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George North
Topic Started: Dec 5 2016, 08:46 AM (693 Views)
ElmaFudd
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Well looks like this one is going to run and run. I hope that player welfare is paramount to Saints and I don't believe that they would risk his well-being by bringing him back on. However I was mightily suprised to see him come out for the 2nd half.

It now sounds like the independent assessors sre the give their findings on this incident lets hope there is nothing to answer to from a negligence viewpoint.
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Wibble
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I doubt Saints would take any risks. We have looked after him pretty well so far.
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Onward
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Yep on BBC Sport news that the RFU are setting up an independent inquiry
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happyclapper
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George himself has said he laid still as he was worried about his neck.
What more do they need to do?!?!?!?!
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Wibble
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I suppose its possible that they dont believe him. I know historically players would pretend to be fine as they did not want to stop playing.

But they will have a very hard time proving that. Personally i think the RFU just want to prove they are doing something, even if its pointless.
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Onward
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Cant help thinking that the inquiry should be about the Leicester player only getting a yellow card after he made no attempt to ease North to the ground having taken North's legs away at shoulder height
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happyclapper
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It's all outcome based Onward.
They deemed that North landed on his side and therefore it's only a yellow card.
If it had been head/shoulder then it would have been red.

JP normally gets these things correct although I did think he was a bit harsh on Luther's yellow early on. But they have guidelines on all this now and they have to follow it to the letter, which I suppose he did. In years gone by he had latitude to say, it's the 2nd minute, let's calm players down and see how they get on.
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Bedford Saint
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Looking at the pictures on the TV, North did a very good impression of someone who was knocked out. As much as I would like to believe him I was staggered he re-appeared.

Aledgedly Saints dont have the greatest reputation for player welfare.
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happyclapper
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I was also quite shocked. But given the amount of time he's had off for concussion and what he's said about it, I doubt he'd put himself at risk.
Also, given how long he's had off, and how long Dylan had off with concussion, and the fact that Phil Pask is on the board, I find it hard to believe we have a bad rep for player welfare. Where did you hear this Bedford?
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flanker
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Idiotic tweet from Tom May below this forum. I've admired his play this autumn but he needs to keep his mouth shut.
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ElmaFudd
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Flanker, if you are mean the tweet referring to being hurt by paper. He was talking about a football coach who feigned serious injury after a paper plane hit him pitch side this weekend. No really he went down hard than North did.
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happyclapper
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LOL! Really?!?!?!
Football makes me laugh!
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Rushdensaint
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The tackle in question on George happened in front of where we were seated and his head did hit the ground rather hard but he did raise it straight after before laying still. In these days where the outcome is looked on as well as the actual tackle I thought that a red card was more appropriate as in the international the week previously. Instead of punishing the perpetrator it now seems we are to be punished for allowing him to return.
Smacks of double standards as with the Brooks incident against the Falcons.
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danjsaints
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I think the reason this is such a difficult issue is that we all want what's best for the players and it genuinely looked like North was knocked out. However, only the doctor who assessed him at the time is qualified to make a judgement. Comments by the likes of Monye suggesting North should not have returned are essentially questioning the integrity of a medical professional. If the tests are adequate, and North has passed them then regardless of how the incident looked to those watching, there is no reason GN should not return. The alternative readings are either A. the assessments are not fit for purpose, B. the doctor has deliberately allowed an injured player to return or C. the club disregarded the assessment and willingly sent a seriously injured player back onto the field. Worth considering the implications of such comments.
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Rushdensaint
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When George was knocked out by Nathan Hughes after scoring a try he was cleared of being reckless and allowed to play the following week but we lost George for the rest of the season, it does seem that they are sending the wrong message to players where Saints are concerned or am I too impartial.
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Onward
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HC, North says he landed on his neck, thats red card territory?
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Wibble
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You know... Having seen it again, it looks like a red. He moved into George to make sure of the contact. I dont care about the current "did he land on his head" nonsense. Was it a deliberate foul that could cause serious injury? RED.

As for George, we have to take his word for it.
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happyclapper
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His shoulder and side hit first, then he kind of rolls onto his neck if I remember correctly.
At the time I remember thinking it could go either way here. I think had it been a red then Tigs fans and cockers would be up in arms.
It's borderline at best but I can remember thinking on the day, first thought, red, on replay, maybe yellow.

Re whether he was sparko or not, only George and the medical staff know the answer.
Without calling into question the integrity of the medical staff who are at risk of being sacked and struck off if they are negligent, I'd say he was not sparko. And George himself takes his well being very seriously.
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Wibble
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Sains Speak

Well looks like Saints might also think that further evidence point to George being unconscious. I guess its fair to say that George would not want to lie to the medics but it is possible that either he is telling the truth and just stayed still or he was unaware of passing out due to suffering a head injury that can cause confusion.

Saints are doing the right thing as always, some people will always want to think the worst.

