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Can cans LFC for Juvo
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Topic Started: Feb 7 2018, 11:52 AM (717 Views)
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ThePenkethPedant
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Feb 8 2018, 11:25 PM
Post #51
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Obviously; but when Richie and others criticized our 'management' of them, you were at pains to point out that it wasn't really possible to do so - with which I agree, incidentally. Which substantiates the opinion I expressed, I suppose, despite the counter-possibility of ourselves acquiring out-of-contract players - in any case, much, most probably, of the benefit that way,from not having to pay a fee, can be lost due to the player and agent cashing in, as McManaman did and most likely Can will do. Juventus won't gain too much, but the player and agent will. So both clubs miss out to some degree, not so the player/agent. Hence my comment...
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ThePenkethPedant
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Feb 8 2018, 11:27 PM
Post #52
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- Camelot
- Feb 8 2018, 11:02 PM
- ThePenkethPedant
- Feb 8 2018, 09:03 PM
- Camelot
- Feb 8 2018, 02:24 PM
- ThePenkethPedant
- Feb 7 2018, 11:28 PM
I reckon the only way to keep 'want away' players at a club is to employ gangsters to threaten them and their families with the direst of consequences should they persist in that attitude. Couple of snags: the players are rich enough to buy off the mobsters themselves and pay them in turn to threaten the club's officials, and (2) word would get around and few players would want to join a club with such 'enforcers' lying in wait... 'Bosman ' is the worst thing that has ever happened to our football scene, and the best thing ever for players and agents...
'Bosmans' are a fact of life and need to be managed as such. If they result in a player leaving because he can get a better deal elsewhere, when a contract extension is turned down, when the terms are considered the best that the club can offer based on their valuation of the player, I don't see that the club can do more and still behave responsibly. Paying excessively doesn't look like the answer to me. 'Bosmans' in general can cut both ways. In Can's case, there will be a loss if he leaves. (More on that later). The other side of the coin is that there are opportunities to buy players from other clubs who are also running down their contracts. If there is a challenge to our club's management, perhaps it is in failing to acquire one of those other impending 'Bosmans' such as Goretzka. In the past we have signed a number of players on 'Bosmans', although at the moment I would be hard pushed to remember one who was of pivotal importance during his tenure. Maybe Titi Camara for a short time. Frustrations are understandable when a good player leaves on a 'Bosman', but they don't seem to matter to me as much as some people think. Neither Coutinho nor Suarez were on 'Bosmans', but they prised themselves a way out of their contracts anyway to join the club they desired. There is a lot of bile being spilled about this situation. Yet it is not yet clear to me that his departure is certain. A lot of supporters are reacting to the recent media stories that 'an agent' has told the media that Can has agreed to sign for Juventus. In the first place, the agent quoted isn't even Can's agent. In the second place, an 'agreement' that has not been signed is no agreement at all. If it is true, why hasn't Juventus done the obvious thing and made an announcement to that effect? There is no reason for them to keep it secret. I'm sure if our club had pulled off a coup of this magnitude they would hold a news conference pretty quickly. I'm not saying that Can will stay with our club, but there does seem to be something lacking in the offers from other clubs, otherwise the deal would already have been done.
Tell me about it.. Oh,yes, you have, thank you,Cam:A tutorial on Bosman - although I was simply making an observation, which I stand by...
Well, you made your feelings very clear on 'Bosmans'. I'm not so wild about them myself, to tell the truth. Mostly when our club is victimised. I'm much more amenable when an opportunity arises to pick up a good player without having to pay a big transfer fee. However, as I pointed out earlier, they are a fact of life and have to be managed. We will get over Can's departure, should he leave, and move on, as with McManaman and Owen. Dealing with the world as it is, rather than as I would like it to be. My post above is in reply...
