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Saints Vs Falcons - Friday 25th Nov - 9.45 - Franklin Guardens
Topic Started: Nov 23 2016, 06:34 PM (874 Views)
Wibble
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In Finland for work but thought i should start this.

If i do an Elma on my phone forgive me.

Simply we must win. We can not afford many more losses and at home vs a weaker club we just must put in a winning performance.

We have a good deep squad so thats a bonus. We might not be flying high but we're winning. Keep that up firstly.

I want 5 points but a strong win with 2 trys would be an improvement.

I hope to be back in time to watch but the motorways are never kind on a Friday.
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happyclapper
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Agree with all of that.
A good win with a convincing performance over 5 points.
But this is a game we should be targeting 5 points from.

Having said that, and as I've said elsewhere, kick the 3 points, keep the scoreboard ticking over, put the pressure on and let the tries take care of themselves.
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ElmaFudd
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Agreed especially like the idea of "Doing an Elma" 😂. That actually sums our season up try to do the right thing but lack of execution and focus letting us down.

If the team can avoid "Doing an Elma" on Friday and get the basics right we should be able to get a win. Also a good home performanxe will make all of us doubting supporters think again so despite nit being a big draw tjis has the feel of a big game.

Really hoping that we rise to the challange and as its mid week I'm feeling confident we can pull one out of the bag.

I'm going for top points this week, lets hope I'm right.
Edited by ElmaFudd, Nov 24 2016, 08:27 AM.
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happyclapper
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We'll be without Clark.
Should have either Woody or T back.
Just depends if Jim decides to play them or not when they haven't trained with the team all week.
Personally I would as we need our best players on the pitch.
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big mac returns
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Both Woody and T have been included by England.

means an opportunity for either nutters or Ludlem.

a convincing win would be great! but a wins a win!
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happyclapper
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It's a 24 man England squad at the moment.
Someone will get cut from the forwards, either Wood, Harrison or Ewels I would guess. But with Kruis back from injury I suspect a specialist second row will be on the bench. Robshaw is at 6, Billy at 8, Hughes on the bench. So either Woody or T released is my view.
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big mac returns
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Wood starts, T on the bench for england



NORTHAMPTON SAINTS TEAM TO PLAY NEWCASTLE
Aviva Premiership Round 9
Franklin’s Gardens
Friday, November 25th, 2016
Kick off 7:45pm
15 Ben Foden
14 Jamie Elliott
13 Luther Burrell
12 Rory Hutchinson
11 Tom Collins
10 Stephen Myler
9 Tom Kessell
1 Alex Waller
2 Mikey Haywood
3 Kieran Brookes
4 James Craig
5 Christian Day (capt)
6 Michael Paterson
7 Jamie Gibson
8 Ben Nutley

16 Charlie Clare
17 Ethan Waller
18 Paul Hill
19 Jordan Onojaife
20 Lewis Ludlam
21 Nic Groom
22 JJ Hanrahan
23 James Wilson
thats a poor backrow, gunna be a tough game

JJ back on the bench, Groom back as well.


15 Alex Tait
14 Vereniki Goneva
13 Dominic Waldouck
12 Juan Pablo Socino
11 Marcus Watson
10 Joel Hodgson
9 Michael Young

1 Rob Vickers
2 Scott Lawson
3 David Wilson
4 Calum Green
5 Will Witty
6 Callum Chick
7 Mark Wilson (captain)
8 Ally Hogg

Replacements
16 Ben Sowrey
17 Alex Rogers
18 Scott Wilson
19 Nick Civetta
20 Opeti Fonua
21 Sam Egerton
22 Brett Connon
23 Fred Burdon


still rather have our side then theres.
Edited by big mac returns, Nov 24 2016, 01:49 PM.
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ElmaFudd
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Agreed the back row doesn't look great but then last weeks wasnt much better except we had Clark who nearly cost us the match. So I'm hoping these lads can prove a point.
Edited by ElmaFudd, Nov 24 2016, 02:04 PM.
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happyclapper
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I think this could be tough. The backs look fairly evenly matched and they have some out and out pace.
Good to see two proper wingers playing for us.
Not sure why Craig at 5 and Patterson at 6, I'd have them the other way round, get some more weight into the engine room.
Back row does not look the best but if they get stuck in could be good. Again, I'd have Gibson at 8 and Nutters at 7.
Their pack has three seasoned campaigners and not a lot else.
I'd like to hope we can play the percentages, kick the points and put them under pressure.
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Hood56
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What the hell was that red for. Barely a yellow let alone a red
How is a Brooks doing a shoulder barge a red, then one Newcastle player doing one straight after nothings worth nothing....?

