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DK's Conceptualisations
Topic Started: Dec 16 2013, 09:44 PM (842 Views)
DK1000
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I don't know if anyone else is still wanting to continue this project, there certainly hasn't been a lot of activity here or over at the Spec Evo forums topic as of late, but I hope I'm not the only one still interested. While I've been neglecting to visit the project on a regular basis, I've still been having ideas and in an attempt to breathe some life back into this place I'll be sharing them here.

The first idea I'll share is a fairly recent one, and it relates to the placodonts. As I've made clear, I can't see the durophagous placodonts surviving past the "Toarcian Turnover" event, with Henodus-esque placodonts possibly being the only survivors. As pointed out, this would leave an open niche for any potential marine shellfish-eater to fill and adapt to a similar lifestyle. I speculated that such a niche might be left empty for a considerable amount of time, as is what appears to have happened on Earth-Prime, while TDP speculated that mosasaur-esque pleurosaurs might produce a species adapted to that particular niche (similar to the mosasaur Globidens on EP).

Recently I had been thinking about another group of triassic reptiles, doswelliids. They proved to be quite a puzzle as to exactly what their ecological niche was, there's little information on how they lived, what they ate and there's barely anything for us to go on. The most I can get is that they appear to be generalists, which I'd say opens the doors for some peculiar specialisations to develop. That's not to say doswelliids aren't already peculiar, they most certainly are, their ribs project out horizontally and turn down at 90 degrees, that's definitely peculiar. I could picture doswelliids fusing their ribs together, essentially creating a box-shaped shell around their bodies. Their fairly low slung, close to the ground with a flat underside, so I could easily picture them moving into a semi-aquatic, and then perhaps even an aquatic existence, particularly along the sea bed. The back of the skull and jaws are wide, which could in theory anchor large jaw muscles and so have a powerful bite, while their snouts are long and thin, perhaps capable of snuffling around or prying into things.

If you're not catching my drift here, what I'm suggesting is that we have a group or lineage of doswelliids move into a semi-aquatic niche, with a tough shell and strong bite that could be capable of crushing tough prey items such as shellfish. Perhaps, after the durophagous placodonts die out, their niche is filled by these doswelliids. Not necessarily immediately after their gone, but perhaps these doswelliids could inhabit a similar niche some time after the durophagous placodonts go extinct.

Thoughts?
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Jack Frost
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Sounds fairly likely to me. I could even see a few of them becoming ambush predators, akin to snapping turtles.
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DK1000
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Jack Frost
Dec 19 2013, 10:40 PM
Sounds fairly likely to me. I could even see a few of them becoming ambush predators, akin to snapping turtles.
Perhaps coexisting with the freshwater, filter/suction-feeding henodontids?
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Jack Frost
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Exactly. Even taking a snap at hatchings and juveniles perhaps.
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the dark phoenix
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I still see turtles in this work though but as you mentioned with those niches, the diversity would be less.

I would scrap the pleurosaurs-mosasaur idea now since you came up with the dos.....things.

Since Henodont plantivores will be present and I made toothed whale-like Ichthyosaurs, I think the oceanic Dicynodont idea can be put to rest unless we want Walrus, Desmostylian, and Manatee analogs.
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DK1000
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the dark phoenix
Jan 5 2014, 05:37 PM
I would scrap the pleurosaurs-mosasaur idea now since you came up with the dos.....things.

How would durophagous doswellids be getting in the way of pleurosaur evolution? I don't recall pleurosaurs being specialised for, or even leaning towards a similar lifestyle, so I can't really see any competition between them. If anything, the continued presence of ichthyosaurs would be the ones getting in the way of pleurosaur-mosasaurs, since mosasaurs were essentially ichthyosaurs evolving all over again (it's no coincidence early ichthyosaurs resemble mosasaurs and the more advanced mosasaurs resemble ichthyosaurs). If the ichthyosaurs never died out, mosasaurs as we know them would likely have never evolved, so if the ichthyosaurs never die out on Earth Nova then I can't see anything else filling the niche of mosasaurs except for the ichthyosaurs themselves.

That's not to say there pleurosaurs don't have potential, for quite a while know I've slowly been developing a new group of pleurosaurs (not on the species level, just the group in general) which I feel as though I've more or less perfected, and I'll probably flesh out the idea sometime soon.

the dark phoenix
Jan 5 2014, 05:37 PM
Since Henodont plantivores will be present and I made toothed whale-like Ichthyosaurs, I think the oceanic Dicynodont idea can be put to rest unless we want Walrus, Desmostylian, and Manatee analogs.

