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~ WELCOME TO THE JURY HOUSE, TRIP! ~
Topic Started: Aug 6 2013, 10:16 PM (667 Views)
Maximus
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But, DAMNIT, Trip, I really LIKED my theory about an overall strategy of crushing everything in your path. Why do you want to go and break character on me? ;)
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Maximus
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OK, I'm drooping, now. I'm off for the night, but I look forward to more tomorrow. Thanks for engaging - both this game and this Jury - so thoroughly!
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Trip
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Hahaha... wait until you read my confessional. There are several threads. One is just an overall strategy thread that has nothing to do with this game, but Survivor strategy overall. That one I'm not in character... and some of the other specialty threads I'm not in character. But in my "play-by-play" thread, which is basically my thought process as this game unfolds, I'm in character the whole time... insults, sarcasm, etc. So you can feel free to hate on me in there . :lol:
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BROBST
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(((I'm posting this as a "BOOKMARK" so I know I've read up to this point)))
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Romeo
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Trip. My man.

Sorry I wasn't really around last night to give you a proper welcome, and again that I won't be able to really converse with you - which I very much look forward to - until I get to a computer later on today.

First, congrats on a great game. Read through the threads and you'll see, despite my own issues with your game, I was a big supporter of yours here in the jury house. We've had a lot of great debates, with you at the center, and I hope you'll take the time to read them.

Secondly, as great as your game has been, I've always said Atreyu's was better. I put a lot of work the guy and knew how good he was and I admire his game to a ridiculous degree. It's hard to pull that style off. I think the round I went - when he was, in my opinion, working with me tirelessly to pull in Laurie - I saw their messages - and he'd admitted how close he was with Rose was when his real game started to begin. The rest was using you and weaving you into his web - leaving you boxed in a corner like you were last night. I'm happy to see someone else come in who really shares my appreciation for him.

Alright.

Me. Trip, I see you talk a lot about being an outsider and no one being loyal to you. Hm. Last I checked, I went into the swap knowing that you were in a bigger alliance at Bonsai, knowing you went to great lengths to eliminate Max - and yet, I stuck with you, each and every vote. I rolled with you to force the only tie in Brobst history. I ran through options with you, and admittedly, you were the only player in the entire game - despite my knowledge of how crafty and paranoid a player you could be - that I really shared everything with.

After the double boot, I felt like I'd done all I could to prove to you that I was an asset - and I was. I had closer ties with you than anyone in the game and it wasn't really close. Who gives two shits if I nodded my head when other people offered me alliances? Numbers that big, you're supposed to do that. I know you differ in opinion - and like to be in control - but actions > words. You lost me with your rationale for the Lucy boot - which was transparent - and you phoned in your effort with me to the days leading up to my ouster.

Do I blame you for voting me out? No. It was probably a smart move for you at the time but only because you seemed to completely toss me and our relationship away with Lucy. You were always tighter with Lucy than me - I wanted to keep Juliet - and it boggled my mind after revealing round by round discussions that you couldn't just talk with me through it. I might have given you a different opinion - an opinion, novel idea - but I would have worked through it with you if you thought it was our best option. Again, my entire New Jedi game - which was an end game of its own - was trying to prove my loyalty and usefulness to you since I knew I was an after thought at Bonsai.

Again, I respect your game Trip. Highly respect it. But last night was the only outcome for you. Symbiotic relationships and mutual benefits, they work really well in selling yourself for a vote or two - but loyalty and trust is what gets you to that FTC. And you proved you didn't have that - which, again, is fine, it was your strategy after all. Few people ever play 100% logically and 100% analytically. I admire your game. I would have voted for you in the end against anyone but Atreyu, but I think you overplayed and saw threats in shadows. And honestly, nothing is wrong with that.

Selfishly, did you decide to abandon me before you targeted Lucy? And why was I so expendable to you? Take me through your thought process there, because, while I was aware of your strategy, I thought I had made myself an invaluable asset. Oops.

Good to have you buddy. More later I am sure.
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Romeo
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My man. Sorry for the back-to-back posts, but I finally am at a computer and can put down my thoughts a little more coherently. I may repeat myself, but - meh - whatever.

I really did enjoy watching your game, and had a keen appreciation for it. There's a ton of debates to cover in the Jury House, but if you go back and read them, you'll see that I did argue in favor of your game. That doesn't mean I agree with it at times, or don't think you made mistakes - but rather, I understood inherently what your strategy was and that, for me, I could only judge you based off of how you accomplished your own game plan. And you were doing that, from my point of view, extremely well.

