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Saints playing for England
Topic Started: Nov 27 2016, 01:58 PM (292 Views)
ElmaFudd
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Have to say I really enjoyed the England vs Argentina match yesterday it was a great contest made more interesting by the early Red card which meant England played under more pressure than the would have done. I thought Courtney and Woody in particular had very good matches and with my one eye I would have given the MOTM to either over Robshaw. Both put in a real shift in defence. I did nearly throw something at the TV just before halftime when Barnes was constantly picking fault with Harrison. We all know Billy V is in a different class right now and asking T to come on at 8 against a big pack and fill in for Billy was a tough ask on anyone and I thought overall he did pretty well. Whatever you may think of Dylan personally there is no doubt he is a great captain was for or and appears to be doing a great job for England as well. The perfomances from these 4 guys reminded me that while we are in a bad place as a club at the moment we do have players capable of playing good rugby. Estelles on the wing for Argentina I thought looked to have some real pace about him and did well in the buildup to their 2nd try. Lets hope these boys can brings something back with them when the do return from international duties that helps lift the team.
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big mac returns
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Agree, thought our boys were tremendous.

No way do wood or Dylan accept that performance on Friday.

Agree with comments re Barnes, he's a terrible commentator, completely out of touch with the game.
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Bedford Saint
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Agreed, all the Saints boys put in a real shift. Especially pleased for Woody as I thought his England days had gone. T came on and played well, not brilliantly but well. Made/was involved in a number of turnovers. Really disappointed that he only scored 5 in most of the national papers - which makes you wonder how much these guys really know.

Barnes gets on my nerves about as much as Jonathan Davies.

Hopefully Jones will release all 4 of the England boys back to Saints ahead of the Tigers game. I can dream !!!
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Ossie Reborn
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I get the impression that most of the press would prefer Jamie George at hooker and are only putting up with Dylan as long as England are winning. The Observer and Sunday Telegraph both marked him as the weak point of the team. The anti Saints bias in the press is further underscored when Cleary, James, Greenwood and even that staunch closet Saintsman Austin Healey make it very clear how good this England team will be when Itoje, Launchberry, Haskell etc return to replace current players. Unnamed but you know it's Wood and Lawes they have in their gunsights. It was always thus with the press but at least we have a coach prepared to stick with his players.
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ElmaFudd
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Question. How much more would Itoji have brought over Lawes yesterday? I don't think much if I'm honest
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happyclapper
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Itoje is class. He'll start as soon as he's fit.
The other three are fighting of the other spot, it's a great place to be.

Not sure about a Saints bias, but Haskell is first choice so clearly is seen as adding more.
Any one saying George should play over Hartley has no idea what they're talking about though.

For years I've said Hartley IS Northampton Saints. Now Hartley IS England.
From putting an arm round Daly as he got his red, to the rocket he put up the players as he came off, he is absolute class and the best first phase hooker in the country.
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big mac returns
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personally i think i'd play itoje at 6 for england, and potencially for the lions. for england lawes launchbury itoje in same team sounds very strong

hartley is pure class, still not at his best but offers so much.


im under the impression that theres only aus v eng next week, so does that mean north, pisi, pisi n king louis are back?
Edited by big mac returns, Nov 27 2016, 09:15 PM.
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ElmaFudd
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Hc i'm not questioning if Itoji is class anyone with half an eye can see that. I was just wondering what he would bring over Courts based on his performance this weekend for me not much more. I don't think you could have asked much more. He took his lineouts carried hard made turnovers and tackled like a demon. A pretty comprehensive porformance.
Edited by ElmaFudd, Nov 28 2016, 08:54 AM.
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happyclapper
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Yes. Courtney was very good and you could argue the best player on the pitch. It was definitely between him, Woody and Robshaw.
It's one of those what-if scenarios and you'll never know.
Itoje tends to win more turnovers, Courtney makes more tackles.
They both hit everything that moves and they both win a lot of lineout.

Personally, I don't think Itoje at 6 is as strong as Robshaw at 6, the man has been awesome under Eddie.
I'd pick Itoje and one of Kruis, Lawes, Launchbury - they're all awesome and we'd have a great bench too.
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big mac returns
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Am i right in think courtney made more tackles then robshaw at the weekend and normally launchbury makes more then anyone, he doesnt win as many turn overs as itoje, hes not a great lineout option. doesnt carry as well as either. for me itoje lawes and launchbury are just better players and if u can have all three in the team i dont see why you wouldn't.
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Wibble
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Thank god i am going to watch England next week. Might be my only chance of seeing a Win this side of Christmas.
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happyclapper
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Mac, in one sentence you talk about this weekend's game and then about players in general. So yes Courtney made more tackles that Robshaw this weekend, and he also made a lot more than Kruis. In fact Lawes was more than Robshaw and Launchbury against SA and Launchbury was more against Fiji.

I can't find stats re turnovers won, but Robshaw hardly ever concedes a turnover or gives away a penalty.
He also adds a lot of unseen work, makes a nuisance of himself at the breakdown and does a lot of link work. He was always the first man on the shoulder at each break we did.

