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Panessos Constitution [ABANDONED]
Topic Started: Sep 7 2013, 08:50 PM (1,271 Views)
Naybra
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Minister of Internal Affairs

Libraria and Ausitoria
Oct 13 2013, 03:44 PM
A few grammar mistakes are visible: in particular Section 7.02, 6.03, although the other cases are probably only a matter of style.

However, I would like to speak out against this version: my first complaint is that since it requires a two thirds majority to be amended, any things we wish to change later may be outrageously difficult to do so in the future when we have say a hundred members and a quarter of them can't be bothered to vote.

My second complaint is that it is so complicated and convoluted. It has been approached wrong: it is a wish list of everything we think at the moment that we might need, not a list of rules that we cannot do without. It is too long, going into boring details (which we might easily want to change later) like when people can declare their candidacy for office.

Finally, it is still vague at best and contradictory at worst. How can the Judiciary settle 'civil cases between nations' and the Senate 'regulate policies among member nations' when neither are allowed to interfere in 'internal operations' or 'sovereign rights'? Doesn't jurisdiction and customs/border policy count as a sovereign right?

I would prefer it if we start with a simple clearly defined constitution with only the most important skeleton, and add flesh slowly as it becomes necessary; rather than trying to do the whole body in one go.

I will say, amendment is 2/3 of Senators not everyone in the region. As of now, there are 15 registered Senators, making the necessary number only ten.
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Loufe
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Panelysian Senate Opposition Foreman

I'm fine with it
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Libraria and Ausitoria
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Prime Minister & Speaker of the Senate

Naybra
Oct 13 2013, 09:04 PM
I will say, amendment is 2/3 of Senators not everyone in the region. As of now, there are 15 registered Senators, making the necessary number only ten.

10 is still pretty difficult. See how many votes the current polls are getting. I would suggest that getting a mere majority of all Senators to vote either way wouldn't be easy.

If we are to have this Constitution, since I will be proposing several amendments, my first amendment proposal would be to change the voting requirements so we can get it over with a bit faster. A Constitution needs to be flexible, ductile, and malleable; not rigid and brittle.
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Naybra
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Minister of Internal Affairs

I make a motion to delay the start of voting for one week to discuss and amend this current Constitution. I feel that we should have some "bi-partisan" collaboration (if you would call it that) to make this Constitution better for us all.

I do believe a second and a third to this motion will suffice.
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Libraria and Ausitoria
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Prime Minister & Speaker of the Senate

Naybra, it is you who is starting the vote on this thing: you can choose whenever you want.

I will go through this section by section proposing changes, starting from tomorrow.
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Diablo
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I do like this constitution its not too restricting which is a good thing for a growing region. The one point that does concern a little that I picked up upon is the fact the Ministers hold their post for one month. I have mixed feelings on this, on the one hand it does keep things fresh and gives opportunities for more regions to hold a Government seat however to me I feel a month is a little too short. When a Minister takes office he comes in with ideas and it takes time to put into action all those plans they have. I prefer terms of a minimum of 6-8 weeks but of course these are just my humble opinion.
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Libraria and Ausitoria
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Prime Minister & Speaker of the Senate

Since there is no limit on being re-elected, I'd think incumbents should be able to campaign based on what they've started and what they would like to finish. But what does everybody else think?
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Libraria and Ausitoria
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Prime Minister & Speaker of the Senate

After having some time I didn't expect, I would like to propose the following modifications:

Proposal 1: To more clearly define the Legislature's and Judiciary's powers in relation the Reserved Sovereign Powers of Member nations:
Replace:
4.05 (i) and (ix) with:
(i) To legislate on the activities of the Regional Government enumerated herein and organizations of optional participation formed under it to (a) supplement, complement and co-ordinate the activities of member nations and (b) ensure the necessary and proper maintenance of law and order for carrying into execution the foregoing powers; in accordance with the Constitution and Nationstates rules and regulations,
4.05 (iii) with:
To regulate regional policy with foreign regions,
6.02 with:
6.02 ­ (i) The Judiciary shall exercise Supreme Jurisdiction over the following cases: (a) All cases affecting the position of Ambassadors, Ministers, or other regional government officials. (b) Treason against Panessos, consisting of levying war against regions or giving aid to the enemy. © Attempts by a user to add multiple nations to the Senate. (d) Posting other Member Nation's personal information without their consent. (e) Godmodding, trolling, or misconduct. (f) Interpretation of this Constitution.
(ii) The Judiciary may rule on the following cases: (a) Controversies to which Panessos shall be a party. (b) Civil and Criminal cases between two Member Nations. © Cases concerning an Inter­national Criminal case, in which both parties cannot agree on a place of trial.

