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MAVS V. Heat; Championship Finals
Topic Started: Jun 8 2006, 12:08 PM (240 Views)
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This from a email newsletter and it is about a year old but it still a very good read.
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Trading Practices, Volume One


Over the past couple of weeks we’ve sought input on how fantasy owners perceive the art of trading. We’ve polled both staff members and also its readers to gather a good cross-section of opinion. Now it’s time to reveal the results in what we hope will make a useful series on fantasy trading. So, without further ado, let’s get on with Volume 1 of our Trading Practices column.



First order of business is to thank all who responded to my request for opinions last week and send along congratulations to the winner of the random draw, Jeff Cooper of Houston. Jeff wins a free Mid-season MLB Draft Kit for his efforts. Not sure if that’ll take the sting out of having to watch the Astros struggle along this year, but it can’t hurt. Congrats, Jeff!



This week, let’s focus on what fantasy owners think is the hardest part about trading and we mean, as so aptly put by Thomas Edward Ruddick of Dayton, Ohio, “Besides the dorks who want to offer you a burned out shell for this season's all-star.”



Ruddick adds: “The thing that makes it hard is when the people you want to trade with are not willing to engage in a realistic discussion. When someone says ‘I want Guardado and I'll offer you something in this range...’ then it gets easy.”



There’s no doubting Thomas here; we’ve all had to deal with those “dorks.” You have to wonder if those people ever try to filter the trade through their own radar and ask themselves, “Would I make this deal?” I think reality breaks down for those people when they get tunnel vision on the player they’re trying to acquire and don’t ever look at the deal from the other owner’s perspective. As Cooper says, “seeing the trade from the potential trading partner’s point of view” is the hardest part of making a deal.



Brian Walton has found that while the web world provides some great benefits from a research standpoint, it also has its downside which can make it very difficult to complete deals.



“The Internet has been a tremendous boon to fantasy baseball,” he writes. “However, it encourages laziness, as well. Perhaps I am from a different era, but I am appalled by the number of people who feel it is totally acceptable to ignore personal e-mails directed at them. Trade offers are a primary example.”



Well, I can’t comment on Brian being from a different era (although I sure want to), but I do agree that unreturned e-mails are maddening. And it brings up the whole issue of embedding a statute of limitations on e-mail offers. Let’s say I offered an owner Danys Baez and a draft choice for Eric Gagne two weeks ago. Say he ignored it, but comes back now and says he wants to accept the deal. Obviously, I am not bound by this, but it raises the point that you almost have to time-stamp electronic offers with an expiry date, especially when dealing with those slow responders. It’s the only way to cover yourself from being seen as pulling an offer you’ve made off the table.



Tucson’s Patrick Quinn, the Project Leader at Baseball Info Solutions, also finds communication to be wanting, but he has an interesting theory on why fantasy owners have a tough time in this area.



“Lack of communication,” is the hardest part of trading, Quinn writes. “If I send an offer, often I receive no response. When I receive an offer, often I receive no comments on the offer (making a counter offer a guessing game). I guess it fits with the generality that men don’t know how to communicate and/or are not willing to communicate.”



Maybe there’s some women fantasy owners who would like to pipe in on that issue.



Meanwhile, David Case of Baltimore/Silver Spring, says that he’s had issues with player valuations and how they can fluctuate so much from person to person.



So for him, the hardest part of dealing is “knowing what other teams think of your players.” Says Case: “It's hard to be objective when it comes to recognizing your own talent or lack thereof. There was a reason you drafted/picked up/traded for every player on your roster -- and a corresponding reason why someone else in your league didn't. If you don't have a reasonable interpretation of the value of a certain player on your team, you'll never be able to get what you consider value in return, making it tough to come to any agreement for those guys.”



It’s an age-old problem. One man’s trash is another’s treasure and there is no formula for this stuff. That’s why it’s always good to have a veto process in your league to ensure you don’t have any deals that shift the power in the league in a negative and unfair fashion.



Another challenge, explains John Dunfee, is that while you obviously play fantasy ball to win, and you’d ideally like to make the best deal possible, there’s a balance that needs to be struck between making a fair deal and potentially burning your trading partner.



