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Non Contact Sport; What is happening
Topic Started: Dec 13 2016, 04:18 PM (156 Views)
popsandpa
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Considering all the soft decisions referees make these days - not just for our club - do the powers that be realy, really want OUR GAME to be made into a non contact sport. Its not what rugby is and never should be, BUT the professional game is going down that road more and more. Did we lose it when we turned professional, or is it the world we live in? However, this is NOT THE RUGBY I was brought up wth. I know we are all more aware of the injury consequences these days - and we should be, but we still need to play the game we all love, when I was "little" these "incidents" would NEVER BE A RED CARD. We are becoming too soft for the TV. This is not how Rugby was born and developed - its a tough game, its respect, its a shake of hands at the end of the game, and a drink together (players and fans) at the end. WE CAN'T LET THIS GO - ITS TOO IMPORTANT - OR WE JUST TO BECOME LIKE ANY OTHER SPORT.
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happyclapper
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It really is a tough one and I'm not sure what the answer is.
You could probably trace it back to the game turning professional but the real cause is the TV companies and camera angles.
They mean that wrong decisions get picked up on and referees scrutinised and clubs get upset when they can prove a bad decision cost them the game. All this leads to the referees needing guidelines, removes judgement and taking into account game situation and ultimately lead to this "sanctions" era.

Prime example is Luther's yellow in 2nd minute. A few years ago it would be a penalty and he'd be told to calm down. But now they have "sanctions" if the referee doesn't punish per the sanction he is penalised in his post match review.

All very difficult and I really don't know what the answer is...
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flanker
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Player safety gets greater prominence too doesn't it.
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big mac returns
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very hard when the refs seem to have no idea.

it has become more and more that aggression is frowned upon in ordered to pander to new fans. this is a hard point, part of rugby is about accepting and incorporating all, however part of its is physical and contact challenge. end of the day what are we teaching kids if they dont learn to pick themselves up when they get hurt or that the laws will always protect them. i believe that there is a line, dropping someone on their head fair enough that is a serious issue again eye gouging is not acceptable, smashing someone in the face with a forearm............meh it'll be ok a week ban and a telling off. for the me the physical confrontation is a crucial part of the sport and to chastise someone for going slightly over the line is unacceptable.


end of the day the people making the decisions have no idea, and as far as i'm concerned have no right to make the decisions they are making, the game does not belong to the old men in suits.
flanker
Dec 13 2016, 05:50 PM
Player safety gets greater prominence too doesn't it.
player safety is one thing but it seems players have no requirement to protect themselves, how often is the issue with a player being tackled in the air due to the fact the player has thrown themselves into the contact with complete disregard for their own safety knowing that they will get a player binned.

too often players get high tackled, aren't hurt but immediately complain to the ref. the sport has lost its integrity no doubt
Edited by big mac returns, Dec 13 2016, 05:53 PM.
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happyclapper
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There's also the fact that players are bigger, stronger and coached better.
Gone are the days of tackling around the legs and falling backwards or driving forwards. It's man and ball, big hits.
So the laws need to change to accommodate it.
It's all very difficult!!!
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danjsaints
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Just had a lively debate with my partner about the Burleigh incident from the weekend. http://www.rugbydump.com/2016/12/5501/edinburghs-burleigh-sent-off-amid-pap-playacting-

If you haven't/can't watch it, Burleigh gives Pascal Papé an open hand slap to the mug, and PP responds by going down like he's been shot and clutching his face. Burleigh gets a red, PP gets ridiculed by the media but in the context of the game, nothing happened to him.

Now: By the letter of the law the red was a correct decision. A clear strike to the head, and with current directives, a definite red. The referee in his summation mentions the directives and says that with the rules as they are, he has no other option. Quite correct.
The problem is, this (well intentioned) directive gives absolutely no wiggle room. The TMO points out that contact was minimal, but this is irrelevant by the letter of the law. In days gone by, the ref would have told them both to calm down and shake hands, but can't do that any more. I honestly don't know how I feel about it. On the one hand, we just want consistency, and we have "laws" in rugby as opposed to rules because they are supposed to be factual statements of consequence in relation to action with no room for subjectivity. However, this leaves us questioning the evolving nature of the sport. Edinburgh should not have been a player down for such a measly offence.

I'm of the opinion that PP should absolutely have received punishment for his simulation - but as my partner pointed out, how would you know? If we want consistent objective criteria, what criteria do we need to determine absolutely that a player deliberately dived? A panel of experts can make reasonably consistent judgements time and time again, but this is after the fact, not during the run of play. Simulation is supposed to be against the laws, but sanctions and judgement criteria are unclear.

We also debated the fact that had he not hit the deck, Burleigh would probably have got a lesser punishment. From Stade Francais' perspective then, PP would have been foolish not to. This shouldn't be the case - a "strike to the head" is a red regardless, but it was still beneficial to simulate. How does one differentiate between that and the usual Scrum Half pleas to the ref about crooked scrummaging etc? If we extend this logically it means that the only behaviour that could count as simulation is when the opposition has genuinely done nothing that could be interpreted as illegal - this is A. unusual (anything can look dodgy if you make a big enough deal of it) and B. rules out unnecessary exaggeration which is still highly unsporting.

To conclude my rant: Anything that is a genuine attempt to keep players safe from serious injury is undeniably a good thing. Rugby is a physical sport but it should not be truly dangerous if all goes to plan. Rugby is constantly evolving and so we should see everything as a learning curve. At one stage recently, a bad landing was the only determinant of whether a mid-air collision was illegal, but World Rugby quickly realised that this was punishing legitimate contests excessively. Now intent and outcome are both considered. I hope we can work towards a middle ground where players can play with the intensity and physicality that we love about rugby without having to fear for their long-term health.
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happyclapper
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Well written Dan! One thing to pick you up on, is the only reason they're called laws is because they were drawn up by lawyers and so they called them that, instead of rules. There was, as far as I am aware, no reasoning behind it about subjectivity.

Your actual points though, I agree completely with. I would like to think the ref would have given them all a stern talking to and that was it. I think the only ref who would have done something with Pape is Owens who would have admonished him on the sport for being a dick. You could here the TMO trying to sway him but also the ref going, I have no choice under the directives. I think he actually uses the words "we have no way out of this with the current directives". I get the feeling the refs don't like the way it's all going as they're basically being de-powered.

I hope Burleigh gets one week and Pape gets 3 weeks for simulation.

And I hope the refs get some power to use their initiative again. All it takes is someone of Owens stature to go, I know the sanction/directive is this but in this instance it's nonsense and I'm going to use common sense. As soon as that happens the rest will fall into line...
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danjsaints
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In a blatant display of shameless self-promotion, here's an article I wrote about contact in rugby earlier this year. Apologies for NSFW language. https://thebastardlounge.com/2016/03/02/tackle-out/
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happyclapper
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No problem with shameless self-promotion when it's that well written. Cracking article Dan, I enjoyed it immensely and almost agreed with everything in it!
I am now following...
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ElmaFudd
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Yep, great article Dan.
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big mac returns
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38322884

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happyclapper
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And reading that, they talk about being lenient when a player falls into it.
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danjsaints
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Thanks chaps! Looks like complaining about rugby might end up being my authorly niche...
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flanker
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danjsaints
Dec 15 2016, 11:43 AM
Thanks chaps! Looks like complaining about rugby might end up being my authorly niche...
... I would never have guessed...! ;)
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