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Hollywood
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Feb 9 2018, 03:13 AM
Post #53
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- ThePenkethPedant
- Feb 8 2018, 11:25 PM
Obviously; but when Richie and others criticized our 'management' of them, you were at pains to point out that it wasn't really possible to do so - with which I agree, incidentally. Which substantiates the opinion I expressed, I suppose, despite the counter-possibility of ourselves acquiring out-of-contract players - in any case, much, most probably, of the benefit that way,from not having to pay a fee, can be lost due to the player and agent cashing in, as McManaman did and most likely Can will do. Juventus won't gain too much, but the player and agent will. So both clubs miss out to some degree, not so the player/agent. Hence my comment... Any club would surely gain by not having to pay a fee mooted to be around 40-50 million in today's market. That gain would be offset by the salary demand made by the player.
Essentially, Can is up for grabs, and the best offer. Anywhere but Liverpool, it would appear.
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Platform 2015 "parks, if i want to say anything constructive i wont use this forum mate."
A Classic Kop Talk Posting
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John_Boy
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Feb 9 2018, 09:35 AM
Post #54
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It's the nature of the game. It's been happening for many many years.... Just getting worse.
Trevor Francis tracksuits from a guy in sheppards bush Bush Bush Bush Bush Bush...
The sooner the money dries up in the game... The better. Hope the bubble bursts soon.
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The ring master says the circus show must go on! 🎪
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DickWhiteog
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Feb 9 2018, 11:31 AM
Post #55
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- John_Boy
- Feb 9 2018, 09:35 AM
It's the nature of the game. It's been happening for many many years.... Just getting worse.
Trevor Francis tracksuits from a guy in sheppards bush Bush Bush Bush Bush Bush...
The sooner the money dries up in the game... The better. Hope the bubble bursts soon. The bubble is only in need of a pr ick , any suggestions.
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Veritas Vos Liberabit - John 8:32 for all those affected by Hillsborough
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BnB
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Feb 9 2018, 12:04 PM
Post #56
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Super Red
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- DickWhiteog
- Feb 9 2018, 11:31 AM
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- Feb 9 2018, 09:35 AM
It's the nature of the game. It's been happening for many many years.... Just getting worse.
Trevor Francis tracksuits from a guy in sheppards bush Bush Bush Bush Bush Bush...
The sooner the money dries up in the game... The better. Hope the bubble bursts soon.
The bubble is only in need of a pr ick , any suggestions. According to recent figures, worldwide figures for watching the PL has gone up 9%. I believe NA and Asia are the two areas where it has increased.
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Camelot
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Feb 9 2018, 04:11 PM
Post #57
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- DickWhiteog
- Feb 8 2018, 07:55 PM
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- Camelot
- Feb 8 2018, 02:41 PM
- BnB
- Feb 8 2018, 02:35 PM
- cactusjon
- Feb 8 2018, 11:51 AM
- chalky the red
- Feb 8 2018, 11:36 AM
- DickWhiteog
- Feb 7 2018, 11:00 PM
- Hollywood
- Feb 7 2018, 10:32 PM
- DickWhiteog
- Feb 7 2018, 08:52 PM
So its not a problem to let our players F*ck off for nowt - I have heard it all now.
With the acceptance of such low standards at our football club its no surprise the owners feel they can do whatever they like without being answerable.
Mind I suppose they are the owners and can basically do anything and tell us to swivel on it.
Football is F*cked.
Please articulate for us all how FSG might have altered the situation outside offering Can a decent contract extension in 2017. Do you have insider knowledge as to the terms of our offer to Can? Does anyone? I thought not. You are now suggesting that one of Klopps key players is being allowed to leave, with no intervention from the club, so that FSG can what..... save a bit of cash. Really? Likewise, you would have us believe we just let Phil leave so the club could cash in. Bit of booty to blow on a yacht! The fact of the matter is the club upped Phils wages, as they did with Suarez, and both players still wanted to fuck off. Just as Can clearly wants to fuck off. Its not to buy yachts or baseball players. These players just wanted off to the bright lights of Spain. Bit of sun and sand.