“Put as succinctly as possible, for me [the hardest part of trading is] walking the delicate line between finding the best deal possible for yourself and not annoying your opponents with lowball offers that could end the communication,” Dunfee writes.



And of course, the other danger of lowball offers is potentially alienating the other owner from future discussions – a real consideration in keeper leagues where there tends to be less turnover and you’ll have to deal with those owners again and again.



Mike Amato has seen a similar dynamic in his dealings and says that this can create a league where even reasonable deals that help both teams are tough to make.



“Obviously, finding the common ground,” is the hardest part of dealing, Amato writes. “Particularly if the league becomes cut-throat, there is a presumption that all offers are made in an attempt to swindle one owner for the benefit of the other. This hostile environment becomes blinding, and trades that benefit both sides tend to get lost in the shuffle.”



It’s true. Leagues can become poisoned over time if enough of this occurs. It’s always important to treat your trading partner the same way you’d want to be treated, even though you’re competing against one another.



That’s a wrap for this week. In our next column on Trading Practices, we’ll look at the important elements involved in making a deal.



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Trading Practices, Volume Two


It’s All-Star week in baseball, and that means that most fantasy league’s trading deadlines are looming. With this in mind, Spikes Up switches its focus back to our Trading Practices series. This week, in Volume Two of the series, we examine the vital elements that you should keep in mind as you approach a trade negotiation.



Again, thanks to all our readers and columnists who provided their opinions for the purposes of this exercise.



Thomas Edward Ruddick of Dayton, Ohio, says that it’s vital to have a clear understanding of your own team’s goals and prospects before jumping in.



“What’s my strategy? If I'm in a full-team dynasty keeper league and I'm rebuilding, then I must not trade promising youth for Randy Johnson. If I'm contending for the title and wanting to boost my stats, then the opposite might be an idea,” Ruddick says.



Next up, he adds, you’ve got to ask yourself: “What's the other coach's strategy? The best trades are the ones where both sides get a benefit; if I'm rebuilding then I want to send my veterans to a contender for their prospects, or vice versa.”



Brian Walton talked about the need to “take the time to analyze your prospective trading partners’ roster and his/her place in the standings.” He says this is an element that needs to be repeated over and over. “Without being condescending, explain how the trade could help them.”



David Case of Baltimore/Silver Spring, says you need to come to terms with the fact that what’s good for you is most likely bad for your trading partner. This is the key to making fair trades, he explains.



“People generally understand that any appreciation you trade for in your team will likely be a corresponding depreciation for the other team. Understanding this may make it easier to see where your opponent is coming from, and easier to make an offer that seems fair to both sides.”



In keeping with this line of thinking, Case adds, “it's important to have an objective valuation of any player you are trying to trade away, and keep in mind the same goes for your opponent and his 'objective' valuation of his players.”



John Dunfee asks himself three very simple but incredibly vital questions as he enters a trade discussion:



1. Does the trade improve my team?

2. Why does my opponent want to do it?

3. What are the repercussions that I don't see (in terms of impact on other

teams in roto standings, subsequent moves that will follow the trade, etc.)?



Jeff Cooper of Houston, Tx., thinks the number one requirement when approaching a trade discussion is to “understand if you and your trading partner are playing for this year or next.” Patrick Quinn, Project Leader of Tucson, Az.-based Baseball Info Solutions, echoes that sentiment, saying that “needs – your trading partner’s needs and your needs” – is the most important element.



As Ruddick says, this is exactly how trades are made: “I need a closer, you need a shortstop; we both have surplus in each other's weak areas, bingo!”



Cooper says this isn’t often just about positions, but rather about specific stat requirements. He advises that you should “know what categories will help you the most and what categories you can afford less production the rest of the way, and the same for your trading partner.”



Mike Amato, another columnist believes that communication and the respective biases of the prospective trading partners are the most important things.