That seemed like the general direction we were headed with dicyrenians anyway, so I think the concept is safe for now.

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the dark phoenix
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I won't be making freshwater ichthyosaurs so we can have freshwater pleurosaur-mosasaurs.

If squamata is not around then seasnakes won't be either..... or monitor lizards... So maybe some pleurosaurs can stay on land or....... IDK how the snakes appeared in EP so you can have that. I'm sticking with archosaurs, ichthyosaurs, and nothosaurs and possibly some pterosaurs
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DK1000
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the dark phoenix
Jan 6 2014, 05:28 AM
I won't be making freshwater ichthyosaurs so we can have freshwater pleurosaur-mosasaurs.

Could work, so long as we find a way to avoid them competing with phytosaurs somehow.

the dark phoenix
Jan 6 2014, 05:28 AM
If squamata is not around then seasnakes won't be either..... or monitor lizards... So maybe some pleurosaurs can stay on land or....... IDK how the snakes appeared in EP so you can have that. I'm sticking with archosaurs, ichthyosaurs, and nothosaurs and possibly some pterosaurs

Seasnake-type pleurosaurs sound like a good possibility, they were already quite long and sinuous in shape, so becoming limbless or near-limbless à la snakes seems plausible. As for monitor lizards, I don't see why pleurosaurs have to move into a similar niche, they seemed to be moving in an aquatic direction, and surely other sphenodonts would be capable of filling that niche without the need for pleurosaurs to become terrestrial again? (Oh, and haven't nothosaurs evolved into pistosauroids and plesiosaurs by this point? Granted Nothosaurus is still around, but isn't at the point where it's being outcompeted by pistosauroids (that includes plesiosaurs) as in EP?)




I've also been toying around with the concept of the cursorial shuvosaurids I previously mentioned over at the Spec Evo forums, I'm still in to their concept and I haven't changed much about their general anatomy, however I've been doing some thinking about their feet. I'll try and elaborate on this at a later time, hopefully when I can produce a proper sketch of the new feet anatomy, and while I'm at it I'll probably talk a little more about them in general.
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the dark phoenix
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Quote:
 
Could work, so long as we find a way to avoid them competing with phytosaurs somehow.


Maybe they eat different sized prey?

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Seasnake-type pleurosaurs sound like a good possibility, they were already quite long and sinuous in shape, so becoming limbless or near-limbless à la snakes seems plausible.


Glad we can agree.

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I don't see why pleurosaurs have to move into a similar niche, they seemed to be moving in an aquatic direction, and surely other sphenodonts would be capable of filling that niche without the need for pleurosaurs to become terrestrial again?


I saw non-pleorosaur sphenodonts as more like bearded dragons and iguanas but my knowledge in Sphenodontia is low so I guess another animal can take it. (Geosuchids are like weasel-monitor-crocodile-things anyway)

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(Oh, and haven't nothosaurs evolved into pistosauroids and plesiosaurs by this point? Granted Nothosaurus is still around, but isn't at the point where it's being outcompeted by pistosauroids (that includes plesiosaurs) as in EP?)


I just realized we still have those......DANGIT. Where would those fit in the ecosystem!
Edited by the dark phoenix, Jan 7 2014, 04:32 AM.
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the dark phoenix
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Any new ideas DK1000?
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DK1000
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Well I've got some new ideas for an older concept; I got around to sketching up the new feet anatomy for the supercursorial shuvosaurids:

Spoiler: click to toggle


Like I said before, the general anatomy has remained the same; small head, toothless beak, long neck, no arms, long legs, etc. Compared with the previous sketch, the hindlimbs are much longer and better suited for a supercursorial lifestyle, and the feet have had a complete overhaul. When I first envisioned these shuvosaurids, I gave them pretty generic looking feet, however after looking at the feet of other supercursorial animals and the feet of shuvosaurids like Effigia, I've made some alterations.

Digit III is the main weight bearing toe when running and sprinting, the rest of the toes only touch the ground when the animal is walking or at rest. As a result, the inner two digits have been reduced, with digit II being quite stumpy and digit I being lost entirely. Digit II is essentially useless, essentially filling the role of the hallux. The only reason why digit II hasn't been lost entirely is because it was smaller than digit I, roughly the same size as digit III (diagram G). Because digit I was smaller, it was lost more easily, while digit II would take longer to be lost. By the time digit II got the size it was, it wasn't a hindrance to the shuvosaurids, so the toe remained as it was, albeit now functionally useless.

