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| What is wrong at the Saints? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 10 2016, 07:51 PM (1,073 Views) | |
| flanker | Dec 10 2016, 07:51 PM Post #1 |
Senior Player
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As this is so important how about we have it in its own thread? It seems to me there could be several factors: 1. There is division and discontent in the team /club and in football parlance 'Jim has lost the changing room'. 2. Why did King leave hastily under a cloud? 3. The side isn't good enough. They have moments of excellence but don't play well enough consistently. The backs have been dire for 18 months and forwards are now following. 4. Myler isn't good enough to direct the team in a key role. He kicks goals like clockwork but his general play isn't good enough. Commentators say week in week out that he stands too deep. He should have seen the glaring opportunity in front of him on Friday for the chip through the middle but didn't. 5. We have too many expensive players on long-term contracts past their sell-by date. Several may know they are out at the end of this season and concerns over their future affect current performance. 6. Harry M made a big difference on his own and he has been out injured. 7. We don't come out well following the North incident. If the coaches jeopardised player welfare that could have alienated the team further. 8. Several players across the team have underperformed and can't be 'arsed' to put the effort in. Some put in 100%+ every week but some don't. Wood says they were flat in the Leinster warm-up. Wood plays out of his skin as do Heywood and the younger players but I don't know about everyone. Whatever the explanation the position is serious. Season ticket sales will take a big hit. We need a major clear out at the end of the season and a new couching team needs to rebuild. |
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| ElmaFudd | Dec 10 2016, 09:27 PM Post #2 |
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I'll think about this and get back to you when I have some answers. The only thing I think you can safely say at the moment is the club is in denial and needs to face up to the harsh truth that we are underperforming. We don't have a god given right to win we need to earn the wins and when they club wake up to the fact that if we aren't successful on the pitch we won't be successful as a business we might see a change until then all we as supporters can do is keep the faith. Edited by ElmaFudd, Dec 11 2016, 10:20 AM.
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| danjsaints | Dec 10 2016, 10:01 PM Post #3 |
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I was waiting to post because I figured I would let emotion get the best of me in the wake of the match and thought a clearer head might change my mind. However, I'm now of the opinion that the coaches must go. I have no idea who should replace them, so of course that bears considering, but right now, it would take a hell of a lot to convince me that we can be successful with the current set up. Happy to be proven wrong of course, but if I saw on Monday that we'd had a clear out I currently wouldn't be disappointed. Not entirely the coaches' fault of course - Too many players who are "just okay", who play well enough to get looked at positively by us but realistically wouldn't get in many teams in the top 4. I was relatively young when we got relegated before, so my memories of previous success are hazy, but going from champions and Euro finalists to this shambles in such a short space of time is the most I have ever been disappointed in the club. |
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| Onward | Dec 11 2016, 11:13 AM Post #4 |
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Brilliant summary by Flanker. Recruitment with one or two exceptions has been dire or non existant. Why have we recruited two backs recently, one good enough to play for Argentina but seemingly not good enough for our first team. And the learning our patterns stuff holds no water as we dont seem to have a pattern. If they were selected for the Barbarians they would fit in at a moments notice. I like Jim a lot but opportunities to improve have come and gone. Who takes over? dont know, what a shame Wayne Smith (unfinished business here) probably has eyes on the Blacks job. We missed Lam. I dont want any of the merry-go-round people like Ryan; Robinson. All I do know is that the DOR and coaching team needs to be sorted NOW so that a clear out and fresh recruitment happens before the start of next season and not waste next season as well. Even more to stop the leaking of any quality that we wish to hold on to and before they walk out of this tired dressing room. PLEASE. |
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| big mac returns | Dec 11 2016, 01:01 PM Post #5 |
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For me out glaring issue is we don't score try's, the reason we don't score try's is cause we have no structure or pattern in our attacking play. We need a world class attack coach. I don't understand why this has disappeared since we won the league. Last man I want is Wayne smith, he ripped the academy down its taken years to rebuild. Issue is myler is a tremendous ten to operate the forwards but hasn't nessercerily got the running game. For me the balance of him and jj was one of the good things from the last game, jj's ball for aces try was probably best thing we've seen saints do all season. However whilst he does that Luther throws a ball to nobody in touch attempting to do something he's not capable off. I see no point going with a good team next week. The games u have to win u need smyler, id be tempted to go jj hutch pisi which will bring a flatter more aggressive attack, maybe try myler at 15. Id rest a few forwards, give wood Lawes Waller the week off, Waller has been superb of late for me, if Brookes played v Leinster I think wed have had the edge. Hill is a great rugby player but has huge faults in his scrummaging, he extends his body to much cause he doesn't have the bulk up top. I like ace on the wing, not convinced of him defensively at 15 though. He was quite bright when he came on, I thought Elliot was aswell before he went off. |
