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Saints Vs Leinster - Friday 9 Dec - 19:45 - Franklin's Gardens
Topic Started: Dec 8 2016, 10:50 AM (784 Views)
big mac returns
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happyclapper
Dec 12 2016, 01:14 AM


Re the red, frustrating that by the letter of the law it was red but a couple of years ago the refs were empowered to react as they thought best and in this instance I think he would have given a penalty and told him to calm down. The problem is, that lead to inconsistencies. However, I think it's now gone too far.
I agree here, as Dai Young said in the interview below we have to decide if we are going to leave contact in the game cause as it stands its becoming a Joke! It seems that any attempt to hurt the opposition player is now a red, I'm sorry but that is part of the game! I agree that no one should be dropped on their head/neck, and legitimate and intentional high shots shouldn't be allowed, but other then that its fair game. what brookes did to deserve a red was good old fashioned u hit my guy im hitting you, good to see. Hartley clearly went for to put a big hit on the leinster player but as hes done that hes fallen down and hartley caughts his head, just as accidental as pisi's for me. What do we want to see, hartley not looking to put in big hits? at the end of the day rugby is an aggressive contact sport, however its seems the law makers would rather we play touch rugby! nothing wrong with touch rugby i play a non contact version every week, as i cant play contact anymore, and its good fun but its not rugby!!!!

I've listened Alex corbisieros podcast for NBC (if you want to give up on rugby listen to the john fisher episode, the players simply dont care) and he is not happy that, reading slightly between the lines, that his knees are now gone and he'll have to live with that for the rest of his life, which is fair enough, but you can not police contact out of the game, then we are simply watching a product and not what rugby is supposed to be. this weekend has become a joke, it seems that refs get a thing theyve been told and simply show no common sense anymore. for me the standard of reffing is terrible, and in a sport where the ref basically dictates the game this is a concern.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38286626


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Longers
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big mac returns
Dec 12 2016, 10:49 AM
happyclapper
Dec 12 2016, 01:14 AM


.......

I've listened Alex corbisieros podcast for NBC (if you want to give up on rugby listen to the john fisher episode, the players simply dont care) ....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38286626


Have you got a link for that - just lazy not searching!!
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big mac returns
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https://audioboom.com/channel/the-scrum-down

or find on iturnes
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happyclapper
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Completely agree Mac.
I also think that the ref saw his opportunity to make a name for himself. Walking around asking "Who is black 16?" Seriously? You can't remember what number the England captain is wearing? Coupled with the fact that the hooker always wears 16 on the bench!!! What a complete tool!
IIRC, the ref made the decision and the TMO said, "if that is your decision go ahead". Or something similar.
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big mac returns
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its not very good imo, lacks production value. he needs a better more polished presenter as a partner.
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flanker
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Seeing it on BT it was a clear red to me and all the commentators. It was an out control violent swing directly to the head. That could cause serious damage.
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danjsaints
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flanker
Dec 12 2016, 04:51 PM
Seeing it on BT it was a clear red to me and all the commentators. It was an out control violent swing directly to the head. That could cause serious damage.
Same here. I can see the "rugby's gone soft argument" applying to some of the incidents this season where accidents have happened and/or players have ducked into tackles, but this was a definite swinging arm. I don't think DH meant any harm by it, but equally it wasn't a legitimate tackle by any means. Haven't seen the Kurtley Beale incident (so may be wrong) but understand he just got unlucky as the ball carrier ducked, and if he hadn't the tackle would have been perfectly fine. In incidents such as that I understand the complaints about over zealous officials. However DH's looked illegal regardless of the player going down from what I've seen.
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ElmaFudd
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Theres a difference between going for a hard tackle and a swinging arm. I don't think for a second it was a premeditated attempt to take the player out but a swinging arm has been a carding offence for a long time long enough for a player of Hartleys experience.to know the likely result. Sorry in this instance its a red card. If they guy hadn' t have fell into it it may have been downgraded to a yellow but it was still reckless.and unnecessary. Imo I think it was pure frustration from Dylan coming from the fact we got drilled in the previous two scrums.