“The three most vital elements to me are: open communication, personal bias/values, and the other owner’s personal bias/values. It is extremely difficult to trade with people who don't include comments with their offers, rejections, or counter-offers. Therefore, the most important element is communication: to explain your thoughts on a trade, for them to explain their views on player performance, etc. The two biases are the next two most important elements: everyone has biases as to how they think someone will perform, and thus how high that value is. The inability to identify these makes trading difficult. Conversely, the ability to identify these can very often open the door to a very successful trade on your part.”



Quinn also talked about the need to clearly communicate your needs and tacked on the following nugget of wisdom: “never say something mean.” Good advice if you ever want to deal with this person again.



Walton’s advice: “Don’t single-thread your deals. Given the glacial pace at which many owners move in trade deliberations, if you have a need, make offers to a number of teams in parallel. It takes more time, but increases the odds of success.”



My advice, if taking this approach, is to be honest that the offers you make are conditional upon other discussions you’re having with other league members. This will help you avoid getting a bad name by yanking an offer from the table that the other owner has agreed to.



“Don’t take any discussion personally,” Case says. He admits this is sometimes hard, “because many other players like to play 'hardball' in negotiations, and if you take a rejection/ridiculous counter-offer as a personal insult (like, "What, this guy thinks I'm stupid or something?") it might make any present deal impossible, and taint your impression of your opponent for any future discussions, which is where the real damage can come in.”



Walton talks about how getting to know the particular whims of the people you deal with can often help facilitate deals.



“Whenever possible, know the preferences of your trading partner. For example, I am in several leagues with a man who hates the Yankees and prefers National League players on his roster. As a result, if he has Randy Johnson, I’ll make an offer. If I have Johnson, I won’t offer him up in trade to this guy.”



Cooper says another important consideration at this time of year is to think not just about what the players you’re talking about acquiring or trading have done so far, but what they will likely do from this point on. So his advice is to “research the second half potential for all players involved.”



The final note this week goes to Quinn, who offers up the most basic, but strangely most often overlooked consideration: figuring out “how to create a win-win deal.”



Sounds simple, but how many negotiations get bogged down because this basic concept gets lost somewhere in the midst of trade talks?

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Trading Practices, Volume Three

We're back with our series on Trading Practices, this week trotting out Volume Three. Today, we'll look at what characteristics the ideal trading partner possesses. Here's what those polled had to say on the matter.

Have Enough open communication so that you get a good feel for what the person needs in a trade, says Thomas Edward Ruddick of Dayton, Ohio. Over and over, the term communication is bandied about when discussing what makes trades tick. Hell, is this Dr. Phil or Dr. Fantasy Ball? Perhaps those life skills are transferable.

Brian Walton says that an ideal trading partner is realistic about the value of his players and yours (and) is willing to discuss alternatives and come to a reasonably quick decision one way or the other. That does sound perfect, does it? Someone who is capable of seeing things from both sides, is flexibility and someone who don't drag their heels, stringing you along when you could be closing deals elsewhere.

David Case of Baltimore/Silver Spring, talked about how important it is to deal with someone that's reasonable. If your partner is only looking to buy low and sell high, then you guys aren't going to get anywhere (just like there are no 'sleepers' anymore, most people understand that Eric Chavez is not a .198 hitter, and Jim Thome will eventually have more than seven HR this season [Editor's note: these responses were solicited in late-June, hence the out-of-date numbers. The principles obviously still apply]. There are some chances people are willing to take, but mostly owners are more savvy than in the past, so if one or both sides aren't reasonable in both their approach to the trade and their valuation of both sides' players, then there will be no trade.

John Dunfee is succinct in what he wants at clarity. My ideal trading partner is a straight shooter who tells me upfront what he/she is looking for and Ah yes, honesty. The direct approach. So simple, yet so rare.

Honesty was also cited by Patrick Quinn, Project Leader of Tucson, Ariz.-based Baseball Info Solutions, as one of the traits possessed by his ideal trading partner. He also seeks communication skills and a willingness to create a win-win deal. Enjoying long walks on the beach was not mentioned, however.

An equally simple, but poignant concept was put forth by Jeff Cooper of Houston. He wants to deal with someone that makes fair offers and understands what the other owner is looking for.

