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Joffrey/Cersei Discussion thread; Soon to be Final Council Discussion
Topic Started: May 25 2014, 11:38 PM (395 Views)
Bronn
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I Sell My Sword
Sept of Baelor
We are probably getting a Joffrey/Cersei f2, but I think that Sansa wants to keep shooting at Joffrey until he falls. Which is what I would have done too, honestly, had it been someone else they voted for last night. I think I could have made it one or two rounds further, had I stuck with the Lannisters last round, but I really, really wanted to win this game and I knew that going after Joffrey was my only chance to actually get there.

I actually like the little shit. Had this format been different, I would have gladly stuck with him and his mam (well at least a bit longer). But this is an arena game. You can't really be very loyal to someone as dominating as the boy king if you're not his number 1 ally. Because, at the end of the day, he'll kill you anyway and you're not setting yourself for a good end game. And this game's variation to the arena twist gave Cersei the same protection, so it was pretty imperative to get Joffrey out to kill the beast and leave his mam unprotected.

My issues with Joffrey's game are that he did nothing to avoid the target every round. Like, sure he made those small alliances everywhere, but they weren't going to do shit. The reason he was targeted so much is something he should have been able to predict every round. He could have sandbagged those challenges that meant nothing to him. He did throw one or two challenges pre-merge, but made it a point to tell everyone that he was doing it, so it didn't lessen his target at all. But he always completely dominated those fucking challenges and it made him such a big threat. I bet his strategy was too look intimidating, but this wasn't a cast of sheep willing to be slaughtered so it completely backfired. He could have also worked out deals on a more individual basis. We talked a lot about his idea of a final four with him, his mam, meself and Melisandre, but that's how far as it went. He could have come to me and said: "Look, when we get there, don't worry. I love my mother, but I know I cannot beat her, so I'll be taking you to the end and you'll bow out gracefully, won't you, sellsword??". He could have gone to Melisandre and offered F2 to her because they were the two best challenge performers in the game and, not only would it make them unstoppable, but they'd be damned if someone who couldn't win challenges would scoop the win from them. Those are just examples and I'm not saying it would have been easy to convince people of such intentions, but it would have created doubt, at least. The ultimate result of all this is that everyone figured that working with him was a dead end.

I'm not criticizing him for winning duels, that's part of the game. I'm criticizing him for the things he did not do.

But all of this is based on my limited view, maybe visiting the Bear Pit was part of his strategy somehow, so I'll wait and reserve judgement. Again, I kind of enjoy him, but I just know that it's going to be hard for me to vote for him over anyone still in the game if he claims that there was nothing he could have done to avoid the Pit.

Cersei, though. Everyone knows that she's a social goddess. Probably the best social player in this game. She even manages to make us forget that she's a complete bitch, but that's part of her charm.

She's definitely benefiting from her son being a successful challenge monster and attracting the target on himself over her, but it's hard to fault her for that. I seriously believe that without her son, Cersei would still be in this game right now. In fact, I think that the only reason why some are against her is her association with Joffrey. At this point, I think she'll win this game, unless Joffrey lets her die at F3 or something disgraceful like that. The last opportunity to get her out was tonight, because we had a plan to split it between Pyke if any of us won the challenge and if Tyrion was so willing (which I'm not so certain). At this point, I'd probably vote Cersei over anyone else out of sheer respect, even over people I've been more closely aligned with.

If you merge Cersei and Joffrey together, you probably get the perfect player. They both dominated in their own way and it's something I respect a lot, as much as it was a bitch to deal with.
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Bronn
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I Sell My Sword
Sept of Baelor
Oooh. Fail. I just noticed in the Welcome Jurors thread that this would be a final 3? I think that nobody expects this. I'll admit that it never even crossed my mind.
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Tywin Lannister
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Lord of Casterly Rock
Tywin's War Council
Nah. That was something that Lancel should have noted, but it is not a F3. Idiot nephew.
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Bronn
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I Sell My Sword
Sept of Baelor
That's kind of reassuring, actually.
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Melisandre
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The Red Priestess
Sept of Baelor
I will give my input tomorrow, but I am not completely decided. The Lord of Light leans heavily toward Cersei, but I do think have some counterpoints to bring up about your Joffrey discussion when I have time.
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Catelyn Stark
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Family. Duty. Honor.
Sept of Baelor
I don't have too much to contribute, but Cersei's approach is the sort that works better for me than Joffrey's for a lot of the reasons you stated-she was far better at one on one plans than Joffrey, and while Joffrey was certainly intimidating because of challenges, he could have done more to avoid all these duels he's been getting into lately-I ultimately have a bit more respect for someone who is involved in so much fewer arenas.