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| ElmaFudd | Dec 11 2016, 01:10 PM Post #6 |
Senior Player
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Not sure if JJ will be fit Mac he limped off on Friday. |
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| happyclapper | Dec 12 2016, 01:56 AM Post #7 |
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First of all I think the coaches have achieved so much from when/where they took over they deserve the time to put this right. They identified that things went wrong last season and said they'd get them right this season. Some of those have been corrected but other haven't. We seem to have gone backwards / stood still while others have gone forwards which means we need fresh ideas. To me this means we need a new attack coach and very soon. If this gets us moving in the right direction this season, then let's see what happens next but if we don't turn things around and get top 6 then the coaches need to go. And by turn it around, I don't just mean results, it's performance. However, we also need to fix a lot of the stuff Woody identified - being flat and lack of discipline. This stuff is about culture and clearly something is wrong there. Again, if that's not fixed soon then the coaches/players need to go. To address Flankers points directly: 1. I agree there does seem to be a culture issue or divide. Woody made this clear. It needs to be addressed? 2. King left because he arrived with no real credentials, achieved nothing and was rightly booted out. The problem is, we had no one lined up. Why not? His replacement should have been announced within a week or two. And if they did have someone lined up and it fell through, tell the fans. 3. I think that we have the team and players to be good enough, but we're lacking in the culture and the coaching to achieve the players potential. With the exception of 1 and 10 we have internationals in every position. Who when playing well are very good. At the moment they are not playing well. How can Luther go from being a regular for England to poor club player in the space of a season when he should be in his prime and tearing up teams? 4. Myler IS good enough, it's the coaching that isn't. Again, he has gone from playing flat and having people like Barnes purring about his ability to being just a kicker. It has to be coaching. 5. We have rewarded players who have served us well. Now this may have lead to complacency but that is, again, a coaching issue. Foden and Brown are the same age. They've both had injuries but one has come back and slotted straight into the England team and the other is struggling. Why? Myler is our oldest back at 32, none of them are past their best age wise, so it must be coaching or culture again. 6. Harry is a great talent and needs game time as well as being managed correctly. 7. The outcome of the North inquiry hasn't happened yet. Let's wait until it has before we damn the club further. 8. Yes, I agree the culture and attitude does not seem right at the moment. I don't think it's a lack of effort or attitude I just think something is not quite right. Reading what I have typed it seems clear to me the problem is with the coaching. They have done a lot for the club and we're not going to get relegated so they deserve the rest of the season to fix it. but if we're not improving by Easter, then the board need to get a replacement team ready for the end of the season so the new coaches get a full pre-season to work. Or maybe appoint them at Easter so they can work on recruitment as well. |
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| Wibble | Dec 12 2016, 09:46 AM Post #8 |
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What i see as the main issues are we depowered the scrum to create a more mobile attacking set of forwards then tried to play the power game week in week out for over a season. We also let our backs stagnate. We win ball. We break through the defence but after that we cant follow it up. We dont have players backing up there team mates and when they do its always a bad pass or dropped catch. We need a good simple attacking plan the team can build arround. We also need to skills coaching. Just spend all week chucking a ball about. Oh and dont let Luther kick ;-) Early season we had a great defence but poor attack. So the attack coach went. Seems reasonable. Now we have no full time attack coach and we cant attack for toffee. Seems a simple answer. Get someone in for a few months and see what happens. Cant get much worse. We have suffered with injuries too but we have a deep squad. If they could just stop getting banned too we might get somewhere. |
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| Longers | Dec 12 2016, 10:00 AM Post #9 |
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Junior Academy