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Trading Practices, Volume Four

Despite the passing of the MLB trade deadline, vanilla that it was, Spikes Up is back with more of our trading advice this week. Without further ado, here's Volume Four of our Trading Practices column, this week focusing on the various trading philosophies of our esteemed respondents.

Thomas Edward Ruddick of Dayton, Ohio, believes in value for value as his basic trading philosophy. Beyond that, he adds, trading two good players for one superstar is an idea.

Yes, anytime you can add depth to a lesser team by dealing two second tier players for a star, it's a great idea. Not only do you win the trade by subscribing to the owner-who-gets-the-best-player-wins-the-trade tenet, but you also clear a roster spot, thereby allowing you to protect another player.

Brian Walton says he doesn't subscribe to a set trading philosophy. as he like to think it varies based on a number of factors, including time of the season, standings, category and position needs, keeper league or not and many others.

David Case of Baltimore/Silver Spring, on the other hand, believes in trying to lend a helping hand when sculpting his offers, but obviously with a view to helping his own squad.

so I only offer deals that I think would reasonably help my trading partner, as he says. I try to look for areas of improvement for opposing teams that line up with areas I'm willing to trade away, and target those teams in trade discussions. Then, I look for guys on their team that are underperforming (though not very significantly underperforming, as most owners are wise to the fact that those guys are probably worth more than you get back in a trade). If there are no underperformers in areas that I am targeting, then I look for a deal that looks fair and will help both teams.

John Dunfee takes a more altruistic, for-the-good-of-the-league approach to his trading, to a certain extent.

My general assumption is that I should do any trade that strikes me as balanced, because it makes leagues more fun and builds goodwill with other owners. I also try to seem like the straight shooter, while actually hiding my true intentions in a lot of instances, he says. as I try to build a plausible reality as to why a trade makes sense for me, but I also don't want to give away too much about my general philosophies, etc.

Sounds like a good basis for a fine poker player.

Jeff Cooper of Houston, also tries to ensure league harmony in his dealings, especially when trading with new owners.

Always counter offer and don't fleece newbies,as is the basis of his trading philosophy, he says. I hate when owners just say no to my offers with no explanation or counter offer, he adds.

Mike Amato reveals that he takes a slightly more devious approach in his trading doctrines.

One approach I tend to use is to use the favorite players and favorite team of owners to bait them in trades. Including a guy that is their favorite player obviously draws their attention, at a minimum, he says. Seems reasonable enough. But then Mike adds this technique:

Another trick which can work with some owners is to talk up a player on the message board (or talk one down) publicly, and try to increase or decrease a players value, prior to making a trade for or with that player. Mentally, some owners don't catch this and will shift their valuation.

Interesting. Any openings in your league?

On the other hand, Patrick Quinn, Project Leader at Tucson, Ariz.-based Baseball Info Solutions, likes to be very up front with the other owners in his leagues.

His philosophy is to tell all owners that I respond to all offers within 48 hours, most responses in less than 12 hours. Further, if I decline the original trade offer, I always provide a counter offer (guaranteed counter offers only for the initial offer, not an infinite loop of counter offers), he says.

He then offers up a list of trading tips that fit into his approach: Never take insult from an offer. Consider every offer and counter offer as communication (especially since it might be the only communication you receive). Don't assume the insult; just respond with a deal you like. This allows you to understand where the other owner is coming from and encourages future trade offers. They need to know you better and know you are serious about trading. Once this is established, they will probably give you offers you like in the future, he says.

and Force yourself to reply to every trade offer received quickly. The hardest part of trades is the first offer. By respecting the person willing to make the effort, you receive more trade offers from that person in the future. You might even receive more realistic offers the more you interact with them. The quick response will make you more attractive to them in the future when they need an emergency deal just before a weekly deadline, Quinn continues.

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Trading Practices, Volume Five

You're in the middle of a trade negotiation and things are progressing towards a deal. Suddenly, something throws a monkey wrench into the works and the trade talks completely break down. What happened? It occurs all the time and this week, in Volume Five of our Trading Practices column, our poll respondents weigh in on what they consider to be the deal breakers.

sence It gets ridiculous when people declare these players are on the block, but they won't even respond to a decent offer, laments Thomas Edward Ruddick of Dayton, Ohio. I also start to ignore people who keep posting the same stupid trade in one league this season I've got a guy who sends me several trades weekly involving (a) a decent starter and a bozo reliever for Roy Halladay [Editors note: Ruddick sent me this prior to Halladay injury]; and (B ) Todd Helton and a scrub for David Ortiz. Er, no deal, dude!