It s hard work really - let me try and explain how I see it - A decent set of club managers would protect their investment (I.e Can) . This guy whether you like him or not is worth 20m plus in todays market possibly 50m plus being a German International of young age and plenty of years left on the clock. Our club should have signed him up well before he was in the position to walk away . The fact they did not means that Can stitched them up. So a thick footballer has run rings around our club management costing them potentially 20-50m pounds . If anyone sees a positive in this then I am at a loss to discuss it any further . It is a disastrous piece of business which ever way I look at it. Signing him up for a contract extension and then selling him off would surely have been a far better option. Its obvious we have been shafted because Klopp was even making him captain in a desperate attempt to get him to stay. Maybe the club will give him a late offer he cannot refuse and then sell him , just to prove that they are the keen , ruthless businessmen they should be. Again Hols , if you do not see anything wrong with this situation I am happy for you !! keep smoking whatever it is .
Correct me if I'm wrong ,, but wasn't can refusing to sign a contract extension? Are you suggesting , we should offer can , a contract over and above what the club think he is worth ?
When a player is adamant he is leaving there is little the club can do to avoid criticism. We had three options: 1) - Offer him a contract above what he's worth - "Look at the idiots paying him that, are they mad?" 2) - Sell him with 12 months/6 months to go - "FFS, why are we selling him for that price, he's worth far more than that?" 3) - Let him run out his contract and replace in the summer - "We are run by idiots, why didn't they just pay him what he asked for is it really that hard"? Personally I think we should just have a rule in the club saying that if a player won't renew the contract with 18 months to go, we get rid. Of course, you'll then have people arguing that the club are just cashing in........
I agree we should have sold him last summer, if he didn't want to go, then tell him to either sign or play in the u23. He would lose his place in the German NT and miss out on going to the WC.
Ah, another breach of the rules. Just another potential action that would be considered punitive, guaranteed to get the club hauled before a tribunal and get the players' association hopping mad and looking for retribution.
Leaving a player out of your side is a simple action for the Manager . He would maybe only have to explain to his bosses why. How LFC is run in terms of picking a team has nothing whatsoever to do with the PFA or any other outside body , unless they are picking an understrength team , when the FA may get involved. If a player is not chosen to play that's it - end of , no reason has to be given by the manager , other than maybe saying he is not selected for the team , and its his decision . Quite simple really and it is done with a degree of regularity - I would Cite Markovic as a fine example this season . QED.
There are various reasons why a player can be dropped, benched, or whatever. But I feel sure that if a player is disciplined for not signing an extension to his contract, not only do I believe it would be against the EFL's own rules, but it would end up in the courts really fast. An employer can't coerce an employee into signing a contract using such means.
You do fear the lawyers Cammy don't you. I would not expect a Club to be stupid enough to tell a player they were disciplining him for not signing an extension. Quite simply he would be "dropped" bearing in mind the manager is building a team and as the player is not committing himself to that team then there can be no problem leaving him out . At which point said player has to find another club , particularly in a WC year . The fact our club has failed to do something , either get a signature or sell IMHO is an abject failing . That is my opinion. I really think people are of the opinion players hold all the cards . To a degree they do , but they do not pick the teams and as such can be "accommodated" or "frozen out" . Again I would point at Markovic. Regarding your last line 'Markovic' comment, the lad was given lots of chances to prove himself and he hasn't worked out. He deserved to be dropped and farmed out, and the club is operating entirely within the rules and the spirit behind them. Can really isn't in the same category, because he has proven himself at the level necessary to hold a regular place. His demotion to the bench this season or previous seasons, while fit, would have drawn the inevitable conclusion while the club was still trying to sign him to a new contract. If Can exercises his option to sign with another club, Klopp would be within his rights to play him or not. If he were to choose not to play him, he has a ready made excuse, because he could claim to be giving another player more playing time in order to give him the necessary experience for the future. Even then, the Germany WC coach might have something to say, because it looks as though Can will be a candidate for their WC squad.
