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Ste[hen Jones in Sunday Times; Interesting article on Saints
Topic Started: Jan 3 2017, 07:14 PM (243 Views)
happyclapper
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For those who missed it, here it is:
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/sport/saints-looking-for-a-saviour-t7v7mv9jf

Really worth a read. Basically says Jim should be given time to fix the issues and that we've been a victim of circumstance.
Some interesting comments at the end as well.
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flanker
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Can't get past the paywall unfortunately.
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ElmaFudd
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Try this link instead
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Bedford Saint
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Thanks for the link, interesting stuff and good to see Jones write something positive about Saints.

Not sure Luther is/was the person we want to build a team around, certainly not at 12, 13 maybe. Luther is not a great distributor and has a very limited kicking game. Very much a confidence player who needs to start blasting his way over the gainline to even get in the first XV in my opinion.

Lancaster badly let him down and the blow would have been even greater especially as he and Luther go back years. Here's hoping Lancaster ends up at Welford Road.
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flanker
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ElmaFudd
Jan 3 2017, 10:14 PM
Thank you. Interesting article. I'm not sure Burrell is the lynchpin. He has played well in bursts but doesn't seem to have a strong enough all round game to me.
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happyclapper
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Yeah. I wasn't convinced about building a team round Burrell either but he was very good and is now very poor. If he gets very good again, things will pick up as he is destructive.

Elms, how did you get the non paywall link?
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big mac returns
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I agree with most of it apart from the Burrell element.

its a nice story "oh if only lancaster had picked Burrell........." but its just rubbish really and shows no real attention to the reality of Burrell as a player. Burrell spent most of his England Caps at 13 and did ok, he played a simply game and was effective, much like when we won the league and when hes played his best stuff, nothing wrong being a straight up and down player, its vital to a side. however hes simply not at that standard especially now that as said his confidence is shot and he has it in his head that bashing it up the middle isnt good enough. his distribution isnt up to scatch and he looks for miracle balls he cant do and hes a weak link defensively. All i can say is that Burrell looked physically very impressive post that world cup camp, he looked a complete powerhouse, just maybe he could have been good, but no guarantees and he never really showed he was a world beater that england needed.


I agree we have been unlucky. glad mallinder is coming back, he was our best player last season and with him, jj and myler we have options in the 10/12 channel.

Our squad has been tested no doubt, for me mainly at 2nd row, but this has been improved by api, he came late though so struggled at beginning. the loss of day was huge, hes such an important player for us. other wise, apart from full back we have decent depth.

Losing Kahn was also huge, shame it seems to have been for money. Groom is ok, Dickson has like Burrell been "space jammed" (points for understanding the reference) and kessell is a championship player.

It has been many things that have caused us to completely fail this year so far and they have all happened at once. only thing that is worth noting is that things seem to be on the up and we have alot of big games to play. we win them and things get interesting, however no reason to believe why we should.
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flanker
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big mac returns
Jan 4 2017, 11:59 AM
I agree with most of it apart from the Burrell element.

its a nice story "oh if only lancaster had picked Burrell........." but its just rubbish really and shows no real attention to the reality of Burrell as a player. Burrell spent most of his England Caps at 13 and did ok, he played a simply game and was effective, much like when we won the league and when hes played his best stuff, nothing wrong being a straight up and down player, its vital to a side. however hes simply not at that standard especially now that as said his confidence is shot and he has it in his head that bashing it up the middle isnt good enough. his distribution isnt up to scatch and he looks for miracle balls he cant do and hes a weak link defensively. All i can say is that Burrell looked physically very impressive post that world cup camp, he looked a complete powerhouse, just maybe he could have been good, but no guarantees and he never really showed he was a world beater that england needed.


I agree we have been unlucky. glad mallinder is coming back, he was our best player last season and with him, jj and myler we have options in the 10/12 channel.

Our squad has been tested no doubt, for me mainly at 2nd row, but this has been improved by api, he came late though so struggled at beginning. the loss of day was huge, hes such an important player for us. other wise, apart from full back we have decent depth.

Losing Kahn was also huge, shame it seems to have been for money. Groom is ok, Dickson has like Burrell been "space jammed" (points for understanding the reference) and kessell is a championship player.

It has been many things that have caused us to completely fail this year so far and they have all happened at once. only thing that is worth noting is that things seem to be on the up and we have alot of big games to play. we win them and things get interesting, however no reason to believe why we should.
All good points.
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ElmaFudd
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happyclapper
Jan 4 2017, 12:03 AM
Yeah. I wasn't convinced about building a team round Burrell either but he was very good and is now very poor. If he gets very good again, things will pick up as he is destructive.

Elms, how did you get the non paywall link?
I didnt mate just copied the link from a certain other forum 😉
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happyclapper
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I think Burrell showed glimpses of more than just the power games, so nice off-loading and good angles. But he'll never be the complete player as he cannot kick. But then Nonu wasn't complete player but was certainly world class... I think Luther was on the cusp of becoming very good and then it all came crashing down.

Kahn is certainly an interesting one as for me, he never really did it for us, in my opinion. The odd glimpse and good game but otherwise nothing like the form he showed before he joined us or since he's joined Bath. I was completely ambivalent when he left.

Elms - any chance you can ask on said forum. I don't really want to join it just to ask, it's not happy clappy enough for me. The few times I've voyeured there I've left feeling thoroughly depressed.
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big mac returns
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I think a lot of what Kahn did was under appreciated and only now we're seeing what we miss.

Not sure kicking is a requirement for 12, SBW, Nono, Roberts, Darcy all world class 12s none could/can kick, nono a little now. Nice to have a second kicker, doesn't have to be a 12.
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happyclapper
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It's the SCW, Eddie mantra, they want a ball playing 12 - i.e. a second play maker who can distribute and kick from 12.
I think it depends on your game plan.
The ABs never needed it as Carter was that good, and Nonu was so good at getting over the gainline, and if he didn't then someone else would.
With Wales, Warrenball doesn't need a ball playing 12. Roberts can do nothing that doesn't involve running his big melon hard at whatever is in front of him.
Ireland don't need it with the quality of centres either.
And Saints didn't need it with Downey and then Luther when he was playing well.

Without constantly getting over the gainline with power, you need options at 12. That's either a second distributer/kicker, or an attacking playmaker.
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Wibble
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I think given time Harry could be the answer at 12. Good hands, strong runner and a kicking option. Just needs game time to build his defence.

Luther is better at 13 and a bit of confidence and he might be very good again. With kicking options elsewhere we can relieve the pressure through power or clever kicks behind.

I did feel for Luther when the Burgess disgrace happened.
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Bedford Saint
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I think that with defences now so well organised, to beat the top top teams you need more than a crash ball 12. Agree Nonu wasnt too much more than that in his early days, but he became a much more rounded player later. Wales with Roberts rarely beat a top team, their record against SH teams proves that.

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ElmaFudd
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HC best to ask Wibble if he can find out. I scan through posts on there but no longer have a valid login and can'take be bothered to sign back up. However I know Wibble still posts there
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Wibble
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What specific question is that HC? Happy to go ask.... if i get an answer thats not "Sack Jim" at the moment i dont know. They are a bit down over there at the moment. :-(
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happyclapper
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Thanks Wibble, they're always a bit down on there which is why I don't go there often and don't have a logon.

It was how someone on there got a link for the Sunday Times article which meant you didn't have to be registered to view it?
When I copy the link from the browser it means people have to login.
The link Elms nabbed from there was one where you didn't need to log in...
I'd love to share stuff from The Times that people can actually read if they don't have a logon.
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