Also, I think this F2 is not as inevitable as you think, although admittedly I cannot really see a scenario where Joffrey does not make finals off duels. Cersei being put in and losing something though? I could see it.
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Catelyn Stark
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Family. Duty. Honor.
Sept of Baelor
Really the only thing I could use against Cersei if she went to the F2 with her son is the fact that she told some pointless lies-most notably when she claimed she wasn't going to vote for me during the voting period where I left even after I flat out said to her that I knew she was targeting me and Sansa, because any idiot could see that. But that's a bit flimsy.
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Bronn
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I Sell My Sword
Sept of Baelor
Catelyn Stark,May 26 2014
09:25:57 AM
Also, I think this F2 is not as inevitable as you think, although admittedly I cannot really see a scenario where Joffrey does not make finals off duels. Cersei being put in and losing something though? I could see it.

I agree with this. I'll state for the record that this is all mostly based on an assumption I probably shouldn't be making because whether Joffrey intends to go to the end with his mam or not is kind of a blind spot for me. Maybe he plans on bootin' her right before the end. I'm really not sure. I'm especially wondering where the little lion fits in all this.

Also, I'm definitely not goin' to use the number of times fighting in the Bear Pit as the sole determining factor, because no one was goin' to come after Cersei with her bastard still in the game to champion her. If one of us could beat him, it had to be for good. And obviously, this was a very enviable position for Cersei. I just kind of favor her because I don't believe she really needed that so it's not like she was some useless player dragged to this point. She also lied to me til the bitter end about voting me out, but I've done pretty much the same thing the whole merge so I am not going to complain. Telling the truth is a bit harder in a game with more than one target every round.
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Melisandre
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The Red Priestess
Sept of Baelor
As far as Joffrey not wanting to make a deal with me, I do not think it's too much an indictment on his skill as a player. "King" Joffrey only maximized the potential he had to get to the finals by removing me from the game. If Joffrey made a deal with me, then he's sending in weak challenge performers that will possibly duel against him, and the minute that I try to champion one of those people, that puts him in danger.

Imagine if Joffrey and I had a deal, and R'hllor thought it best that I renege on that deal to champion Sansa in the trial by combat against him. Not only does this put Joffrey in danger, but it means that I still will stick around another round for him to possibly face off against me. This is very risky for Joffrey, and I think it made more sense for him to get rid of his biggest competition as soon as possible. With me gone, Joffrey never had to worry about facing me directly and never had to worry about me potentially screwing him over by championing him. One of my biggest regrets in the game was not trying to champion Renly or Loras against Joffrey, because I believe I could have finished that puzzle much quicker. I doubt Loras would have accepted and Renly was unable to be there to accept, but I could have taken out Joffrey much earlier. Instead, I wasted that round and gave him more opportunities to survive.

I agree that he more or less forced himself into needing to win to survive, rather than relying on relationships. But sometimes, when challenges are your best asset, I think it's important to change your frame of reference to reflect what moves are going to benefit your particular strengths. Joffrey's social bonds could have used some improvement, yes, but I think what was important with him was not securing my loyalty or my friendship, but neutralizing me as a potential threat to his reign. For somebody who knows challenges are what will serve them best in the game, it is in that person's best interest to arrange the competition so that you're unbeatable first, and work on things like social game second.

Now for Cersei, she was obviously the person in the game I was closest to besides you, Ser Bronn. And I think she made a mistake voting me off, and this is why: I was potentially her biggest asset, because nothing I was going to do was ever going to put her directly in danger. I never voted for her, and if the time had come to do so I would have tried to redirect the vote onto her brother. Cersei is putting all of her chips in her son's basket, and while they are aligned and very close with one another... I just feel as though keeping me around would give her another person she could have that would always be looking out for her, wanting to sit in the finals with her, and would be a much bigger target than her. For a woman who doesn't believe in the Lord of Light, she's putting quite a bit of faith in the fact that her son will take her to the end when she is very clearly in a good position to beat him.

