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Bye Bye Cockers
Topic Started: Jan 2 2017, 01:54 PM (584 Views)
ElmaFudd
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Jim may have dodged a bullet so far but not so for Cockerill. Wonder if Tigers will improve now, watch this space
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Bedford Saint
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I thought Tigers pushed Sarries pretty close at the weekend, game could have gone either way. Wonder if they have been lining someone up and just needed to finalise the details before giving Cockers the sack. Time will tell.
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ElmaFudd
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Was wondering the same thing Bedford. Tigers played pretty well against the top European side would be very harsh for a loss against Sarries to be the final nail in his coffin.

Time will out I expect.
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chesty
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Cockers gone, will miss him, commmited and passionate top four every year where do you get better.Rugby allways boring but then that's tigers for you, the win has allways been first.
Sad day for Rugby used to love hating him,
Good luck for the future.
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Ossie Reborn
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Never liked the man although I think his being part of the Tiggies didn't help his cause, insofar as I was concerned. I doubt he'll be out of work long though. there's more than a few DoRs much worse than him.
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Wibble
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Tigers have a different set of standards to most teams. Even consistent top 4 finishes and the occasional cup win are not good enough.

That said, I am not sure he is an easy man to work for/with and that could have done for him. I think tigers are more concerned at the quality of the product than the success at the moment. They need to keep growing the supporter base and their brand of rugby at the moment is not exciting (we know how that feels).

Its probably a good thing for Tigers (unfortunately) and i am sure Cockers will get a very good job elsewhere. Wonder what his french is like because i could see him doing well with the budgets and forwards dominated game they favour in france.
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big mac returns
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Agree, I hated the mans guts, but I enjoyed doing so, he played the role of general villain and registered tigers **** better then most, sorry to lose him.

Be very interesting to see where they go with it, tigers is very much a this is how we do it kind of club so the rest of u can do one, which i respect. however tigers has probably the biggest global draw and no doubt a big name kiwi would take it. do we see Sir Martin make a forey into club management after he failed with England, no doubt he'd be given time.
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happyclapper
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I am saddened by this for two reasons.
One, Tigers may get better now.
Two, I loved to hate him.

I think either a big name Kiwi or Sir Martin. They do like one of their own.
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flanker
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Good riddance. I dislike the man. Be interesting to see what MJ could do and if he's ready/up to it.

Article I read this morning talked about rugby economics. Teams like Leicester and the Saints are declining who are commercially successful, well supported, spend what they earn and live within their means. Teams that are doing better now like Saracens and Wasps run up large debts and spend very large sums. Asks if rugby is becoming like football? Is there any truth in that?
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happyclapper
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I thought Wasps also operated at a profit now they have the new stadium that they own?

I think it's Bath and Sarries who operate at a loss offset by big backers.
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flanker
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happyclapper
Jan 3 2017, 07:15 PM
I thought Wasps also operated at a profit now they have the new stadium that they own?

I think it's Bath and Sarries who operate at a loss offset by big backers.
I may have been mixing them up.
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happyclapper
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I know Bath and Sarries are definitely backed by someone. I thought Wasps turned a profit now but I could be wrong.
I think if Mauger gets them top 4 this season, based on this, he'll get the job:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38509585

Even top 6 and I think he'll get it. Fits the old-boy criterion they seem to have.
Edited by happyclapper, Jan 4 2017, 07:57 PM.
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big mac returns
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Wasps make huge money now, their turn over is huge from the non rugby aspects of the business.

Bath and Sarries both have wealthy backers and make serious losses.
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happyclapper
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Mac, do they rent the stadium back to CCFC? That would make them bucket loads if they do!
Then there are corporate events, gigs, weddings etc.
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big mac returns
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my understanding is they rent the stadium to the football club and to the Coventry rugby club. I believe this was one of the conditions of the sale to avoid the debacle when cov played at sixfields.

they also have a casino and several hotels. plus the conference centre and business suites. there is also a 10k seater concert/event arena. ultimately they have diversified massively and that has helped them fund the rugby side, its the way to do it in my opinion. Saints have been run extremely well as a rugby club but im my opinion if u want to make a significant stride forward you need to diversify and use that revenue to fund the sporting ambition. effectively you create your own wealth backer i.e bath's owner is a millionaire from a pharmaceutical business and he uses that to fund bath, however if he decides to no longer doing that they are screwed, also hes a millionaire no doubt he spends money elsewhere, if the club owns the pharmaceutical business in the first place then happy days.

they took out a loan to buy it all then issued a bond (which was a very good deal, offered about 6% and guaranteed return from memory) to restructure that debt. so they do have debt but such is business and its manageable i believe from what ive read they no turn over something like 30-50 million which puts them as a significant sporting player and not just in rugby.
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happyclapper
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Hats off to Wasps - awesome business acumen!
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flanker
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Just in case any of you out there aren't Guardian readers (!). Good article here on sport economics:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/jan/05/the-breakdown-leicester-tigers-crossroads

Leicester (and Saints?) compared with Arsenal post-Abramovich. So like football it's becoming all about the money?
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happyclapper
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Interesting read, if slightly slanted as per usual Guardian stuff.
Nice to read about other club's positions.
I don't think it is becoming all about the money as what the article fails to mention is the salary cap and you can only have two marquee players.
So once Saints and Tigs get themselves back on an even keel with the stadium payments then we should start to compete again. I think you'd position it as we're in the long haul and the others are reliant on big backers.
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Bedford Saint
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Bath are also backed by Dyson, who is the biggest single landowner in the UK, so I think they will be ok.