But Trip - again, make me understand why I was so expendable? Where I strayed in my loyalty to you? Don't cry and moan about how you were an outsider and you were forced to make all of these moves to break up pairs. If you were alone, you were alone because you chose to play that way. Again, that's fine, but I don't want to sit here reading about it when you had just survived New Jedi - 4 straight, tricky votes - with me.

Despite knowing you were a paranoid, micro-managing type of player going back to the first Max boot, scenarios and events dictated I trust and work with you. I made it my priority on New Jedi to make up lost ground and try to form a real bond with you, and I thought the Johnny vote would have solidified a real level of trust. I stuck with you. I talked with you through every option and scenario; weighing pro's and con's. With the numbers so stacked against us, and having been gone at the beginning of the game more so than you, I HAD to rely on you and Lucy at the merge. I even posted this in my confessional -

Posted Image

It wasn't really that I had infatuation with you, but rather that I needed to have one really ally to work with. I knew you were trying to play the game you were playing to a certain extent, and from my point of view, here I was, a relative loner who had just survived the decimation of a tribe together with you. Why would he throw away me as an asset?

Again, if your strategy was just to blow things up along the way to make it interesting, so be it, that's awesome, but don't tell me you lost trust in me because I superficially said yes when a few other people approached me for an alliance, or that I didn't directly said you of said approach. That's ridiculous to me. Weigh actions over threats in the shadows. I played with one player the whole game - you.

You could have brought me in on the Lucy vote, and you certainly could have done a better job of explaining it to me after the fact or just abandoning me the way you did. It forced me to either sit back and put my fate in others hands, or try to swing for the fences. I swung for the fences - and missed (although, to be said, three of the people I worked hardest with that round are the F3 now). That's fine. I accepted my fate, but the move to boot Lucy, and then me, when we had a F3 together, seemed needless, or at least excessive, to me.

And that is where we really differ. You feel like anyone who has a side deal is a threat to you, or that because you and Player B are really close but Player B is closer to Player C than you, that that makes Player B a threat to you. I understand your rationale - trust me, I do - but I just disagree. I've always felt that you cannot be close with everyone because it's borderline impossible to cover that many bases and not be caught. You have to pick and choose and if you're good, and a bit lucky, you'll find a few allies that are really close and have connections you don't. To me, that's an asset. Lucy was an asset to you - the Buttercup boot proved that, or should have. I was an asset to you. You went a different route. Again, that is all well and good - but I still want to hear your thought processes surrounding the merge and those pivotal rounds.

Lastly, for now at least, ha, I loved New Jedi. I had a blast on that tribe. It was a pleasure playing with you those 4 rounds. A question about the Johnny vote though - it is my impression that I informed Juliet at the last minute, once it became clear Lucy had abandoned the plan, to vote Johnny and that is what forced the tie. I'm curious though - did she already know? I doubt you would throw your vote away like that, unless you thought you could just tell Johnny you voted Juliet because the votes weren't revealed. Just a fun tribe. Cannot wait to read about this game when the board opens up.
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Trip
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Ok. That's a lot. Here's the thing. I actually wanted to be your main ally before tribes were even formed. Because I logged on a day and a half late and realized really quickly how far behind I was. You were on vacation, so I figured we could help each other out. When I landed with you on Bonsai, I was actually pretty happy. But I quickly found out things I said to you got back to other people. You always assumed I was tighter with Apollo than you. I wasn't. You seem to think I made the move to vote out Max the first round. That was actually a combined effort. Daniel was the first person to suggest voting out Max to Apollo, who was comparing notes with me. I later found out from Max, after he came back into the game, that Daniel was actually only trying to make it seem like they weren't tight, when they were. It backfired on him because Apollo and I took him up on it. We could tell by the way he suddenly tried to back out that we were onto something, and guess what, we were. Max also admitted to me, when he came back into the game, that he and Daniel had an alliance with Apollo as a third and me as the fourth. You weren't even really in it. The crap they were telling us was fake. So, those were not shadows. That was a real threat. Unfortunately, for you, because we all started to notice that things we said to you got back to others, you ended up on the bottom. In fact, we tried to throw the challenge the last night on Bonsai to vote you out... but we failed to do so.

So going into Jedi, I didn't trust you... and I didn't trust Wes. It was always assumed between me, Apollo, and Daniel that you two had some sort of alliance going on, and I know you considered working with Wes to vote for Johnny instead of voting him out with us. I also know how tight you were with Juliet. I was somewhat tight with Lucy from before tribes were formed. Not sure if you ever noticed us using our password in public forums when we were separated... "peaches." I knew instantly I wanted to work with her. I threw Wes under the bus that first day because he never talked to me and you did. I pretended to be unified with you, but I was much tighter with Lucy. The longer we lasted on Jedi, the more I learned to tolerate you at first... and then eventually to trust you.