I do worry for George though. He seems susceptible to this type of injury and they are coming much more often.
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flanker
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ElmaFudd
Dec 6 2016, 08:46 AM
Flanker, if you are mean the tweet referring to being hurt by paper. He was talking about a football coach who feigned serious injury after a paper plane hit him pitch side this weekend. No really he went down hard than North did.
The statement that precedes that reference.
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happyclapper
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I think Saints are just covering their back.
They appreciate it looks bad on TV so are sending him for more tests.
That way when he plays on Friday night, they can say they went above and beyond.
And moronic commentators like Monye can have a whole lot of shut the .... up!

(NB - if he doesn't play due to injuries sustained during said incident, I reserve the right to eat my hat)
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ElmaFudd
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The revised statement issued by Saints does sound a lot like ar*e covering to me. I find it difficult to believe that the shots on tv were not available to the medical/coaching staff.

I don't want to sound like I'm having a go at Saints at every opportunity but boy are they making it easy for those that do.

Flanker, I think the tweet you're referring to is from some other Tom, not Tom May.

HC regarding the football yes it's true a paper plane bounced off his forhead and then a second after it hit hkm he went down like he'd been shot. Maybe demonstrating to his players how to simulate an injury.
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danjsaints
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Blimey it's all kicking off now: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38227807

It certainly looks like option A to me - i.e. the assessments aren't good enough. If he was knocked out and still passed the test, that's a major problem. However if it turns out that Saints did have the evidence and refused to use it, I am disgusted, and fully expect the book thrown at whoever is responsible.

Silver lining though I suppose, is that protocols will be looked at to determine why on earth a doctor can't see all the angles but plebs like me sat at home in my pants can. I'm glad to see progress slowly being made on this issue, I just wish George North didn't have to be the crash test dummy every time.
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happyclapper
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I'm going to stick with my positive outlook and say they're still covering their backs. If George says he was conscious and intentionally laid still because of his neck, I believe him. All the video prove is what he said, he laid still and had his eyes shut.
If a scan reveals damage then fair enough.
But if he passed the tests on the day, I imagine he will pass them again. So if a scan shows nothing, I am guessing we have to believe him.

Obviously, if it turns out something untoward has gone on then people need to be held accountable.
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ElmaFudd
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Daily Mail have reported that BT are 'incensed' by Northampton's claim that not all the camera angles were made available to the medics, BT claim that they provide all angles to the medical teams.

Sounding more and more like the medics/coaches cocked up or deliberately ignored the evidence. However, if the coaches/medics had seen the same footage and choose to ignore it then they are incredibly stupid as they would surely have realised the rest of the TV watching public would have been able to see the same thing.

If found guilty of anything what punishments would the club/ individuals potential face?
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Wibble
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Well it would be VERY serious for the medics. Then it would depend on what actually went on. If a medic made a mistake then thats one thing, if the DOR put pressure on the medics and George thats another.

Then the question is why dont we have independent Medics as a final check? Then there can never be any question of undue pressure.
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Onward
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All this focus on was the qualified doctor right or was an unqualified sitting in the stand tv commentator right gets away from the tackle. George doesnt help himself by lifting his knees so high that he is easily unbalanced in the air. That said there is a duty on the tackler to make sure that the player in the air lands safely. Did the Leicester winger do that? Clearly no.
Result: the player fouled spends weeks off and the offender rejoices that he has taken out a key opposition player at an important part of the season.
Cynical? you bet.
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Wibble
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I tend to agree with you. Its never the club and player who are penalised that get the most benefit from this type of decision. I think a point swap from one club to the other for any retrospective red is the solution. It might make players more careful.

I think a single point would be about fair.

Still thats a bit off topic :-) And it will never happen.

Oh and this results based nonsense needs to end. Just because you were lucky enough to not flip a player an extra degree or two should not change the fact you were recless. And on the flip side. If you colide through no fault of your own and try your best to bring a player safely to ground but fail it should not be a red. Refs should make decisions. Refckless jumping and tackling are the same thing.
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flanker
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Wibble
Dec 8 2016, 10:24 AM
Well it would be VERY serious for the medics. Then it would depend on what actually went on. If a medic made a mistake then thats one thing, if the DOR put pressure on the medics and George thats another.

Then the question is why dont we have independent Medics as a final check? Then there can never be any question of undue pressure.
Worth giving Jose Mourinho a ring for advice on how to handle medics? :blink:
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happyclapper
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Onward, in my opinion they got the decision right on the day.
Personally, I think the focus should be on was the right protocol followed, did George tell them he was never unconscious? Was he talking when the doctor arrived on scene? If so, and all of this is easily proved with a few quick interviews, then what are we wasting time on here. They can also do scans to check for damage and get the results of those quickly.
JP and the TMO will have their decisions reviewed by the assessors and fed back to the clubs.
George should either be told he is off for N weeks due to concucssion proven by a scan or he should be playing.
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