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Aussiepool
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Feb 9 2018, 04:58 PM
Post #58
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Klopp has no options but to continue playing Can through this Season regardless if he has signed a pre contract with Juve or not. He occupies one the two central mid positions and his rivals are hardly the players one can depend on to be always fit and perform at high standards. Henderson, Milner and Wijnaldum.
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DickWhiteog
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Feb 9 2018, 10:05 PM
Post #59
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- Camelot
- Feb 9 2018, 04:11 PM
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- BnB
- Feb 8 2018, 02:35 PM
- cactusjon
- Feb 8 2018, 11:51 AM
- chalky the red
- Feb 8 2018, 11:36 AM
- DickWhiteog
- Feb 7 2018, 11:00 PM
- Hollywood
- Feb 7 2018, 10:32 PM
- DickWhiteog
- Feb 7 2018, 08:52 PM
So its not a problem to let our players F*ck off for nowt - I have heard it all now.
With the acceptance of such low standards at our football club its no surprise the owners feel they can do whatever they like without being answerable.
Mind I suppose they are the owners and can basically do anything and tell us to swivel on it.
Football is F*cked.
Please articulate for us all how FSG might have altered the situation outside offering Can a decent contract extension in 2017. Do you have insider knowledge as to the terms of our offer to Can? Does anyone? I thought not. You are now suggesting that one of Klopps key players is being allowed to leave, with no intervention from the club, so that FSG can what..... save a bit of cash. Really? Likewise, you would have us believe we just let Phil leave so the club could cash in. Bit of booty to blow on a yacht! The fact of the matter is the club upped Phils wages, as they did with Suarez, and both players still wanted to fuck off. Just as Can clearly wants to fuck off. Its not to buy yachts or baseball players. These players just wanted off to the bright lights of Spain. Bit of sun and sand.
It s hard work really - let me try and explain how I see it - A decent set of club managers would protect their investment (I.e Can) . This guy whether you like him or not is worth 20m plus in todays market possibly 50m plus being a German International of young age and plenty of years left on the clock. Our club should have signed him up well before he was in the position to walk away . The fact they did not means that Can stitched them up. So a thick footballer has run rings around our club management costing them potentially 20-50m pounds . If anyone sees a positive in this then I am at a loss to discuss it any further . It is a disastrous piece of business which ever way I look at it. Signing him up for a contract extension and then selling him off would surely have been a far better option. Its obvious we have been shafted because Klopp was even making him captain in a desperate attempt to get him to stay. Maybe the club will give him a late offer he cannot refuse and then sell him , just to prove that they are the keen , ruthless businessmen they should be. Again Hols , if you do not see anything wrong with this situation I am happy for you !! keep smoking whatever it is .
Correct me if I'm wrong ,, but wasn't can refusing to sign a contract extension? Are you suggesting , we should offer can , a contract over and above what the club think he is worth ?
When a player is adamant he is leaving there is little the club can do to avoid criticism. We had three options: 1) - Offer him a contract above what he's worth - "Look at the idiots paying him that, are they mad?" 2) - Sell him with 12 months/6 months to go - "FFS, why are we selling him for that price, he's worth far more than that?" 3) - Let him run out his contract and replace in the summer - "We are run by idiots, why didn't they just pay him what he asked for is it really that hard"? Personally I think we should just have a rule in the club saying that if a player won't renew the contract with 18 months to go, we get rid. Of course, you'll then have people arguing that the club are just cashing in........
I agree we should have sold him last summer, if he didn't want to go, then tell him to either sign or play in the u23. He would lose his place in the German NT and miss out on going to the WC.
Ah, another breach of the rules. Just another potential action that would be considered punitive, guaranteed to get the club hauled before a tribunal and get the players' association hopping mad and looking for retribution.
Leaving a player out of your side is a simple action for the Manager . He would maybe only have to explain to his bosses why. How LFC is run in terms of picking a team has nothing whatsoever to do with the PFA or any other outside body , unless they are picking an understrength team , when the FA may get involved. If a player is not chosen to play that's it - end of , no reason has to be given by the manager , other than maybe saying he is not selected for the team , and its his decision . Quite simple really and it is done with a degree of regularity - I would Cite Markovic as a fine example this season . QED.
