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| Opinions from live home tourney; Be brutally honest | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 20 2007, 05:58 PM (300 Views) | |
| :rocklawr | Feb 20 2007, 05:58 PM Post #1 |
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Eye in the Sky!
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Had a tourney at my house this past weekend. Total of 15 players with a $100 buy in, no re-buys. Total starting chips were 2400. I merged tables with 9 players left. So here is the situation. We are down to 7 players. I was at 5150 (3'rd in chips - 14% of total chips) in chips and 3'rd to act from the blind pre-flop. I hold pocket 8's. Blinds are 200/400. Here is what everyone does. 1'st to act: fold 2'nd: call (chip leader) 3'rd: call (me) 4'th: fold 5'th: all in for 1400 SB: fold BB: calls after much deciding....he has 4200 in chips prior to the hand starting The initial caller folds. So if I call it is myself, the BB and the all-inner. I didn't put either on a hand. The all-inner was low stacked and I put him on suited connectors or A something. The BB I knew had nothing but A something. I decided to push the BB all in and scare him away. Let it get to heads up. If I lose then I only lose 1400 and still have 3750 left. The BB thinks for about a minute. I comment about a hand he previously had. FLASHBACK: He had called someone earlier with A 2 offsuit on their all-in bet. He called with no pairs showing for him with a King on the board. No straight or flush draw possible. The other player had A K so he had no right calling. He lost the hand but was still in the game. A couple of players said that was a ballsy move. I said that was stupid, not ballsy. BACK TO THE CURRENT HAND So I asked him if he had an A 2 on the current hand. He said close, but a little bit better. Now I had him on A something suited, not a picture card...either a 7 or a 9. Finally he calls and turns over A 10 spades. I'm shocked he calls but keep my mouth shut. The all-inner shows pocket Jacks which I was way off on. But no matter, I win against the BB and I move from 5150 to 6600. Flop is 5s 9h Qs. Turn is 7d. River, of course, is the 2s. He hits the flush knocking out the allinner and crippling me to 950. I just stood up in disgust and looked at him and said, "What the F*CK were you doing in that hand?" I didn't wait for an answer. The break had hit during that hand and I needed a beer. Came back after the break and lost with K J on my first hand back. Out in 6'th. He ends up winning the tourney by getting lucky all night. Catching river sets. Flopping sets with nothing hands. It happens. So, I know I easily could've gotten away from the hand with a minimal 400 loss. I chose to play the hand and not wait for a monster. I read him perfectly and he made a bad call in my opinion and got lucky. So my questions are: 1) Was my play bad? 2) Would you have gone all in with those cards in that situation? 3) Are you happy I lost that way? 4) Is it wrong to love cheese as much as I do? |
| "You, me, or nobody is gonna hit as hard as life. But it ain't about how hard ya hit. It's about how hard you can get it and keep moving forward. How much you can take and keep moving forward." | |
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| MightyRedRaider | Feb 20 2007, 06:40 PM Post #2 |
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On the button!
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1) Was my play bad? No, not really. You correctly read the hand that mattered. You forgot to factor in that he was an idiot. He'll call with any A or perhaps any two suited cards. He was going to call your All-in with an A2, remember? You couldn't have run him off preflop. Best to see the flop, then use position to make that move. Still, he had four to a flush and might have stayed anyway. Make a large scary bet post flop, not all in. Folks will call all in faster than a large scary bet. All in all, not a bad move, but you can't make moves against idiots. 2) Would you have gone all in with those cards in that situation? No. Mid pairs are good cards, but at that stage I wouldn't bet my whole stack. As a drawing hand? Yes. As a make a move hand a against weakness, yes.(Remember, he didn't know he was weak yet) Against a fellow that just called an all in? I have a tough time going all in. 3) Are you happy I lost that way? I grieve with thee. 4) Is it wrong to love cheese as much as I do? Well, how are your cholesterol numbers? Are you having trouble with constipation? Any lactose intolerance issues? If no, have another nacho, my friend! There are government programs just for you! |
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| Cubs231721 | Feb 20 2007, 09:17 PM Post #3 |
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On the button!