By the time we merged, I fully intended to work with you. Lucy and I worked feverishly hard to get the target off your back. Apollo and Buttercup had put it there. But I still had an alliance with Apollo and Daniel. One that I quickly stopped trusting because Apollo didn't message me for two days. I realized very quickly how fast people were reverting back to old alliances, and we weren't a part of any of them. You can argue with me all you want about Lucy... but I think you'll find when everything opens up that I was right about her. I tried bringing up her name to you a few times and you always got really defensive of her... so I made the move without you. After that, I considered working with you again, but I felt that bridge had been burned.

I wasn't paranoid much of this game. Most of my moves had nothing to do with paranoia, but with positioning. In fact, the round that had me the most paranoid was the round that killed me. It was the round I should have vote with Daniel, but voted him out instead.

I agree with you about Atreyu. I think he is an outstanding player. I don't think he was luring me into his trap the entire time. But he was certainly setting up traps with LOTS of people... myself and Apollo included. The thing is, you wanted me to get to talking with him, and he never really seemed to be as interested in working with us as you made it sound like. It kind of reminded me of the way he was acting about us working with Apollo. I knew he was tight with Rose early on. Somehow down the line, he led me to believe that he wanted to work with me, and I fell for it. It was around the time we voted Apollo out. That is when he really lured me into the trap. I had one round to get out of it... but I voted Daniel out instead. So kudos to him.

As far as the Johnny tie goes, Lucy was under the impression that you had told Juliet early in the day that the vote was for Johnny. I never told Juliet a thing because we agreed not to.

When did you become expendable? Basically when I decided to vote out Lucy and it didn't seem like you'd want to do it.

And I disagree with you on the issue of trust. I've played a lot of games where there was plenty of trust... but the trust was based in motives. In those games, I did well in my alliances, because the trust was based on mutual benefit and not on loyalty. The problem for me in this game is that nobody had long-term mutual benefits with me... just short-term. At some point either me or the other party would always benefit more from the arrangement than the other. Perhaps the only person that was not true of was you. But I did not realize at the time how much you actually wanted to work exclusively with me. Part of that might be the fact that Lucy told me you thought I was tighter with Apollo and that you offered her final two because of it.
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Romeo
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This is where I will always disagree with you in this game - and I say always, because I think, at this point, we have a fair idea of who each other are.

Giving initial resistance to an opinion is not in fact being "really defensive".

I look for allies where we can disagree, debate, and form a collective agreement on what is the best way to move forward. You, seemingly, look for allies who agree with your line of thinking without debate.

I remember explicitly going through the rounds with you at F10 and trying to give you an open look into my thought process. You did not come back at me with a radically different idea, or path. In fact, you agreed with me for the most part. And at this point you were fully working on getting rid of Lucy. You chose not to have that conversation with me - which was your right - but I do not once remember getting actively defensive about Lucy. All you probably did was express your own paranoia about Lucy and all I probably did was try and quell it. She had just voted off an ally of hers and another woman - I didn't see her as a threat to us. I saw her as an asset. I would have loved to have a conversation with you about her. You could have tried to convince me, but you chose not to take that route. Again, I don't begrudge you that, but I do believe if that was your reasoning that you were seeing "shadows".

We do have a different opinion on trust. As I've said - I do not care at all what you say to other players as long as it doesn't make me a target and your voting actions are lining up with your words to me. If it's F12 and your positioning yourself for a F2 with a mutual ally - I don't care. I just don't. I also don't need to feel that an ally is a threat because they have options I don't. I trust in my own ability to make sure I am Option A and Option B can be used for the collective advantage of our alliance.

That's why Lucy never scared me. She had great relationships with both Rose and Atreyu, but she also had every reason to think we were with her too. Even if she wasn't sincere with us, or as truthful as she said she was, she would have stuck with us for a few rounds where we could have worked collectively to position the board in our favor. To me, she was a very manageable and predictable asset.

Anyhow, my main qualm with you was always how you phoned it in with me after the Lucy boot. If you really wanted to work with me, you could have, but you gave me half ass and easily broken apart reasons for why you did what you did and I felt insulted.

I have no problems with your strategy and tactics Trip. I really don't. I thought it was awesome and I was politicking hard for them to possibly be rewarded in much of these jury forums. It's your reasoning that left me aggravated in the game, and tends to leave me aggravated still.

Few other thoughts -

- I do think - considering he knew exactly what type of player you were before I left when I basically had abandoned ship - that Atreyu was giving you the long con, using you until just the perfect time to cut the game out from beneath your feet. I thought it would be F5. I was one round too early.