Tyrion I respect least of the Lannisters. He was the one saying that he didn't trust them all of this time, and I would love to know how he ever expects to win this game or even get to the end to argue his case. Joffrey and Cersei spoke very plainly about how they wanted to work with Bronn and myself, so he should already know he can't trust them outright. They already know that they can't trust him. If he wanted a chance of winning, he needed to make sure that Joffrey and Cersei were pitted against one another. Sansa would have gone crawling back to him if he had, so I think he would have been in an alright position and he would have opened up new avenues to get himself to the end. Now though? He'll never get a Joffrey vs. Cersei duel. He has to pray that some miracle happens and Joffrey is killed before he can bring Cersei to the end, or until he can simply wipe the floor with Tyrion in front of the jury.
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Catelyn Stark
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Family. Duty. Honor.
Sept of Baelor
Bronn,May 26 2014
02:09:28 PM
Also, I'm definitely not goin' to use the number of times fighting in the Bear Pit as the sole determining factor

Oh no, neither am I-I am very willing to hear Joffrey's case if this F2 comes to pass, and his odds of getting my vote go up against Tyrion or Margaery, both of whom have not been in a single duel. But it is a factor, and the fact of the matter is, when one goes into the pit, you have a 50-50 chance of dying, and your odds of that go up in a double. Knowing that you can probably defeat anyone you face and playing with that is a perfectly acceptable strategy but I ultimately think it takes a bit more finesse to avoid it entirely, which Cersei's done so far most admirably.

Also I'm writing this under the assumption that he keeps getting thrown into the pit, whether it's to ensure someone dies for good or to avoid voting for, and thus angering, too many different people-for all we know, he might not go in again. Money is getting even more important despite the idol and round skippers no longer being usable, so extra votes will be making all the difference.
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Bronn
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I Sell My Sword
Sept of Baelor
I understand what you're saying. But what I was getting at in the OP was that he didn't try to even entertain the notion with us. You're right, he probably did benefit from you leaving and going after you is not something I'm going to hold against him at all. I'm just saying that he didn't really try to convince anyone that his loyalty to them wouldn't be terminated at Final 4. And the pitch could have been made without being entirely unconvincing. I'm sure that everybody in the game talked about Cersei being a jury threat at some point.

Secondly, I'm not dissing Joffrey's social game. He was very amusing and his ravens were among my favorites in the entire game. If anything, that is something that works heavily in his favor (for me anyway). The only thing I'm skeptical about would be his foresight. I don't think that he anticipated that we would actually come after him and so many times too and I believe that if he could have actually predicted it, he would have done things to prevent it. I'm just curious to get his insight on the game in general and what he believes to be the one best way for someone like him to play it. He can definitely be redeemed in my eyes if he proves me wrong and I'm very open-minded about it.

About the little lord... I have a lot of things on my mind, but I'm going to reserve my judgement for later. I really wasn't very impressed last night, if that was any indication as to what we're going to get.
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Lancel Lannister
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Idiot Nephew
Tywin's War Council
Tywin Lannister,May 26 2014
01:07:48 AM
Nah. That was something that Lancel should have noted, but it is not a F3. Idiot nephew.

:cry

Also, sad to see the both of you out! Game well played, both of you. :<3
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Bronn
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I Sell My Sword
Sept of Baelor
Thanks, Lancel, but I don't know how I feel about you using this thread to post that.

I have a sinking feeling that Joffrey will choose this round to lose a duel, just to make this thread seem silly.
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Margaery Tyrell
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The Little Rose
Sept of Baelor
I will voice my opinion on Cersei vs. Joffrey later, but I just want to express my absolute, complete, utter disgust at the game Tyrion Lannister is playing. He has been playing for his relatives despite all signs that he is vastly inferior to them. I have enjoyed both Cersei and Joffrey more than I have him, and the fact they somehow have managed to get him on a leash and pull him with them to this point is just astounding to me. Have we not all heard the little monster decry his sister and nephew, and talk about how obvious it was that they were winning and that something must be done?

He is all talk and no words. His entire game is to placate everyone else and pretend as if he is actually doing something about the situation, when the reality is that he is weak-kneed and cowardly. His apology to me after the round Bronn left was the most pathetic vote-grabbing attempt I have ever witnessed in the seven kingdoms. You should have seen it, Bronn. His excuses were like a torrent of shit. I knew he was not helping us when he asked if he could switch votes with me in our split vote plan, as he simply did not want Cersei to duel. Despite knowing he is losing to her, he still saves her.

His plan is to sneak into the end with Joffrey and snatch up the anti-Joffrey vote. He believes there is enough where Cersei can leave at F3 I believe and he can scrape a victory together from people who think Joffrey is too "mean". Ridiculous.

I know that I shall never be voting him.
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Margaery Tyrell
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The Little Rose
Sept of Baelor
It just frustrates me that many of our split ideas were impossible because he was a delusional little elf.
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