True enough. Nothing more annoying than having the same lame trade offers hurled at you over and over again.

One deal breaker says Brian Walton, is when an owner is working multiple trading partners off against one another to increase his take. In that case, I say go ahead and take the other offer then.

Another deal breaker for Walton is when a doddering owner says, I'll have to think about it and get back to you. Ninety-nine percent of the time, they know they don't want to take the deal, but are too weak to say so. When I hear that line, I know to move on.

Kind of the fantasy baseball equivalent of the dating line as I think we should just be friends. In either case, you know you won't be getting any.

David Case of Baltimore/Silver Spring, says it's all about reasonableness when it comes to deal breakers. When I throw out an offer that seems reasonable (say, Mark Buehrle) and ask for one of the opposing player's top hitters in return (I think I asked for one of Alfonso Soriano, Brian Roberts, Gary Sheffield or Hank Blalock) from a team that (obviously) is very strong in the hitting categories and relatively weak in the pitching categories, and I get summarily rebuffed (I like Buehrle, but I'm not giving up all my offense for him) then I know no deal is in the offing. Then the guy comes back with [Eurbiel] Durazo and [Matt] Stairs and explains to me how good this deal would be for me (‘Think of all the home runs!! And by the way, I want [Shea] Hillenbrand back from you to fill my position vacancy). Enough said.

For John Dunfee, a lowball offers/counters tend to turn him off. I also don't like being told why a bad deal is actually good for me. With that being said, I try to fight through those reactions and maintain open communication with everyone,as he says.

as usually lowball offers (or previous trades that blew up in an opponents face) that seem to turn people away from me, Dunfee adds.

Unfair offers, are the deal breakers for Houston's Jeff Cooper.

For example, he says, just last week [mid-June], an owner this season offered me a $10 [Sergio] Mitre for a $1 [Yhency] Brazoban. How can you even counter to that offer?

Good question. My response to a ridiculous offer is usually to counter with an equally ridiculous offer tilted in my favor, and hope the message gets across. In many cases, it doesnt.

According to Mike Amato, the easiest way to sabotage trade discussions is to simply reject everything without comments. This concept ties back to the communication factor, which has so prevalently dominated this series of columns.

But Amato adds, aœequally as destructive, are outrageous counter offers. Offers not made in good faith signal to others that there is no chance of a deal here. Oops, so much for my theory about ridiculous counter offers to ridiculous offers.

Patrick Quinn of Bethlehem, Pa., a Project Leader at Tucscon, Az.-based Baseball Info Solutions, thinks that there are few things that can grind a negotiation to a halt.

In fact, he says, Only a lack of response from a trading partner or an absolute decline can stop a trade discussion.

I guess he hasn't had the pleasure of meeting some of the members of my league.

In two weeks we'll conclude our Trading Practices series with some anecdotes of bad trading experiences as told to us by our respondents.
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Trading Practices, Volume Six

Time to wrap up our six-part series on Trading Practices this week. Once again, we'd like to thank everyone who participated in the study for their time and effort. For the final part, we asked our respondents about any anecdotes of bad trading experience that left them deciding to never deal with a particular owner again. Here's what they came up with.

Thomas Edward Ruddick talked about how even if he's faced with horrible offers, he maintains that he will not cut that person off of his potential trading partner list.

His advice: NEVER decide to refuse a deal with a particular owner. The rip-off who's been trying to get Brian Roberts for Sean Casey might come back later with a decent offer, or even one that's in your advantage. Respond to the deal, not the person.

That's some very level-headed advice, and a creed we could all learn from.

