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Saints Vs Leinster - Friday 9 Dec - 19:45 - Franklin's Gardens
Topic Started: Dec 8 2016, 10:50 AM (783 Views)
Wibble
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So we are back to Europe. And things have not been all that good in the League so far so perhaps its a welcome distraction.

We are not looking too clever in our pool so far sitting bottom due to our lack of BPs but we are all level on 1 win each so things are not out of reach so far. If we are being hones with ourselves we need 6 points out of the next 2 games to get back in touch. Obviously i would like 8+ points but chances are, playing like we are at the moment we will do well to get 2.

Now i am not writing these games off, we always have a chance at home but our record at home this season is poor, our record in Europe is not great, our record Vs Leinster brings no confidence and lets be honest, our record on Friday nights is a bit awful too.

Still, things have to start picking up at some point so why not this week?

It seems to me that since we lost to Leinster in the Final we have not had a great run in the cup. Thats nothing to be ashamed of because its a hard competition against the best in Europe. But we have to start performing at this level again if we want to keep attracting the best players.

Team selection will be interesting this weekend. Its hard to bring back Internationals with such a short amount of time (thanks RFU) but we need some edge back so sorry Mikey, Dylan needs to start. We always play better with Dylan in the team, and he is Captain of an England team that is looking as good as we have seen in a decade. I also feel that Courtney should come in too. He is just such a menace in the lineout and maul defense. Woody should probably start too as you want your captain for the big games. Harrison will probably be on the bench as i think the backs may well be wood, Louis and Gibson (i would prefer T at 7 over either Wood or Gibson but i know Jim loves both these guys)

What we are going to do in the backs i dont know. Start Groom is the obvious pick. i want to see JJ start but second game back Vs such a tough team might be a good time to be at 12 with Myler at 10. Not the most creative but as our 12 options are all a bit broken its not all that bad. 13 will be Luther or G Pisi. Either is good for me as long as they run hard all day long. I doubt we will see north this week so it could be Jamie and Ken. Foden likely to be 15 but i want to see Collins this season.
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flanker
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Good points.
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ElmaFudd
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We could sneak a narrow win but lets be honest the chances of scoring 4 trys are pretty much non existent given our present attacking shortcomings.

I'm going more in hope of a little Christmas miracle rather than anything else. I'm going to remain optomistic of a narrow home win but no way can I see 5 points from this and fully expect my wife to have bragging rights again shes irish.

Ho-Ho-Ho

SAINTS TEAM TO PLAY LEINSTER
European Rugby Champions Cup
Franklin’s Gardens
Friday, December 9th, 2016
Kick off 7:45pm

15 Ben Foden
14 Ken Pisi
13 Luther Burrell
12 JJ Hanrahan
11 Jamie Elliott
10 Stephen Myler
9 Nic Groom
1 Alex Waller
2 Mikey Haywood
3 Paul Hill
4 Michael Paterson
5 Courtney Lawes
6 Jamie Gibson
7 Tom Wood (capt)
8 Louis Picamoles

16 Dylan Hartley
17 Ethan Waller
18 Gareth Denman
19 Api Ratuniyarawa
20 Teimana Harrison
21 Tom Kessell
22 George Pisi
23 Ahsee Tuala
About as good as we could hope. Woukd have started Dylan myself but otherwise...
Edited by ElmaFudd, Dec 8 2016, 01:56 PM.
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Wibble
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So i was not far off. I too would start Dylan. Whats the point of having him if he is not ready for this match? Sorry.. bit grumpy. Will cheer up tomorrow;-)
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Longers
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Wibble
Dec 8 2016, 03:05 PM
So i was not far off. I too would start Dylan. Whats the point of having him if he is not ready for this match? Sorry.. bit grumpy. Will cheer up tomorrow;-)
I am so deep into conspiracy mode now, that all I can think of is that he has said something out of order. Good enough to start for England but not Saints. Stupid. I also hold that view about Harrison too.

Hey ho. Allotment beckons.
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happyclapper
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I can understand T not starting as Gibson has played well and brings a very different game. Also T's impact off the bench will be a lot more than Gibson's and you need to think about the match day 23 not just the starting 15.

