (sure immunity helped, LOL).

The only real question I have is who she would have ultimately picked over Dan and Max.

She was terrible at communicating with me. Every time I tried to have a serious conversation with her, I got some sort of form letter about being on the bottom and "please" and "thank you" and "I'm so happy to be in this game" and blah blah blah. I needed an in at the merge. She could have gotten me on her side a lot quicker if she had simply talked to me like a normal person.
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Apollo
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LMAO...I remember those form letters from Laurie well. I got them all the time on New Krypton. I like to call them the "I love Dan letters" because that's basically what they were. It wasn't until I called her out on it and told her the best way to get to me was not through Dan that she started to get real with me.

Trust me when she got real with you...you appreciated her game.
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Apollo
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Maximus,Aug 7 2013
01:52:11 AM
That's a really good question. I've wondered about what happens at F4 many times, actually. I think - and really want to believe ;) - that she'd have picked me, partly because of how close we were, but also because she knew there was nobody that was coming to F2 with me but her, if I had any say in it. Barring Immunity, F3 would have been a lock going into FTC if we both were there.

Now, at F3, that would have been a slightly different issue. I still think she would have chosen me if it were up to her - we'd had a F2 since Day One - but I just don't know 100%.

I think it would have been a hard decision to make Max either way. I tend to agree with you though...I think she would have ultimately sided with you. I think we know she valued loyalty a great deal and I think you may have made that connection a little quicker than Dan. Course I don't know this.

That was one of the reasons I was nervous about our F4...because I knew I was left out of that love triangle. :P
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Trip
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Maximus,Aug 7 2013
01:48:38 AM
Trip, thanks for your take on the F3. With Atreyu and Rose, I agree with you completely. They're both very canny players, and very good at keeping their cards close to their breast. Atreyu's game is really quite good, but much like yours, I don't have a huge amount of appreciation for the style. And I think Rose has spent pretty much all of her time after the merge just keeping her head down, which was absolutely the right move for her to make. I can't fault her for it, but I also don't believe she's earned a lot of credit with me for it.

Your take on Laurie - and the loyalty/trust game is completely back-asswards, though. Sure, you open yourself up to getting screwed using that style, but then you also have a much better chance of getting deep if those connections are real. In Laurie's case, those connections were real. Not just a matter of deals made and promises kept - actual bonds that ensure much greater loyalty than just plain old mutual advantage... because sooner or later, that mutual advantage will go away.

Also, if you weren't concerned about the effectiveness of a loyalty/trust gameplan, you would never have targeted every alliance and every pairing throughout your time in this game. You systematically broke up every loyalty wherever you found it, and you did it brilliantly. But clearly you feared it. Re-think your opinion of that strategy, and then consider the possibility that Laurie played some of that up "for the cameras". That is, Jury Management.

I don't doubt one bit that our connection in the game was real, but I also believe she's done a pretty brilliant job of making sure everyone she's worked with that got here have a real emotional connection to her. She's improved her chances of a majority vote at FTC immensely because of that.

Discounting it here isn't lying to us. It's lying to yourself.

I didn't systematically break every alliance I ever had. I never had any real alliance. Let's face it.

Every person I had an alliance with had another alliance other people already. EVERYONE. You did. Apollo did. Dan did. Lucy had several. Romeo had tricks up his sleeve. Loyalty to who? When I know someone I have a final three agreement with has a final four agreement with other people, where is the loyalty there? When I know someone I have a final three agreement also is in part of an "undesirables" alliance, where is the loyalty there? When I know someone I have a final two agreement with also has a final two agreement with 6 other people, where is the loyalty there? People kept reverting back to alliances made on day one or two. I had nothing on day one or two. I had to stay afloat. When we merged and I told you what happened the night you got voted out on Bonsai, I thought I created a really good bond with you... only to find out you immediately re-kindled your relationship with Dan/Apollo/Laurie. You had already admitted I was only your fourth on Bonzai, and here I am only your fifth again. Why would I stay loyal to that? I am not going to stay loyal to anybody unless it is reciprocated 100%. I finally thought I found that with Atreyu, but he got me. LOL. And yes, I would have gone all the way to the end with him. I got a bad rap. I was not in a position where I had all these friends just waiting to take me to the end of this game. I had to fight for it.

As for Laurie. I get what you are saying. But it's not her loyalty that got her here. The people she was loyal to are out of the game. She got here because she was a useful vote to two other players so that they could get rid or me and Wes.

We don't see the game the same way, and for that reason, I doubt I'll agree with you about Laurie.
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Westley
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yeah trip I can agree with that too. she's write me novels and my response always had to start with "aww Laurie you're so sweet" and then I felt guilty that I couldn't get as much substance into a message as she could lol.

very well put Apollo. she never got real with me. that's why I feel like I can't give her my vote
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Trip
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Apollo,Aug 7 2013
02:02:06 AM
I think it would have been a hard decision to make Max either way.  I tend to agree with you though...I think she would have ultimately sided with you.  I think we know she valued loyalty a great deal and I think you may have made that connection a little quicker than Dan.  Course I don't know this. 

That was one of the reasons I was nervous about our F4...because I knew I was left out of that love triangle.  :P

And that proves my point. Who was being "loyal" to me? Who was taking me to the end? I only flip flopped because I had to split people up out of their final fours and threes that didn't include me.
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Trip
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Westley,Aug 7 2013
02:02:13 AM
yeah trip I can agree with that too. she's write me novels and my response always had to start with "aww Laurie you're so sweet" and then I felt guilty that I couldn't get as much substance into a message as she could lol.

very well put Apollo. she never got real with me. that's why I feel like I can't give her my vote

A good player communicates with EVERYONE. She put herself in a box.
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Apollo
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Westley,Aug 7 2013
02:02:13 AM
yeah trip I can agree with that too. she's write me novels and my response always had to start with "aww Laurie you're so sweet" and then I felt guilty that I couldn't get as much substance into a message as she could lol.

very well put Apollo. she never got real with me. that's why I feel like I can't give her my vote

Totally understandable Wes. Believe me if all I had ever got from Laurie was her love letters to Dan I would have never considered voting for her. Luckily I got to see her other side.
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Trip
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I saw every side of Atreyu and Rose. One of them will get my vote.

Atreyu/Rose... whichever one gets here, will most likely vote for the other. So between me and him/her... that's at least two votes Laurie is not getting.
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Apollo
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Trip,Aug 7 2013
02:03:41 AM
And that proves my point.  Who was being "loyal" to me?  Who was taking me to the end?  I only flip flopped because I had to split people up out of their final fours and threes that didn't include me.

Trip you were always in my three bud. Wasn't until you stories didn't quite add up did I really start to consider other options.
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Trip
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Look, I could have always been in your three... but the point is you purposely got other options besides me. So how do I KNOW I'm in your three when I know you have other deals? This whole loyalty game I'm hearing about sounds a lot like sitting back and hoping the same person you are telling the truth to is telling you the truth, while both of you have other options. Basically, the people lucky enough to have hoped correctly get to the end.
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