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Even before Saturday's embarrassment, I had written to Chris Wearmouth. I had noticed that a number of negative comments had been removed, without comment, from the post-Leicester game news feed by Jim. I have invited Chris to share my comments with both Tony Hewitt and Jim Mallinder, and I am currently awaiting his reply. Given that they probably had a rather difficult week last week, I am not concerned that I am yet to receive a reply, but I think by the end of this week, I should expect something. Or it may need a follow up - I do hope not. |
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| big mac returns | Dec 12 2016, 10:52 AM Post #10 |
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38283869 whatever is wrong, this could fix it! |
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| danjsaints | Dec 12 2016, 01:58 PM Post #11 |
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We can but dream Almost certainly wouldn't happen - why would he leave such a rich and successful club unless it was to be available for Wales, which he wouldn't be any more likely to be here. Still, stranger things have happened... |
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| ElmaFudd | Dec 12 2016, 05:12 PM Post #12 |
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One of my favorite players he really would be a good signing but I can't see it unless North has been singing our praises during the internationals. |
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| chesty | Dec 12 2016, 05:20 PM Post #13 |
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So it is the coaches fault for everything,obviously they have not taught foden to tackle or catch a high ball.That is just bad play so is catching and passing,these are fulltime players at a good club, not now a top club. It is not the coaches job to make the players put in the effort and not be flat,top players do it themselves or a good manager leaves them out of the team. Thinking about my season ticket next year,can put up with losing but not with poor effort and unattractive rugby Tigers are more entertaining. |
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| ElmaFudd | Dec 12 2016, 05:34 PM Post #14 |
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On that point Chesty, the coaches are surely responsible in no small part in motivating players and also some of this should be down to Woody. The team are clearly demotivated, 2 seasons ago Foden would have chased that ball down and made at least half a tackle on the last try. I agree the players need to accept some of the responsibility for basic errors but in any sport it is often more difficult to get the basics right when you are forcing them due to bad form or poor motivation. Burrell forcing a pass into touch was a clear example of that to me. It is a strange but true fact when things are not quite clicking thinking about getting them right makes it worse. The players do need to improve without question but if your basic patterns aren't there or aren't working then they will look lost and less skillful than when they are running plays that are working. |
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| big mac returns | Dec 12 2016, 06:21 PM Post #15 |
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I agree, its not the players job to set out an attacking shape, that is created on the training ground by the coaches. A coaches job is far more then picking a side and "coaching them how to catch" this isn't amateur rugby. Its about setting patterns of play, our defensive set up is strong, u can fault the boys effort defensively just look at that first half effort on our line v Leinster bar a few one man miss tackles such as Paterson fro fir first try we were superb until the red, however in attack we have nothing. Against Leinster it was far far better, issue was hill cannot scrumage so we got dominated there for virtually the whole game, the red (cant expect to beat a top side with 14) and the fact Leinster aren't a bad side. |
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| happyclapper | Dec 12 2016, 11:44 PM Post #16 |
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Completely disagree Chesty. If you want an example of how the coaches can influence a team and motivation, look at Bristol. I concede they are still to win a game but after Robinson was axed, they said the number one thing was to put the fun back into training and get the players wanting to play for the club again. I think this is evident in how Bristol are playing and the improvements in their performance. Saints look like a team running on empty both motivationally and inspirationally. The players will motivate themselves if the culture and atmosphere is right. At the moment, I get the impression it isn't. It's the same in all jobs. |
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| big mac returns | Dec 13 2016, 10:41 AM Post #17 |
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over ten years as head coach will always lead to stagnation, the question is how do u rejuvenate the side? this is why for me it would be good to see a new respected attack coach who comes in as a big figure and not just a patsy to jim and dorian, also an injection of some of the youngsters, make the big boys fight for their place, if they haven't got the spirit to fight for their place back then its time for them to move on. the only comparison that springs to mind of a coach being at a club for a significant period is unfortunately in football. Alex Ferguson, he rebuilt his united team time and time again. he brought youngsters though, he brought in old heads, he constantly changed his assistants. I think thats just shows its not always the man at the top that needs change. end of the day we should have one thing on our mind, Sale at home 23rd december. must win that no matter what. Edited by big mac returns, Dec 13 2016, 10:45 AM.