There are various reasons why a player can be dropped, benched, or whatever. But I feel sure that if a player is disciplined for not signing an extension to his contract, not only do I believe it would be against the EFL's own rules, but it would end up in the courts really fast. An employer can't coerce an employee into signing a contract using such means.
You do fear the lawyers Cammy don't you. I would not expect a Club to be stupid enough to tell a player they were disciplining him for not signing an extension. Quite simply he would be "dropped" bearing in mind the manager is building a team and as the player is not committing himself to that team then there can be no problem leaving him out . At which point said player has to find another club , particularly in a WC year . The fact our club has failed to do something , either get a signature or sell IMHO is an abject failing . That is my opinion. I really think people are of the opinion players hold all the cards . To a degree they do , but they do not pick the teams and as such can be "accommodated" or "frozen out" . Again I would point at Markovic.
Regarding your last line 'Markovic' comment, the lad was given lots of chances to prove himself and he hasn't worked out. He deserved to be dropped and farmed out, and the club is operating entirely within the rules and the spirit behind them. Can really isn't in the same category, because he has proven himself at the level necessary to hold a regular place. His demotion to the bench this season or previous seasons, while fit, would have drawn the inevitable conclusion while the club was still trying to sign him to a new contract. If Can exercises his option to sign with another club, Klopp would be within his rights to play him or not. If he were to choose not to play him, he has a ready made excuse, because he could claim to be giving another player more playing time in order to give him the necessary experience for the future. Even then, the Germany WC coach might have something to say, because it looks as though Can will be a candidate for their WC squad. LFC have got nothing to do with the German WC squad , they have no say or control over LFC policy and visa versa .
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Veritas Vos Liberabit - John 8:32 for all those affected by Hillsborough
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fredflunk
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Feb 9 2018, 10:15 PM
Post #60
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Supreme Red
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- Rushiestache
- Feb 8 2018, 12:29 PM
Never make him captain again.. it's a disgrace.. one decision I totally disagree with Klopp on .. making the likes of him and Coutinho captain.. leaves us looking like fookin' idiots
channeling your inner crofty
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http://static.themetapicture.com/media/fun...ps-Xmen-art.jpg
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Rushiestache
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Feb 9 2018, 10:22 PM
Post #61
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- fredflunk
- Feb 9 2018, 10:15 PM
- Rushiestache
- Feb 8 2018, 12:29 PM
Never make him captain again.. it's a disgrace.. one decision I totally disagree with Klopp on .. making the likes of him and Coutinho captain.. leaves us looking like fookin' idiots
channeling your inner crofty You are missing him, aren't you flunklad ?
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fredflunk
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Feb 9 2018, 10:29 PM
Post #62
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Supreme Red
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- Feb 8 2018, 11:36 AM
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- Hollywood
- Feb 7 2018, 10:32 PM
- DickWhiteog
- Feb 7 2018, 08:52 PM
So its not a problem to let our players F*ck off for nowt - I have heard it all now.
With the acceptance of such low standards at our football club its no surprise the owners feel they can do whatever they like without being answerable.
Mind I suppose they are the owners and can basically do anything and tell us to swivel on it.
Football is F*cked.
Please articulate for us all how FSG might have altered the situation outside offering Can a decent contract extension in 2017. Do you have insider knowledge as to the terms of our offer to Can? Does anyone? I thought not. You are now suggesting that one of Klopps key players is being allowed to leave, with no intervention from the club, so that FSG can what..... save a bit of cash. Really? Likewise, you would have us believe we just let Phil leave so the club could cash in. Bit of booty to blow on a yacht! The fact of the matter is the club upped Phils wages, as they did with Suarez, and both players still wanted to fuck off. Just as Can clearly wants to fuck off. Its not to buy yachts or baseball players. These players just wanted off to the bright lights of Spain. Bit of sun and sand.