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I have to say, I don't like the play-your chance to isolate the short stack was minimal. After your raise all-in, the bb had 2800 left to call into a pot of 7600 already-if he was calculating pot odds with an A/rag, he is priced in to call getting almost 3 to 1 pot odds-even if you have pocket kings or A/K suited, he's still getting about the right odds to call. So he's actually somewhat justified making that call at that point. Add to that with him making questionable calls anyway, all that money in the pot is going to make him call-players like that don't call a raise and then fold to another raise. So basically, you're likely to be in a race with the guy (if your A/9 thought was correct) and you still have no idea what the short stack has. The short stack has a great chance of actually having a hand-why would he move in to the hand otherwise? He's on the button with 2 callers in front of him-even with only 3 1/2 times the bb, people don't move all-in for that little after two callers without a hand. He had to have either a pair or at least two overcards to your card. So basically you're in two separate races, and maybe up against a higher pair against the short stack. I just don't like putting most of your chips in when you don't have to against 2 other people that you're likely going to be in a coin flip for. |
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| OneDaySale | Feb 21 2007, 08:00 AM Post #4 |
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Chip -n- chair
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On a quick glance, I agree with almost everything cubs says... Two points: 1) Short stack has an M of 2.3. Many people would be all in with a wide range of hands at this point, not so likely to have the pair/two overcards if he has read Harrington. 2) Different people have different levels of aversion to coinflips. We know the BB would love to make the whole tourney a coinflip. Rock has to decide whether he feels the same way. I've been told I love a coin flip or two ...
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| [size=7]KK[/size] on sale for 40% off!#BLOCK^_^DATA##BLOCKv_vDATA# | |
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| :rocklawr | Feb 21 2007, 11:02 AM Post #5 |
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Eye in the Sky!
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All good points. For the record I am not a believer in relying on pot odds to decide whether I should make calls or not. I may use it as a guide but not as the be all, end all decision maker. Especially with my tourney life on the line and I feel I'm the worst hand. Especially when I feel that my better card is duplicated. I failed to mention that he thought I had A K when he flipped over. But that doesn't justify my play and I accept your points. Will take that into consideration for future games. I think MRR made the best point in regards to whom I was playing. Clearly the guy didn't have a clue to begin with so trying to chase him away with poker logic would not work. |
| "You, me, or nobody is gonna hit as hard as life. But it ain't about how hard ya hit. It's about how hard you can get it and keep moving forward. How much you can take and keep moving forward." | |
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| MightyRedRaider | Feb 21 2007, 04:53 PM Post #6 |
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On the button!
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Pot odds are all well and good for a post-mortem analysis, but when you are talking about making moves with 88 against Ax, well it just isn't all about the math anymore. I understand Rock's logic in his move, it's just that the move was against a guy who didn't do pot odds, and wanted to see a flop. He was going to stick. He MIGHT have folded post flop against a perceived pair or set of Q's, but he may have staked his tournament life on the flush draw. Who knows? |
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| Cubs231721 | Feb 22 2007, 12:01 AM Post #7 |
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On the button!
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I doubt he would have folded with a flush draw-he might not have even folded if he hadn't hit anything on the flop. He seems like a player that doesn't calculate pot odds but does look at the pot and go "Wow-there's a lot of money out there, I can't fold regardless" even if he has no hand and would save valuable money that he could use later if he would fold. |
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| Cubs231721 | Feb 22 2007, 12:09 AM Post #8 |
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On the button!
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Just a short thought on your first point-since the person has just been through the 2 blind spots and has that short of a stack, they either just took a big beat or are playing very tight. If they were going to go all-in with a wide range of hands, they likely would have done it already in one of the blinds-the fact that they didn't and are instead waiting for a different hand narrows the range of hands that they are going to push the rest of their money in with when they know it's likely that they are going to get at least 2 callers, and possibly 3. I'm actually somewhat shocked that the first person who limped in for 400 then refused to call 1000 more-he might have been worried about the squeeze play that you actually did Rock, but at the same time he can't be thinking you have a monster (why be the second limper in a pot like that with a monster with the blinds that high-that wouldn't make much sense), and if you don't have a monster, a squeeze play with 2 callers in front of you would be unlikely to make. So I can't even think of a hand I would call 400 and then fold to a 1000 raise in that spot when I know I will most likely be seeing the flop for that amount. |
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| MightyRedRaider | Feb 22 2007, 11:08 AM Post #9 |
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On the button!