However... Not starting Dylan, the England captain, is just foolish in what is a must win game. Yes Mikey is a more than capable understudy but Dylan is by far the better player and he galvanises a team. If Dylan were to leave the club today, are we honestly saying we wouldn't be in the market for another hooker?!?!?!?
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chesty
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agree with longers at least with Dylan.Dont we have an Argentinian who looked good against England but cant get in our none scoring back line perhaps we have higher standards.
Or loyalty gone wrong.
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happyclapper
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Estelles is the chap.
And that's a very good question, where is he?!??!?!
By the looks of it, Argentina's last international was against England on 26/11.
And he's definitely still on our books: https://www.northamptonsaints.co.uk/rugby/profiles/profile/Juan-Pablo-Estelles

So where is he?!?!?!?!
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Wibble
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So I'm starting to feel a bit more excited for this. Probably because the team looks pretty good but i still think we will be lucky to get a win. I think i would take any kind of win but TBH i would like to see a decent performance even if we loose. I want to be entertained and that has not happened much this year.
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happyclapper
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Leinster: Kearney, A Byrne, Ringrose, Henshaw, Nacewa (capt), Carbery, L McGrath, J McGrath, Cronin, Furlong, Toner, Triggs, O'Brien, Van der Flier, Heaslip.

Replacements: Tracy, Healy, Bent, Ruddock, Conan, Gibson-Park, R Byrne, O'Loughlin.

Tidy centres and 15 but not sure about the rest of their backs. I'd like to think with a young 10 we can control the game. They have an exceptional back row, really great to see the two 8s against each other. I'd hope we edge it in the tight 5 though. If we can discover some form this could be a good game!!!
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big mac returns
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going to be a really tough game this, miracles required in the lead up to christmas!

i think this is a game where we are going to miss brooks, Hill is a tremendous rugby player, not a tremendous scrummager though.


my worry is ringrose and henshaw tearing us apart through the middle and furlong shreading us apart up front.


i think we just need to treat this a one off game against a top team

glad groom is back, not the biggest fan but hes far better the kessell.

COYS
Edited by big mac returns, Dec 9 2016, 03:21 PM.
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happyclapper
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10 man rugby. Play territory.
They have a young 10 so unless he is a tactical genius at a young age, let's pin them back in their half and put pressure on their lineout. Henshaw and Ringrose can't tear us apart in their own half! (hopefully)
This is definitely not the game for playing phases, it's the game for sticking the ball in the corners and making them play out.

We can do this!!!
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Wibble
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I have no problem kicking to the corners as long as we dont loose the ball in our static maul. Give it to Louis and let him move it.

Come on Saints
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happyclapper
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Maul until it's not moving then get it wide...
If we play the correct tactics I genuinely think we can win this!
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Hood56
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I'm sorry how is a player falling into a tackle by a Saint a red card.
I'm close to being done with this sport. How many ridiculous red cards are we going to get seriously?

Further more a tackle 2 mins later by a leister player that is high and nothing?!?! Are you bloody serious
Oh a yellow for an actual high tackle for our troubles.. Yet nothing for theirs..
Apparantly one rule book for one team, another for every other team
Oh a yellow for an actual high tackle for our troubles.. Yet nothing for theirs..
Apparantly one rule book for one team, another for every other team
Edited by Hood56, Dec 9 2016, 10:54 PM.
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big mac returns
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I agree the player fell into it. But Dylan has swung his arm. Frustrating both in the incident and the sport. Decided the game

Jj's ball was incredible for the try and I liked the link up with myler, alot more structure.

Wood was outstanding.

Hill cannot scrummage and its costing us

Nice season....finished by December.


P.s. Luther is garbage
Edited by big mac returns, Dec 9 2016, 11:09 PM.
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Hood56
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I agree entirely with a swinging arm, but should the player have not fell into the tackle nothing would have been said about it.

JJ needs to start at 10, simple as. Hopefully once mallinder returns that will happen.

Agree with wood, why on earth do they take him off?

I also agree with hill, but I personally think he offers more on and off the ball than Brookes. I would actually like to see him start more. Nothing like game time to improve a player.

Luther, shouldn't even be on the bench. He's so far from premiership class it's untrue.
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flanker
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It was a clear red. Swinging arm to the head. But Dylan should have started. He would be more frustrated when he got on. Also Wood shouldn't have been taken off. He was playing out of his skin and captain too. We were back in the game until the red card.
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Wibble
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We were competitive until the card for sure. It might have been a red but if so a couple of theres were yellows.

Oh and Luther was OK except when he was garbage.

We might have been right in it if Jamie had not got injured when he did. With one shoe and a limp he couldnt get that final pass.

Oh well we will probably see Dylan in the 6 nations.
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ElmaFudd
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I've avoided posting until I calmed down. There was no excuse for Dylan. Red all day long and twice on a weekend. I do agree that Leinster got away wuth a couple of high tackles, one because the tackler hurt himself in the process it seemed. This goes against what I said pre-match here but not starting him was the right decision. Don't know what is happening behind the scenes but he looks like someone who doesn't want to be at the club.

Foden looks like a man who is just there for his pay check as long as he's paid he'll do as little ad possible.