8.01 (m) with:
(m) Self-­determination. Member nations shall reserve the right to voluntary disassociate themselves from any or all Regional Government activities and agencies, excluding them from the effect of applicable provisions; except the rulings of the Regional Judiciary in matters of their Jurisdiction defined in Section 6.02. Each Member Nation will maintain the right to pursue happy governance in accordance with their own customs and desires.

Proposal 2: So that the Senate can change election timetables without resorting to constitutional amendments.
Remove:
5.01 (i-ii) and renumber as appropriate, adding:
(vi)The WA Delegate may set other rules and requirements for elections proceedings in accordance with this Constitution unless the Senate has set other rules

Proposal 3: So that as the region gets larger, the Executive and the Judiciary can grow apart to achieve separation of powers.
Replace:
6.01 (i) with:
(a) The Supreme Court shall consist of the Founder, WA Delegate, and Minister of Internal Affairs, and such other Judges as the Senate may appoint for varied term lengths
and add (d):
(d) In the course of running the Judiciary, The Supreme Court may establish lesser courts, law offices, and employ lawyers and Judges as appropriate for the speedy administration of Justice, and to represent Panessos in cases where the Regional Government is party.

Proposal 4: Simplify Amendment Procedures while our Constitution remains young:
Replace 10.02 and 11.01 with:
10.02 ­ When a proposed amendment undergoes voting, a majority “For” or a two-thirds majority “For” out of those voting is required to pass the amendment.
11.01 ­ This Constitution must be voted and agreed upon by at least a majority of all Member Nations within Panessos to be ratified.
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Naybra
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Minister of Internal Affairs

Update Constitution based on Libraria and Ausitoria's recommendations. Any other suggestions?
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Libraria and Ausitoria
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Prime Minister & Speaker of the Senate

Thank you very much, now I can sleep more soundly. Incidentally if 4.05 (ix) is to be separate from (i) instead of how I proposed it in my 2nd Proposal, 4.05 (ix) had better read:

(ix) To also legislate on the activities of the regional government enumerated herein and organizations of optional participation formed under it to ensure the necessary and proper maintenance of law and order for carrying into execution the foregoing powers; in accordance with the Constitution and Nationstates rules and regulations.

And 4.05 (i) had better read:

(i) To legislate on the activities of the regional government enumerated herein and organizations of optional participation formed under it to supplement, complement and coordinate the activities of Member Nations; in accordance with the Constitution and Nationstates rules and regulations,

Which, to be frank, is far longer than my wording, even if simpler to understand:

(i) To legislate on the activities of the Regional Government enumerated herein and organizations of optional participation formed under it to (a) supplement, complement and co-ordinate the activities of member nations and (b) ensure the necessary and proper maintenance of law and order for carrying into execution the foregoing powers; in accordance with the Constitution and Nationstates rules and regulations,
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Ghant
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Libraria and Ausitoria
Oct 15 2013, 04:40 AM
Since there is no limit on being re-elected, I'd think incumbents should be able to campaign based on what they've started and what they would like to finish. But what does everybody else think?

This. The whole point of having one month terms is to prevent people from getting into office and then going away from NS while in office. If terms are only last month- it allows incumbents to campaign for re-election, and people who have positions but are gone to get filtered out.
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Ghant
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I want to suggest the following change to Libraria's amendment.

Old:
11.01 ­ This Constitution must be voted and agreed upon by at least a majority of all Member Nations within Panessos to be ratified.

New:
11.01 ­ This Constitution must be voted and agreed upon by at least a majority of all Senators within Panessos to be ratified.

Many member nations of Panessos are puppets and alts of Senators. I don't think it is fair for one person to have more then one vote, depending on how many he has. Someone could also flood the region with more puppets and alts in order to swing a vote.

This is why we should stick with the Senate, because the Senate represents the actual number of people that we have in the region.
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Diablo
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Ghant
Oct 17 2013, 07:58 AM
Many member nations of Panessos are puppets and alts of Senators. I don't think it is fair for one person to have more then one vote, depending on how many he has. Someone could also flood the region with more puppets and alts in order to swing a vote.
I agree. I don't know if you remember Ghant the trouble we had in Islandia with puppet nations in Government. A recipe for disaster.
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Libraria and Ausitoria
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Prime Minister & Speaker of the Senate

Hear hear!

Any more comments/suggestions, or should we put this up for vote some time roundabout the weekend?
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Ghant
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Diablo
Oct 17 2013, 08:59 AM
Ghant
Oct 17 2013, 07:58 AM
Many member nations of Panessos are puppets and alts of Senators. I don't think it is fair for one person to have more then one vote, depending on how many he has. Someone could also flood the region with more puppets and alts in order to swing a vote.
I agree. I don't know if you remember Ghant the trouble we had in Islandia with puppet nations in Government. A recipe for disaster.
Yes I remember. That is why I have been very hardline on who has a say in government. "One man, one vote" is my position.
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