- I did not tell Juliet until literally 2 minutes before the voting deadline that the vote was going to be for Johnny. Curious how you would have looked to play things had I either not told her or abandoned you on the re-vote of the tie?

- I thought you were closer to Apollo than me at Bonsai - which you were. After New Jedi, I figured that wouldn't be the case, and I never really thought that until the Lucy boot happened. I was always pretty aware of my positioning at Bonsai. I hated that tribe for how much things seemed to be stuck in cement from the first few days when I wasn't around. I never felt safe.

- You still made it far, but you had better moves than to cut me loose at F9. I don't say that selfishly - well, there has to be a tinge of that, but not much. To me, again, my entire strategy once I got to New Jedi was NEW LIFE. And as we kept losing, my main goal, especially after I rolled the dice with you at the Johnny vote, was to make myself invaluable to you. I obviously failed in letting you feel that way, but nevertheless, I was always - up until you gave up on me - going to be a tool in your pocket, and not in any others.
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Maximus
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By the way, Romeo, the main reason I was voting against you at F9 was because that's what Trip wanted, and I needed Trip in line until F7 when, if my trust of Dan and Apollo turned out to be justified, I didn't strictly speaking NEED Trip anymore (although I'd have abided by the F5 agreement, and even with the F3 with Laurie and Trip, believing that he'd move against the four of us before it became an issue, or that Apollo would make a move against me before it became an issue).

If it were up to me, I'd probably have gunned for Atreyu at that time instead of you, but I knew that Apollo wouldn't have gone for it, and Trip was set on voting you. At that point, it was just smarter to let him call that shot. In fact, I pitched that to Dan, Apollo and Wes that it was his "reward" for turning on Lucy and simplifying that whole F10 vote, especially since I knew I was one of the main targets of Lucy's crew at that point.
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Trip
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A couple things.

Romeo, I think you'll find, once this all wraps up, that Lucy plays much more like me than you realize. She would have cut me... though not necessarily you. By the time she cut Buttercup, it wasn't because we wanted to. She had her own reasons... most likely to do with positioning within her own alliance.

I did what I had to do on Bonsai to survive Bonsai. That's all there is to it. Then I did what I had to do on Jedi to survive Jedi. Once I got to the merge, it was a new game for me.

As for the way I sort of shut down on you after the Lucy vote, that's my bad. I'm sorry about that. I was getting offers from other people by that point, and keeping you in the game would have made me look less credible.

And as for Atreyu and the "long con," it's very possible, although he didn't really have me believing anything he said until the round we voted out Apollo. And I still would have voted with Daniel at final six if he had gone about that round differently. Part of me thought it was time to make a move, but he just seemed to be scrambling, so nothing he said came off as credible. If he hadn't said the things he said to Rose an Atreyu, I would have worked with him.

Max, I would have actually preferred to vote out Rose over Romeo. I just kept saying Romeo because it seemed like that's what everyone else wanted. I wanted Rose out almost all game.

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Romeo
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Lucy might have been like you - but she wasn't you. She wasn't as good, and I found her to be fairly predictable. Again, she got spooked to vote out Johnny - I actually would have trusted her LESS if she had just gone along with the original plan.

About shutting down on me, and I said this in the other thread - but if you wanted me to stay, I could have stayed that round. Most people here went along with that because they thought that was what YOU wanted and when you just agree with them, of course that affirmation is going to gain momentum. You didn't vouch for me or try to swing something with me. You abandoned me, and I think it was a bad move.

Did it destroy your game? No. Absolutely not. I loved your game. I did. And I still respect it. You were playing for you - it is an individual game - and you always made decisions and votes purely on how the vote would position you closer towards winning. I understand that, and can appreciate it, even when I don't agree with everything. The fact is I would have turned on you if needed- but I mistakenly overestimated my value to you. That's on me.

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Trip
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The thing about this game is there is a lot of information coming in from all sides. The more you play multiple sides, the more information that comes in. I was going through information overload, and I felt like voting you out would make everyone think I was more with them than I really was. It worked. The only people that were able to stop me were Atreyu, Rose, and Laurie.

Was it the right or wrong move? That's hard to say, but if it was the wrong move, I was able to make up for it. The one move I can say was the wrong move without a shadow of a doubt was voting out Dan.

That said, I always had mad respect for you in the game. I've really had a lot of respect for everyone, but I have a particular respect for you and Wes. It might not come through in my confessional, because my "play-by-play" thread is very in the moment. But stepping out of it all, you and Wes are the two that always made me have the most fun.
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