Digit IV has also been reduced, but not to the extend of digit II, it's just long enough to help support the animal when standing or walking, much like an ostrich foot (digit II provides little support, and like I said, is functionally useless).

Digit V, however, has changed quite radically. The digit has been adapted into a large spur, similar to the thumb-spike of iguanodonts, and faces out away from the animal. This spur can be used as a weapon against predators, both when sprinting and when fighting at close quarters. Coupled in with a kick from the powerful legs, this spur can be a lethal weapon against attackers.
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Jack Frost
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I'm liking where your going with these.
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the dark phoenix
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What if the animal fell over? He's Rauchi food then.
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DK1000
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the dark phoenix
Jan 20 2014, 04:23 AM
What if the animal fell over? He's Rauchi food then.
Well if they fell over running/sprinting at high speed, it would probably result in serious injury.

However if they fell/tripped while moving at a more reasonable pace they could easily right themselves by just rolling over and pushing up with their legs. If ratites have no problem with falling over, and if abelisaurids evidently had no problem, then surely these shuvosaurids shouldn't have a problem either.
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the dark phoenix
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Okay.

Also....

With phytosaurs, nothosaurs, and other things entering the fresh water. What will become of the huge amphibians?
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DK1000
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I'd have thought Temnospondyls would have continued to do fairly well, the presence of other semi-aquatic predators never seemed to bother them during the Triassic, so I doubt things would change much for them.

Although, I've been thinking about the possibility of introducing a clade of exclusively marine temnospondyls, perhaps eventually becoming the world's only full-time deep sea tetrapods.
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the dark phoenix
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DK1000
Jan 20 2014, 11:13 PM
I'd have thought Temnospondyls would have continued to do fairly well, the presence of other semi-aquatic predators never seemed to bother them during the Triassic, so I doubt things would change much for them.

Although, I've been thinking about the possibility of introducing a clade of exclusively marine temnospondyls, perhaps eventually becoming the world's only full-time deep sea tetrapods.
Salt water amphibians?

How could that happen?
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DK1000
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I don't know the exact mechanics, but at least some trematosaurid temnospondyls are already known to have been fully marine in the Triassic, so they were already capable of such a lifestyle.
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the dark phoenix
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What niche can they serve?
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DK1000
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Regular temnospondyls or marine trematosaurids?
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the dark phoenix
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DK1000
Jan 21 2014, 05:18 PM
Regular temnospondyls or marine trematosaurids?
Both I guess
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DK1000
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Regular temnospondyls would probably stay in the same niches they already occupy, semi-aquatic predators.

Marine temnospondyls, however, are the ones with opportunity for some speccing. One idea I've been thinking about is fully aquatic (i.e. gilled) temnospondyls that lie on the sea bed, covered in tassels, lobes and whiskers and the like to camouflage themselves, similar in lifestyle to wobbegongs.
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the dark phoenix
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DK1000
Jan 22 2014, 11:41 PM
Regular temnospondyls would probably stay in the same niches they already occupy, semi-aquatic predators.

Marine temnospondyls, however, are the ones with opportunity for some speccing. One idea I've been thinking about is fully aquatic (i.e. gilled) temnospondyls that lie on the sea bed, covered in tassels, lobes and whiskers and the like to camouflage themselves, similar in lifestyle to wobbegongs.
Speaking of sharks where do they fit here? More diverse, less diverse, normal?
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DK1000
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the dark phoenix
Jan 23 2014, 03:12 AM
DK1000
Jan 22 2014, 11:41 PM
Regular temnospondyls would probably stay in the same niches they already occupy, semi-aquatic predators.

Marine temnospondyls, however, are the ones with opportunity for some speccing. One idea I've been thinking about is fully aquatic (i.e. gilled) temnospondyls that lie on the sea bed, covered in tassels, lobes and whiskers and the like to camouflage themselves, similar in lifestyle to wobbegongs.
Speaking of sharks where do they fit here? More diverse, less diverse, normal?
I'm not particularly experienced with prehistoric sharks (although I'm sure I'll end up looking into them), but I'd imagine they'd probably be more or less similar to how they are on EP, unless we decide to muck around with them a bit.
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Jack Frost
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One thing I am curious about is if Placodonts are surviving, would that effect turtle evolution.
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