I've backed Dylan in the past and do believe he's been harshly dealt with. I have no axe to grind I just think he was very stupid on this occasion especially with his reputation.
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big mac returns
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I'm sorry but if u swing an arm into a tackle at waist level its not a card
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ElmaFudd
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True but i don't believe the tackle would have been at waist level. Admittedly I haven't studied the replay so assuming you have I'll conceed that. Eitber way it was still poor technique and stupid. straight arm runs the risk of a card.
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flanker
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big mac returns
Dec 12 2016, 06:13 PM
I'm sorry but if u swing an arm into a tackle at waist level its not a card
I don't think it was waist level but much higher. Do you think his frustration was increased by being on the bench and not starting? Heywood has been excellent but like the BT commentators, Hartley coming back off a string of England wins could give the leadership and confidence to the team to get us out the doldrums. All went pear-shaped unfortunately.
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ElmaFudd
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I think it may have been Flanker.
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It was definitely a factor, he probably wanted to make an impact. It wouldn't have been waist that was just an exaggeration to emphasise a swinging arm isn't a straight card. I reckon he was going for the body, not a high shot, and he fell into it
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flanker
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So Jim made a poor misjudgement then. Given what Dylan 's achieved this autumn why would you not want him leading the side out from the start?
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happyclapper
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Really good article by Stuart Barnes in The Times today, which pains me to say as Barnes is normally a nause:
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/sport/no-chance-jones-will-axe-his-captain-6vp508b66

I've been told there are photos showing the height Hartley was at as he initiated the "tackle" and it was definitely below shoulder level until the player started to go down and a picture as the player goes down. Apparently this clearly shows there was no intent to hit high and that it was a swinging arm to the body, which is just a big hit, is it not?
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Wibble
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There is a fine line between swinging your arm and wrapping your arms. If his arm would have not been moving forwards that would be a penalty too.

To me it looked like he went in hard for the tackle and the man dropped on him due to another tackler.

Unfortunate.

In these outcome driven days you can get in trouble for what you dont do as much as what you do. Its almost like someone is betting on red cards at the moment. We have seen so many this season.
Oh and that bit was a joke ;-)
Edited by Wibble, Dec 13 2016, 08:16 AM.
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ElmaFudd
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Photos like slow motion don't tell the whole story HC. Ah well the point is moot now anyway history will remeber it as a stupid act which in all probabilty will cost Hartley personally a damn site more than the Saints. Lets wait and see what the hearing tonight brings but I'll bet it will be a top end ban given his previous history.

Oh and Wibble I think the prem ref have a sweep stake going on which team gets the most reds (J.P has saints) 😁😁😁
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happyclapper
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I know they don' tell the whole story.

I am slightly biased as I am a huge Hartley fan. I thought on the day letter of law red, but I'd not be surprised if the ref had said, "it's a swinging arm but the player fell into it, yellow" or if he'd have said, "black 16 has gone in hard and unfortunately the player has fallen into the challenge, penalty against black". In other words I think all outcomes were a possibility here. As soon as the ref went into "Who is black 16" mode, I immediately and cynically suspected he was out for his moment in the sun.

I appear to have gone off point here... My point being, I think they need to look at all evidence and photos, as well as the slow-mo and real-time will give an indication about intent. The fact that Harltey is lower than head height in a still and the player falls into it, may help.

Although realistically, I am expecting to get nothing out of this hearing, Hartley to get a long ban and be playing in France next season.
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big mac returns
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happyclapper
Dec 12 2016, 11:56 PM
Really good article by Stuart Barnes in The Times today, which pains me to say as Barnes is normally a nause:
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/sport/no-chance-jones-will-axe-his-captain-6vp508b66

I've been told there are photos showing the height Hartley was at as he initiated the "tackle" and it was definitely below shoulder level until the player started to go down and a picture as the player goes down. Apparently this clearly shows there was no intent to hit high and that it was a swinging arm to the body, which is just a big hit, is it not?
The sooner Barnes disappears from our tv and papers the better, has no understanding of the modern game.

for me thats exactly how it happened he went to swing his arm into obrien's midrif, which is not against the laws, and due to him falling connected with the head, its just unfortunate. however with hartleys history and the disgraceful current crop of law makers and disciplinary committees i suspect he'll get a fair few weeks, he'll be back for 6 nations though..........
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Longers
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Dec 12 2016, 01:16 PM
Thanks Mac - good listen all through.
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