The Wasps model is perfect and funds the marque signings and is the major reason they can sign Beale and Le Roux.

Not sure what the formula is, but clubs should not be allowed to constantly rack up debt that is never repaid.
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flanker
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happyclapper
Jan 5 2017, 05:18 PM
Interesting read, if slightly slanted as per usual Guardian stuff.

Guardian slanted!? Not sure what you mean? ;)
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happyclapper
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flanker
Jan 5 2017, 08:27 PM
happyclapper
Jan 5 2017, 05:18 PM
Interesting read, if slightly slanted as per usual Guardian stuff.

Guardian slanted!? Not sure what you mean? ;)
You're lucky I didn't call it Guardian guff!!!
Although to be fair, sometimes some decent sports stuff in there but certainly not my cuppa otherwise!
Bedford Saint
Jan 5 2017, 08:16 PM
Not sure what the formula is, but clubs should not be allowed to constantly rack up debt that is never repaid.
I think the owners will walk away before it gets too bad. Most of them will be happy to stump up cash to get the club going but essentially they are businessmen who want to at least break even. So once it's a going concern they will want marquee to come out of the profit I am guessing. No one, no matter how rich, is going to keep giving millions away.

Not sure how much Uncle Keith invested when the game went professional (if anything), but is it just the case that everyone else is now trying to copy the model we came up with ages ago. UK invested and lost money initially but then drew the line and said, run it like a business now.

Essentially the cap will stop clubs overspending on players so there's only really so much they can lose per season unless the owners pay for stadium, coaches etc.
Edited by happyclapper, Jan 5 2017, 09:33 PM.
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Wibble
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Assuming they stick to the cap.
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ElmaFudd
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The marquee signings make the playing field undeveloped again regardless of the cap. Being able to sign two players outside the cap is a huge advantage for teams with money I've never agreed with it. For me they should scrap the whole marquee rule and just work within a sensible cap but this is off topic a little, sorry.
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Wibble
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a little OT yes Elma, but i agree with you 100%. If you want teams to be able to spend a million more then up the cap by a million. As it stands a club could pay whatever they like over the cap for 2 extra players, If those two players were Dan Carter and Matt Giteau that could be an extra 2 million over a rival who can only afford the cap. That is not fair. It also sends the wrong message... forget developing your own players, buy in expensive imports if you want to spend outside the cap.

If anything should be outside the cap it should be Senior Academy players (perhaps 4 per year).... at least that supports sustainability.
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happyclapper
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Keeping it OT...
The marquee player was brought in to compete with France. We can't completely de-regulate the cap as then it would become like football but by allowing those clubs that can afford a marquee to have one, they can compete with the French clubs. However, they only get two and two players does not a team make.
If the culture is wrong and the other players are not up to scratch then it matters not a jot if you have Carter and Giteau in the side.

Let's be honest if we had Carter and Giteau would we would suddenly be world beaters and beating Sarries?
Same applies to Glos and probably to Tigs at the moment.

However, slot Carter and Giteau into Exeter, should they be able to afford it, and boom!

Take Beale out of Wasps and they're still a very good side and one challenging for trophies. Put Beale back in and he's potentially the difference between a EC semi knockout and making it to the final.

Personally, I like the marquee idea - in case you couldn't guess?!!?!?
The club has the culture and the players around them to make it work.
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big mac returns
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there was also a rule that the marquee signings had to be from another league to prevent clubs stealing from each other (but i think its also to encourage them pinching names from france and big southern hemisphere names ala George smith). the idea was to bring big names to the league and therefore make it a bigger draw to fans especially in other countries. i.e if carter starts playing in the prem it gives it more credibility on a global scale. its highly likely i wouldn't watch any french rugby if they didnt have the big foreign names. ultimately it you could say that the new tv deals are from that rule.
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happyclapper
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That's the second marquee player. Cannot be from your own squad and cannot be for a player coming in from another prem team. First marquee can be anyone within the squad.

I agree Mac, brings in big names and makes the league more exciting.
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Wibble
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If you want these players then just up the cap by 2 million.
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happyclapper
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I'm happy with what we have Wibble.
I am certain Picamoles is our 2nd marquee player and I wouldn't be surprised if North was the other.

I think the cap and marquee work well together.

If you just up the cap then you'd have clubs spending way more than others. They could fill £2m with either 5 £400k players or 2 £1m players.

I'd rather have it as it is, definitely keeps it more a level playing field.
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big mac returns
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i think i agree

one it encourage clubs to go and steal players from abroad.

two having the marquee rule means as hc said you are limited to the number of players, say for example keiron brooks is on a figure close to 250k, if the cap was increased by 1million, you can go out and get 4 Brookseys which is arguably alot better then getting 1 king louis on 500k


would be interesting to know, how ours works, Austin healey, how he'd know i dont know, said that we were 300k under the cap, if true does that include the marquee players? or are we 300k with the marquee players discounted? I mean whats more likely we're 300k light in the salary cap cause we missed out on a target like manua etc which would possibly maybe explain why we had a late flurry of signings or that we're in financial ruin having made profits for 16 straight years and the new investment in the stand is in fact based on a loan from the council.

I dont think there is any financial issue with the club at all, i just think we went big tried to induce a big name like manua, missed out on him so then scrambled around late, picked up api estelles and tuakvake which combined probably no where near the salary of a big name would need.
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