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| happyclapper | Dec 13 2016, 11:46 AM Post #18 |
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It must be the weather... I agree Mac. Nothing more to add! |
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| Wibble | Dec 13 2016, 12:09 PM Post #19 |
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Me too. I think IF we get the correct Attack coach in who is strong enough to get their voice heard then we could turn this around enough to save Jim and move us back in the right direction. But time is short for this to happen. Some of our problems are not Jims fault. ( I know, controversial ) Mostly i am thinking of the lack of game time for our youngsters. How many times have these players got their start and just as they were looking comfortable they have been injured? Now in previous years we have been slow to introduce these guys but i genuinely think Jim has been trying lately but Injuries keep cropping up time and again. JJ gets injured pre season causing us issues so we go with Harry, then he gets injured and we go with Hutch and Olver. Just as JJ gets fit he has a couple of games then off injured again (hopefully just a short one this time) . And then our forwards all seem to be looking to get a weekend off by either getting a ban or recurring injuries. Except Alex Waller (who although i think he has been over played has been at least available) have we had a player start 3 games in a row this year? |
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| Bedford Saint | Dec 13 2016, 01:46 PM Post #20 |
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JJ back to Munster ??? http://www.planetrugby.com/news/hanrahan-set-for-munster-homecoming/ |
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| big mac returns | Dec 13 2016, 02:00 PM Post #21 |
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its a shame, maybe playing him lately has been an attempt to get him to stay. be interesting to see who they can get. i have a fear it will be Ford. |
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| Wibble | Dec 13 2016, 02:12 PM Post #22 |
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JJ could have been a great player for us, but injury got in the way. That said, if he did become a start he would be back in Ireland anyway. I have not seen him do anything so far that Olver can not do. I would have liked to see more of both of them to find out though, plenty of time left this season. |
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| ElmaFudd | Dec 13 2016, 02:19 PM Post #23 |
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It wont be Ford Mac. |
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| happyclapper | Dec 13 2016, 02:21 PM Post #24 |
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I'm reckon this is contract stirring again! They have an established 10 in Tyler Bleyendaal and a backup. JJ would have stiff competition whereas at Saints, if we manage him correctly, surely he would be getting more game time for us than Munster. But if he does go, I do not want Ford. We'd need a front-line kicker if we got Ford as he cannot handle kicking under pressure. And he goes missing in games when he's put under a lot of pressure. No thank you... If JJ goes then I'd want us to sign a top 10 from somewhere. Either an established international somewhere or one of the these Kiwi 10s who just can't break into the AB side but is still class. |
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| chesty | Dec 14 2016, 06:24 PM Post #25 |
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got you all going,if you read my previous posts you would see I have no faith at the moment in the coaching team,just saying they are not to blame for everything as for motivation, I played rugby most of my life never got paid had some crap coaches,never was accused of lack of effort or motivation. Caracter that's missing.Where I stand we are watching rubbish, but we cheer and encourage, we pay, but enthusiasm dosnt waver and we are pretty motivated. man up. |
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| happyclapper | Dec 14 2016, 06:53 PM Post #26 |
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You've obviously never had a rubbish job then Chesty? At the end of the day, this is their job. If they have management that is not inspiring or motivating them, as in any job, it will reflect in performance, which for them is on the pitch. Evidence of this in the rugby world is the current England and Bath teams. More or less the same players but completely different performances. In hindsight and with reflection, bar a couple of players, I don't really agree with you anyway. Most of the players are putting in a huge shift every week, especially in the forwards. The backs just look clueless... |
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| chesty | Dec 15 2016, 08:45 PM Post #27 |