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Personally, I am more than a little miffed the Rock chose to ignore my thoughtful and insightful response to the cheese question. Did he just not like that answer? Can he handle the truth? I'm hurt that he just blew it off.
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| :rocklawr | Feb 22 2007, 12:25 PM Post #10 |
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Eye in the Sky!
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Cubs, I was curious about that as well. But he is my father in law and so who knows what he was thinking. Plus he was PO'd when he got knocked out in 3'rd and left the house in a rush so I never got to ask. In regards to the all-inner, that was my father. His ideal of a good hand is any suited connectors. He will play them for a raise if the mood fits him right. He would probably fold a mid-pair before he folds suited connectors. But he will not bluff unless he is chip leader which is why he didn't push all in earlier to that moment. MRR, Sorry, didn't get to respond to your cheese response earlier. I was about to but then decided to throw some wine cheese on a cracker and go to town. Priorities man....priorities. |
| "You, me, or nobody is gonna hit as hard as life. But it ain't about how hard ya hit. It's about how hard you can get it and keep moving forward. How much you can take and keep moving forward." | |
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| nyrajf | Feb 23 2007, 12:31 PM Post #11 |
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Chip -n- chair
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I'm sure this has already been said, but you broke the golden rule of poker: Don't triple someone up. If you know the third player has an ace in his hand and you don't really have a great read on the first player, you've gotta get outta the way. And no, love cheese. Love it. |
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| :rocklawr | Feb 23 2007, 12:36 PM Post #12 |
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Eye in the Sky!
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Is that really the golden rule AJ? Sounds more like the copper rule. The golden rule should be something like, "Never be in a position where you have to risk all of your chips" or "Position in poker is like position in sex, always maximize your leverage." |
| "You, me, or nobody is gonna hit as hard as life. But it ain't about how hard ya hit. It's about how hard you can get it and keep moving forward. How much you can take and keep moving forward." | |
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| guyaveck | Feb 23 2007, 04:08 PM Post #13 |
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On the button!
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golden rule : fold KJ. As for your hand.... and my opinions are entirely my own, do with it as you please. I also say to fold KJ but who really cares. You said to be brutally honest ; im gonna be plain old brutal. mistake 1: limping with 88. the original all iner was the button, you have to be prepared to call an all in from the short stack button at all times, so unless you think you have the best hand when the button is short stack, i think its wise to fold. mistake 2: the BB called the 1400, puttin 1400 of his 4200 into the pot leaving him with only 2800. You decided to try and push him out. Heres the problem in fact there are two. 1) He has a 1/3 of his chips in and at the time of your all in the pot was at 7200 ( if you take aside your leftover chips). Calling the 1400 commits him to the hand preflop. You wont be able to push him out. 2) You recalled a hand where he had A2 and called an all in with nothing but Ace high, you called it stupid. If you put him on an Ace this time around, what makes you think he would fold it this time? mistake 3: asking him about his hand. A common tell in live poker is when someone asks the opposing player what he has when he has a decision to make. Out of instinct, you are going to ask him abouta hand you expect he has, but dont want him to call with. ( I once did that: asked if he had a royal flush, and naturally he had it) Now im not saying this is the biggest mistake... you said he was a stupid player so he probably wouldnt know what your cards were if you showed them to him. mistake 4: "Flopping sets with nothing hands."- Its only called a set if you have a pocket pair, not hitting 2 on the flop. Thats called trips. Pocket pairs arent nothing hands. mistake 5- YOUR BIGGEST MISTAKE:"Came back after the break and lost with K J on my first hand back." See my golden rule about the cheese- mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. After all that is said, once again the donkey won, jajajajajajaja!! I think i overanalyzed the hand and in the moment its tough to think all that through. Its easy to say it all now, once you know the outcome.So I dont think you played badly BUT you did lose on KJ. hint hint PS: for now and the future, know that I never look at other peoples responses to poker hands before I give my opinions. Plagiarism sucks |
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In the long run there's no luck in poker, but the short run is longer than most people know. -- Rick Bennet #BLOCK^_^DATA##BLOCKv_vDATA# | |
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