Only logical explanation is this ref is a distant cousin of Wayne Barnes
Edited by Hood56, Nov 25 2016, 09:41 PM.
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flanker
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Watched it on TV and similar performance to the rest of the season. Perked up at the beginning of the second half but Newcastle were by far the better team overall. On TV Brooks looked definitely to deserve a red. No attempt to tackle and in effect a forearm smash to the head.

As the commentators said our backs are a shadow of what they were a couple of years ago. Their passing is poor and often not just in front of the running player. Myler is too deep and didn't control the game consistently (some good kicking in the second half) . He is predictable, seldom runs himself and passes too soon. We go backwards. Commentators observed we haven't made a major backs signing since North and we need them. Sorry to say, glad I wasn't there.
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ElmaFudd
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Sorry that's the final straw for me. Jim and Nobby have no answers and have to go. That showing was a disgrace to the club. We are not even close to playing as a team did we even have a gameplan because it didn't look like it.

How on earth have we got to the point that our backs can't make any line breaks. All any team has to do is give us the ball and defend we will go backwards everytime.

Red card notwithstanding we should have won that. Stupid calls. Poor discipline. Woeful basic skills and no belief. The players were beaten before rhe whistle and the crowd knew it. Hardly any atmosphere but teally nothing to cheer about. My optimism has evaporated totally now.

Newcastle were not good a gift of a try won it for them but having said that they deserved the win. Utterly ckueless in attack. Disorganised defence and most importantly players looking terrified of making a choice.
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happyclapper
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Yeah it wasn't great was it.
We seemed to get better in the second half and should have won the game but for the intercept.
I think on balance neither team deserved to win.
And the fact Hodgson got MoM shows how poor a game it was.

Re the red. By the letter of the law, you can't argue it. However, I am annoyed at two things:
1) The TMO clearly called for the replay due to the injury to Young. He then shifted focus. I think you should only be able to look at what you've called the replay for.
2) As was mentioned above, how was the challenge on Brooks any different to his challenge. They were both a forearm to the head/face/shoulder.

An on a separate note, I've tried to steer clear of arguments re the games getting soft, or it needs to be cleaned up, but this was very soft.
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ElmaFudd
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HC, Newcastle were rubbish but still managed to make 3 times as many meters as we did. Only once did our backs get behind them and Foden managed to drop the ball.

Not getting into the Red card debate. I didn't think the officials looked any more competent than our players but thats probably just my one eye. Offside, high tackles playing the ball on the floor all ignored but the loss wasn't down to them.

I think the red made us wake up and play. If only we hadn't tried to force that last pass which wasn't on we would have held out for a win, but then that would only have been a sticking plaster and maybe loosing is needed to force some changes sooner rather than later.

Tigers will muller us next week.
Edited by ElmaFudd, Nov 26 2016, 12:26 PM.
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Wibble
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No we will probably scrape a result to hide the problems a bit longer.

I know we have a lot missing but we need all our squad to be capable of a win at home vs teams like this.

Jim needs to sort this now. Our attack gets worse every week.
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chesty
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elma fudd spot on we have nothing ,love the fact that people on this column go on about the youngsters watched them they are not good enough.Two years of bad recruiting Jim no excuses go.
BY THE WAY WOULD GOOD FULL BACK IN THE PREM HAVE MISSED THE TACKLE.
Will collect my thoughts.
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flanker
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13 players out admittedly but skill levels poor overall. BT commentators were critical of Foden's approach to that tackle. Easy to say but you don't allow the winger to cut back and beat you inside.
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big mac returns
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Plenty of full backs would have missed that tackle, zero scrum half's would have thrown that pass.....

Not sure you can blame the kids, hutch n Collins did nothing wrong.

That was worst game I've seen in a long time! Sign a attack coach or get pat lam in. Our back row was the issue couldn't win ball. The forwards were slow around the park.

Never a red, have to have about 30 reds a game if that's case.

Briefly spoke to day after, he looked bad. Be out for a bit I think.