Luther may be garbage but at least he was fired up and in fairness to him made a couple of key tackles to keep Leinster out in the 1st half.

Tom Wood did the tackling of 3 players and was a shining light in the team. Courtney had a great game with some excellent carries. King Louis was strangley quiet.

I agree with Wibble, Jamie going off was a shame and I hope the lad is ok he looked pretty sharp but Ace did well in his place and brought some real physicality.

JJ's best game for Saints him and Harry would be interesting combo.

Nic Groom should be 1st choice every match.

Oh and West and Jim should go. Don't know what has changed or why but the club culture stinks looking from the outside.

Leinster were quality and worth their win. Next week will be a total humiliation.
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flanker
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Think I'd agree with all of that.
Anyone know what Wood said in his radio interview afterwards? I missed it. Sounds like some home truths were said.
Edited by flanker, Dec 10 2016, 10:28 AM.
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Saints2000
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Is now the time to write off chasing anything this season (except staying in the premiership) and give the youngsters bags of game time in preparation for the future.
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ElmaFudd
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What Woody said here reading between the lines it sounds like the teams moral is shot he says that the team were flat before the game but the thing is it's not just been the last game or even the last five games its been a season and a half of the team being "flat". It will change once the takings are really hit it appears that"s the only thing driving the board now but that won't happen until ST sales drop.

Saints2000 I agree in part but we need to drip feed the kids in not throw them in at the deep end. The senior players need to be there to guide their development. However some of the senior guys need to take a long hard look at themselves first.
Edited by ElmaFudd, Dec 10 2016, 12:22 PM.
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Bedford Saint
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There's an article in the Chron on Wood's post match interview.

The most telling thing for me is that he said the players were flat before the game. If you are not up for a game against Leinster then you dont deserve to play. We are either over training the players through the week or have lost the ability to motivate the players. Beaten before they took the pitch.

For the first time after a Saints game I felt totally dejected.

Malinders interview after the game didnt help my mood, time for new coaches - now, not at the end of the season.

I feared our season would go this way, the decline is dramatic and needs arresting before too much damage is done. The lack of leadership from the very top is startling and runs into all aspects of the club. Barwell needs to take charge or risk his legacy becoming an also ran.

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Onward
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Who didnt see this coming? For me its all down to poor recruiting over the last two years. Bring in some class players every season. It would have been easy when we were on top. Top teams create a dynasty by keeping on improving. Those class players coming in would keep the existing on their toes, bring in fresh ideas and energise the dressing room. We presently have too many players stale and coasting.
Was it Lawrence Dallaglio who reckoned that Dylan looks like he wants to be somewhere else? Who is our best No 2 now, Mikey?
Now we seem to be in rebuild stage from DOR to coaches to players. You cant throw it at the youngsters to solve.
Isnt this how Sale went when Jim was there? Premiership title one year, left the club a couple of years later with the club in disarray?
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chesty
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Woods interview on radio Northampton was great what respect I have for an honest appraisal.
Jims interview on tv I am sure he cares but I need to know,is he as lacklustre as the players.
We were lucky to be in the game at half time so sending off did not lose us the match,we had a purple patch after half time which flattered to deceive.
Front row was poor in the scrum,second row needed Courtney and the replacement Api second row from the start, king louy was not fit, scrum half was fair.Courtney our best jumper needed to be put up in front of Toner all game it would have hindered all there first half ball,thats bad planning.our line out was good.
Backs Myler had one of his better games hannahan was good Luther had a better game, back three garbage foden a defensive joke,hes lost pace and timing, sub improved us on the wing.
We deserve better.
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Ossie Reborn
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Tom Wood interview. Can't get the link quite right but go to BBC I Player, BBC Radio Northampton, todays schedule. Go back to this mornings Kevin Saddington show. It's at 2h 23. He starts to let rip but it's only the highlights. Appaerently it's getting a full replay on Monday's breakfast show. Word from someone who heard it last night says he'll either be sacked or our new director of rugby by the end of the weekend.
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ElmaFudd
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BBC link there you go Ossie.
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Saints2000
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Just listened to Tom Wood. There is obviously something seriously wrong behind the scenes. Lets hope a solution is found soon.

On the bright side, Tigers just got a thumping from Munster.
Edited by Saints2000, Dec 10 2016, 06:27 PM.
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happyclapper
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There were glimpses of good stuff as Woody says. But on the whole we were rubbish!
Some good performances as has been said and strange KL was very quiet.

Re the red, frustrating that by the letter of the law it was red but a couple of years ago the refs were empowered to react as they thought best and in this instance I think he would have given a penalty and told him to calm down. The problem is, that lead to inconsistencies. However, I think it's now gone too far.
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