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Happyclapper you couldn't be more wrong about jobs, I had pride even when it was crap' in my performance.Pity our captain agrees with me, if we are so good in the forwards why do they give so many pens away go, backwards in the scrum and get banned a lot even without Dylan. Don't think until now I have criticized the forwards.I DONT LIKE EXCUSES. |
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| flanker | Dec 15 2016, 10:08 PM Post #28 |
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No need to write in capitals, we can hear you. I agree, the forwards seem to have got worse lately. Paul Hill doesn't seem a strong enough scrummager. |
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| happyclapper | Dec 16 2016, 01:35 AM Post #29 |
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Pride and doing your job is one thing. Going the extra mile is another. Not everyone is the same and is motivated by the same things. Personally I think the forwards are doing OK. The scrum has creaked a bit but we are one of the best in the league on our own ball. |
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| big mac returns | Dec 16 2016, 01:27 PM Post #30 |
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I personally think the players are motivated, our defence is very good,the pens and yellows are in most cases because they are trying too hard to impose themselves, ala brookes v falcons and waller v sarries. i also think they have ability. (apart from luther and Hill's scrumaging (thats why we go backwards in the scum very rarely do we when brookes plays also we also lack a little sheer bulk in the second row on occasion) for me it simply a structure issue. we have shown no decent attacking structure all season other then glimpses against leinster with jj at 12. the lose of Arry i think has made a huge impact. we based our attack around a ball playing 12 then dont have one. when we won the league we had a clear pattern, no matter who was in the line they got into the same shape, with the option to either deliver the flat ball or to play it out the back. we no longer do this. A coach has a huge impact on a sporting team, that is just reality. Its the coaches job to set the patterns of play in training, its not like they just pick 15 men and tell them to go play rugby, they dictate everything we try and achieve tactically and structurally. monotony of the same message is also a factor, its impossible to maintain a top level if all you are doing is repeating what u have done previously, u must constantly look to improve and evolve to maintain the top level. I think for us we have shown no development as a side and have in fact gone backwards in attack. which i reckon has alot to do with the drastic change in Luthers performances since we won the league. when we won it he ran hard fast straight lines (like downey did constantly) and a lot of our game is based on these power plays, it got us over the game line and get us momentum, however since then he has said team have "worked him out" they stick a back rower in the channel to try and prevent him getting over the game line, he therefore doesn't run the same lines anymore, he trys to go alot more on the out side or he passes the ball. this disrupts our attack completely, 1: it means that the forwards running our "around the corner" attack have to run further. thus they dont get there or they dont get there in the same volume, it becomes slow, we risk a turn over, and then there are no real further attacks to come from the first phase. the first carry is fundamental and luther just isnt doing it justice anymore 2: it kills the space, gives us less space to attack and makes it easier to defend. Its a very simply structure but extremely effective which is no surprise why the coaches like it, since we have lost this from luther we have developed a slightly different approach, more of a "heads up" game plan based on the abilities of say a mallinder (who when he plays 12 cause he makes the carries required allows us to play our traditional power play forward wrap but also has the skill set to play heads up as well) or a jj who loves to attack the line, he makes more carries then any ten ive ever seen. they dont give us the same forward impertus that a big carry from luther would but they do run the correct angles at the right areas of the pitch making the rest of the plan possible, its almost at is luther doesn't appreciate that his carry is the first punch in a 4/5 punch combo. for me having looked at luther now more at 13 he simply does not have the attacking nous we need, either he needs to making 12-15 hard straight carries a game making yards or he shouldnt be in the team. Smyler is sometime criticised for being too deep, however in a system where youre bringing in a big carry then a forward wrap thats how you would expect him to be, if we were looking do more off the 1st phase then he should probably be flatter but we have never played that way. |
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3:40 PM Jul 11