Season is bust imo, just need to scrap for top 6.
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ElmaFudd
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Daisy tweeted he's got a sore head this morning but otherwise feeling ok. So hopefully just a week or two out.

Agree regarding the pass. At the stage in the match with 14 on the pitch it was a horrendous decision. As you say the kids really didn't do too much wrong apart from Kessel who had a really poor match. Not even sure you can blame the backrow to be honest we had enough ball just not able to make any usr of it.

Wibble, love the optomism but Tigs at the roundabout with the majority of our 1st choice out and playing how we are we are literally falling apart before our eyes week by week and the rot is accelerating.
Edited by ElmaFudd, Nov 26 2016, 12:30 PM.
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Onward
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So we have now scored the least number of tries in the prem.
Not much point looking back I suppose but where are the correspondents now who said let the youngsters have a go and we will be ok.
Months ago I went on about successful clubs recruiting well with major signingswhen they were winning to stay at the top.No names but some felt that 'we dont do it that way'. Right we didnt and look where its got us. A shambles.
I dont know about clearout at the end of the season, its more likely to be walk out.
Big concern is though that we do have some class players (not enough) that are not performing as they could. So you are left with one conclusion.......... its the coaching. Fine chap that Jim is he seems to have lost the plot and what has happened to our once feared scrum Westie?
Any chance the money people are restricting recruitment?
Where are you Geech we need a rebuild
Dont want to hear excuses from the club like injuries, internationals, we are learning from our mistakes, etc.oh and the we are going to sprint up the table towards the end of the season
I hope thereis some depth planning going on at board level


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Bedford Saint
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Cant disagree with much anyone has said. I didnt post last night for fear I would be banned from the site.

The first half performance was the most abysmal performance I have seen, we played better the season we got relegated. Falcon cut us to pieces on numerous occasions and we were lucky the Ref chalked off the try for obstruction on Luther.

The sending off galvanised us in the 2nd half and but for Kessells stupidity we would have got out of jail. Not going to blame Foden as I believe he made 2 last ditch tackles earlier in the game, plus he was tracking back and coming across the pitch.

The excuse players are away for international duty doesnt wash, we have been poor all season. The squad is bloated with too many players who are simply not good enough. Kessell is a prime example - watch his passing, its inconsistent and is likely to be anywhere from head height to round your ankles. Groom should have been on the pitch by that stage to steady the ship. Poor decision making by the coaches.

Dont really want to call for Mallinders head, but we are very much in danger of falling outside the top 6. King was clearly not the whole problem. If by some miracle we turn the season around then maybe with good recruitment we might get back to challenging for honours, otherwise a clearout is required starting at the top.
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big mac returns
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Cant disagree more with people having a pop a calls for the kids to play. Once again the only kids on the pitch were Collins n hutch, neither played poorly.

Agree fully with kessel criticism, he's a championship player.

But lets not get one thing wrong, the ref was a joke!
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flanker
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Having watched it on TV I don't think the ref got too much wrong and it didn't really affect the result.
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Onward
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Forgot its the refs fault from the list of excuses.
Not sure which is the best thread for this one but did anyone else hear on 5 Live when they were discussing how poor SA are these days that there are around 50 players looking to come to Europe to play. Might be something interesting there if Sarries dont sign all the best ones!
Edited by Onward, Nov 27 2016, 02:21 PM.
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happyclapper
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We were the awful.
The ref missed a lot.
But, we are missing 13 players to international and a load more through injury and suspension. Other than our props, 10 and 15, we didn't have a first choice player on the pitch.
And as I've said before, it worries me that Waller is our first choice prop.

Let's see how we go when we get all our players back.
I'm not saying it will change anything, as I doubt it will, but let's reserve judgement.
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Onward
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Agree with HC about Waller. Loyal club player not up to the level we need if we are ambitious.
Cant recall the exact figures from tv 'highlights' but we missed about three times as many tackles as Falcons. Metres made was an embarrasing us as about 180 with Falcons over 400.
Yes we were missing some key players but we supposedly have a deep squad these days, and we were at home and not playing one of the top teams.
Tigers fans can't wait. Lets hope they are over confident, and if fora change we can actually turn up from the start then.....?
Head and heart again
Edited by Onward, Nov 28 2016, 09:57 AM.
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big mac returns
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not sure there is much to fault with a waller from friday, thought he did quite well v wilson. and how much that performance is due to him in my eyes is zero.