I think Robshaw is playing extremely well. Not MOTM well but definitely deserves his place. I'd keep Itoje where he is best, in the second row.

Having said all of that... You pick a balanced team. So if Haskell comes back in at 7, then we lose Wood as a lineout option, so Robshaw will be used then or Eddie may decide to go with Itoje at 6 for the extra option as he is better in the lineout. It's all about balance.

It's a great problem to have. But for me, I'd stick with the back-row as it until we unearth a proper 7.
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big mac returns
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Wibble
Nov 28 2016, 12:53 PM
Thank god i am going to watch England next week. Might be my only chance of seeing a Win this side of Christmas.
I'll be there as well, but supporting aussies, i dont think i'll see a winning side for a while...........
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ElmaFudd
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Go to Tigers...... oh hang on.
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Bernie15
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ElmaFudd
Nov 27 2016, 06:36 PM
Question. How much more would Itoji have brought over Lawes yesterday? I don't think much if I'm honest
If anything at all in my view.
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Ossie Reborn
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/11/15/englands-strength-in-depth-the-first-second-and-third-choice-xvs/b-vunipola-hughes-and-beaumont/
Here's a rather interesting story. England XV with second and third choices in each position. Only Dylan is first choice. Tom & Courtney seconds and Paul Hill 3rd.

That's only 4 players out of 45. It's difficult to argue with the choices made.

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happyclapper
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I can argue quite a lot of this. It wouldn't get many, if any, more Saints players in but I think it's lazy journalism and shows a lack of understanding.

15 - Mike Haley? Um.... not even been in the squad. I would guess we'd see Watson or someone else at 15 over him.
14 - I would say Yarde is ahead of Roko but they are the three contenders.
13 - Marchant? Not featured in the squad. I'd argue several players over him, including Tuilagi at 13, where he's played most of his rugby.
12 - This one is probably correct but given Eddie's preference for ball players I'd say Slade is a contender at 12. In fact the 10s and 12s will have lots of crossover.
11 - Chris Ashton of the going to France Chris Ashtons? Um, not even allowed to be selected so no.
10 - Eddie has said Cips is not in contention unless he's number one. I'd say we need injuries to Ford, Farrell and Slade before Cips is even considered. In fact, if Ford is injured I'd predict Farrell 10 and Slade 12.
9 - Dan Robson has no caps. He's in the squad but I'm not sure he'd get in ahead of more seasoned players.
1 - Can't argue but watch out for Ellis Genge.
2 - Can't argue.
3 - Brooks or Hill? Either or... Maybe both as I'm not convinced on Sinckler.
4 / 5 - I think there are 5 players fighting for the 2 shirts and there's just a pecking order and picking the best combinations. Not sure Williams is the 6th in that list if I was naming a 6th.
6 - Wood has played 7 not 6. Again, as per 2nd rows I think there is a pool of players and it's about combinations. We could see Wood at 6, as we could see Haskell there as well. Ewers is quite up to his best yet so not sure he's in contention.
7 - No Harrison even though he's the player in the squad at the moment? Interesting... Not sure what Jones has done to merit being in there.
8 - I am pretty certain Beaumont will get caps but Eddie has said he sees him as a second row and while he's playing 8 he's unlikely to get selected. Much more likely to see Morgan there.
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popsandpa
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It has become more and more obvious 0v34 these long, long wekks that Dylan is Northampton Saints, but I think now we all know he is England rugby! Its all about Heart, Pride and Passion, Dylan has it in bucket loads! We all know he has not always channeled it in the most correct way - but those times are gone. We need the team to be a team, work for each other and THE SAINTS! How proud is our history - we need more Dylans, but however good our current Captain is, we need Dylan back 'cause at present I'm not sure some of the players know who they are playing for.
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happyclapper
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I've said exactly the same before Pops, completely agree with you!!!
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Wibble
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We need our leaders back for sure. We always miss Dylan. We miss wood too. Who are our leaders when they are away? We need more for sure.
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happyclapper
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I'm never sure of a captain in the backs.
I like Foden, but that game needed someone to grab it by the scruff of the neck, and it's hard to do that from FB. He's a leader of the squad and a senior player yes, but not really on the pitch.
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ElmaFudd
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I've always liked Foden but I don't think he us a leader and as pointed out the backs need a leader.

It will be great to get the England lads back but I don't expect that to change too much. Our forwards have been perfoming pretty well in terms of set piece etc but really do need to be hiiting the breakdown faster and harder and I'm not sure that the return guys bring that. But our problems really are in the backs attacking play and none of the guys coming back can help too much there. What they can and hopefully will bring is a winning mentality back which we are going to need if we are to threaten Leinster at all.
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Wibble
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Not sure we have had a strong leader in the backs since Bruce left.

you would think it should be either Myler or Foden on paper due to experience but neither seem to rally the troops or lead from the front. I know its a bit old fashioned but we need someone who will drag these boys over the line and keep them running hard and hitting the line time after time. Unfortunately we dont have one of those. Plenty of good players but i dont think any can be classed as great at the moment.

Ahh well, at least England are still looking good. If we keep this up we could have a great 6nations.
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happyclapper
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Great 6 Nations and potentially world record run of wins....
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