Brian Walton had a couple of stories to share:

Two colluding owners made a series of single-player trades. While few of them stood out individually, since every one was in favor of Team A, in aggregate, Team B was clearly tipping the scales in the favor of Team A, he writes. A good constitution and strong commissioner are needed to nip that kind of foolishness in the bud, Walton advises.

as that's pretty bad. But they're doing wonderful things in the way of torture with dentist drills these days. You might want to add that to your league constitution with owners like that.

In another case, Walton adds, as the night transactions were due, an owner and I agreed to a trade via phone. I e-mailed the commish, copying my trade partner. The next day, after all the roster changes were made and entered, including the free agent moves as a result of the trade, the other owner asked to reverse the deal. Fortunately, the commissioner turned him down.

That's a good thing. I wonder if they have instituted capital punishment in the state in which that owner lives?

David Case of Baltimore/Silver Spring, talked about one episode where he threw out an offer that seemed reasonable (Mark Buerhle for one of Alfonso Soriano, Brian Roberts, Gary Sheffield or Hank Blalock). The team he was pitching was obviously very strong in the hitting categories, but relatively weak in the pitching categories. I get summarily rebuffed (I like Buehrle, but I'm not giving up all my offense for him),a Case says is what happened.

Then I know no deal is in the offing. Then the guy comes back with [Erubiel] Durazo and [Matt] Stairs and explains to me how good this deal would be for me (Think of all the home runs!!! And by the way, I want [Shea] Hillenbrand back from you to fill my position vacancy.) Enough said.

Case's response to this is fair and cautiously optimistic.

I don't think me and this guy will be dealing any time soon. But I won't ever rule out trading with him in the future, that wouldn't make any sense. If there's a guy who won't make any fair deals, that's fine because I won't make any unfair ones as I don't have to worry about this guy because I control what I do. If he suddenly comes up with a deal that seems reasonable, I take my own advice (don't take any of these negotiations personally) and open discussions once more. It's not likely to work out, but it's always fun to try.

John Dunfee also takes a very optimistic stance in this type of situation.

I've had numerous trade partners that I don't like dealing with, but I've never cut off dealing with anyone, he says. If you want to get the best deals possible, you've got to be willing/able to deal with everyone.

That's a pretty mature attitude, so, naturally, I can't relate.

Jeff Cooper of Houston says he doesn't have a specific anecdote to share, but I've reached a point in one league with owners that just won't counter offer, make offers, or return calls/e-mails, where I just wont trade with these guys unless they sweeten any deal just for past transgressions.

But don't worry, I'm sure he's not holding a grudge against those owners.

Mike Amato learned a valuable lesson from a bad trading experience.

Last season I made an offer for [Magglio] Ordonez. Foolishly, I let the offer sit (because the owner was notoriously slow). The day Ordonez became injured and it became clear he would be out for an indefinite period of time, that owner accepted the trade. Certainly it was his right to do so, since I had left the trade offer sitting there. But from my end, it showed a malice which makes me hesitant to make offers in the future.

This highlights something we covered in an earlier column of this series, namely, that it is almost prudent in some cases to date-stamp your offers with an expiration date. Adding something to the effect of This offer good until Thursday could nip the problem Amato encountered in the bud.

Live and learn.

Bethlehem, Pa. Patrick Quinn of Baseball Info Solutions, says he doesn't have any particular stories to share, but is Not getting replies makes me much less likely to create an initial offer. And if I thought a finished deal was done with a lie or an omission of injury information, I would be just more careful with that person in the future. Nevertheless, I have never said never to dealing with any owner in my 21 years playing fantasy baseball.

And there you have some parting words of wisdom: never say never.

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It all starts tonight The Dallas Mavericks versus The Miami Heat! Are you ready? The Mavs have been around for 26 years and this is their time to Shine!!

What do you think? Who should win?
You cant stop me! You just cant do it.
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So after Sun. nights game The Mavs are pissed, and rightfully so. Dirk was fined $5,000 for kicking the B-ball, and Mark Cuban may recieve even more fines for yelling at the refs dismall performance in Miami. There truly was three teams playing in the AAA and unfortunately it was more like a handicap match than a b-ball Finals. If the reffing continues in Big D expect to see the Blood of refs running freely.

You cant stop me! You just cant do it.
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