Issues i do have:

Luther ran one hard fast line against the grain the whole game, if hes not prepared to get double figures with hard carries then he simply cant play, hes also a revolving door in defence, need young harry back, at least he'll improve in defence not get worse.

failure to see whats in front of us, falcons back three were a shambles, they didnt cover at all well, the kick through was on all day for territory, theyre a bad side, you kick for touch you climb into their lineout, pile on the pressure and wait for them to buckle with lets face it a poor ten, how he got motm i dont know, we simply didnt do this enough, we need to start finding weak spots then going at that like a rebid dog. we were too happy to pass the ball aimlessly along the line, with no shape, no one cutting back, simply allowing falcons to drift and press ultimately leaving us down at the breakdown and losing the ball.

that leads me onto the next issue, clearly we need an attack coach, when we were a good team, we are not anymore, we had structure and shape in attack, i remember the likes of salisi and denman finding themselves with the ball and having the knowledge to play it out the back cause of the shape of our attack, now its simply too flat and off the cuff, you cant blame the ten for no shape outside him. we need to find a coach an it needs to be yesterday.

can't expect to win rugby matches with Kessel at 9, scrum half is one of the most important positions on the pitch, yet we have an ageing championship journeyman there. his delivery is shocking, all over the place. his decision making is poor, he cost us the game. we went into that game with a poor nine and no 8, how were we ever going to win it!

i think we have been unlucky no doubt that the time we unexpectedly get two back row players called up for england we also lose clark and dickinson (heaven above) i definitely felt we lacked pace at the breakdown and work rate across the pitch, we got beaten at the breakdown far too much.
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Onward
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Shouldnt speak for HC but maybe its over a longer period than just last Friday, and is doing quite well good enough?
Sure he is not the only issue. I think we are all agreed on one thing.......... its a serious coaching deficit that has left us with a clueless attack. Wonder if that word ever appears on the team whiteboard?... attack I mean, not clueless
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happyclapper
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You're correct Onward.
Not blaming Waller, just pointing out we only had 4 first choice players on the pitch and the fact he is one of them is worrying. We need a world class, or at least international standard loosehead. Tom Smith, Tiny, Corbs and now Waller, who is not even 5th choice for England. Great club player, would not want to lose him, but we need someone of pure class starting alongside our other class front row. I'd hoped Campese was it, but he never seems to get the nod to start.

Re the other stuff.
Agree re 9, Kessell is not up to it and too old to be seen as a development player. He is a bit more lively but his pass is not up to scratch. It's the same as all positions, do the basics well, the rest is a bonus. I do think Groom and Dicko are good enough and fit our game plan. Our backup 9 to them should be a young kid.

Luther was at 13, not really his job to cut the angle this week. But it should have happened more than once regardless, especially the one time he did do it, we made yards. And we definitely should have exposed their back three more.
It's a simple game and we're making it look very hard. We should have played 10 man (well 9 man in the second half) rugby and beaten Falcons into the dirt.

We've been very unlucky in the backrow. Nuff said on that.

Re attack, we're are clueless. Way too deep. Myler not attacking the line and simply shifting it on. All points to a complete lack of confidence. All of this is coaching. Get Myler flatter, taking the ball at pace. Will encourage him to run more naturally, and the pass will be more aggressive. We know Myler has a great pass, let's use it.
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chesty
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I have had time to think about Friday and read comments. talk of players being away is good apart from didn't the Argentinian look good on the wing whose he play for wouldn't leave him in the res would you,Unless you are loyal to a fault.
Perhaps that is our problem not many of the players are as good as we think,Newcastle were apoor team but there wingers still got ball,gonava walked through Collin a few times young centre got pushed out of the way to easily, pick a player when watching then you see his faults. I Like both those players but have to be realistic.Didnt mind the interception at least we tried something, one mistake doesn't cost you a match 80 mins does, even Fodens poor tackle shoudnt have been the decider.
Jim needs to fill me with some hope at least cockers would have said it was rubbish and unacceptable,Jim said we were better second half I pay for 80 mins I shout for 80 mins the first half lacked any intelligence or effort the second half was better not good.
Thank heavens for Bristol.
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