It s hard work really - let me try and explain how I see it - A decent set of club managers would protect their investment (I.e Can) . This guy whether you like him or not is worth 20m plus in todays market possibly 50m plus being a German International of young age and plenty of years left on the clock. Our club should have signed him up well before he was in the position to walk away . The fact they did not means that Can stitched them up. So a thick footballer has run rings around our club management costing them potentially 20-50m pounds . If anyone sees a positive in this then I am at a loss to discuss it any further . It is a disastrous piece of business which ever way I look at it. Signing him up for a contract extension and then selling him off would surely have been a far better option. Its obvious we have been shafted because Klopp was even making him captain in a desperate attempt to get him to stay. Maybe the club will give him a late offer he cannot refuse and then sell him , just to prove that they are the keen , ruthless businessmen they should be. Again Hols , if you do not see anything wrong with this situation I am happy for you !! keep smoking whatever it is .
Correct me if I'm wrong ,, but wasn't can refusing to sign a contract extension? Are you suggesting , we should offer can , a contract over and above what the club think he is worth ?
When a player is adamant he is leaving there is little the club can do to avoid criticism. We had three options: 1) - Offer him a contract above what he's worth - "Look at the idiots paying him that, are they mad?" 2) - Sell him with 12 months/6 months to go - "FFS, why are we selling him for that price, he's worth far more than that?" 3) - Let him run out his contract and replace in the summer - "We are run by idiots, why didn't they just pay him what he asked for is it really that hard"? Personally I think we should just have a rule in the club saying that if a player won't renew the contract with 18 months to go, we get rid. Of course, you'll then have people arguing that the club are just cashing in........
I agree we should have sold him last summer, if he didn't want to go, then tell him to either sign or play in the u23. He would lose his place in the German NT and miss out on going to the WC.
Ah, another breach of the rules. Just another potential action that would be considered punitive, guaranteed to get the club hauled before a tribunal and get the players' association hopping mad and looking for retribution.
Leaving a player out of your side is a simple action for the Manager . He would maybe only have to explain to his bosses why. How LFC is run in terms of picking a team has nothing whatsoever to do with the PFA or any other outside body , unless they are picking an understrength team , when the FA may get involved. If a player is not chosen to play that's it - end of , no reason has to be given by the manager , other than maybe saying he is not selected for the team , and its his decision . Quite simple really and it is done with a degree of regularity - I would Cite Markovic as a fine example this season . QED.
There are various reasons why a player can be dropped, benched, or whatever. But I feel sure that if a player is disciplined for not signing an extension to his contract, not only do I believe it would be against the EFL's own rules, but it would end up in the courts really fast. An employer can't coerce an employee into signing a contract using such means.
You do fear the lawyers Cammy don't you. I would not expect a Club to be stupid enough to tell a player they were disciplining him for not signing an extension. Quite simply he would be "dropped" bearing in mind the manager is building a team and as the player is not committing himself to that team then there can be no problem leaving him out . At which point said player has to find another club , particularly in a WC year . The fact our club has failed to do something , either get a signature or sell IMHO is an abject failing . That is my opinion. I really think people are of the opinion players hold all the cards . To a degree they do , but they do not pick the teams and as such can be "accommodated" or "frozen out" . Again I would point at Markovic.
'You do fear the lawyers Cammy don't you.' I'm not afraid, particularly, just wary of their way with words, particularly in front of a judge or quasi-judge, e.g. a tribunal. 'I would not expect a Club to be stupid enough to tell a player they were disciplining him for not signing an extension.' My comment was largely a response to BnB, in which he was proposing exactly that. The fact that it would be largely verbal makes no difference. The situation has elements of a constructed dismissal by an employer. A player gets sidelined whereas he was mostly an automatic selection prior to turning down a proposed contract extension, what conclusion would you draw? What outcome would you expect when the player's lawyer is addressing the judge/tribunal? The timing can't help but be damaging. The fact is, as you have already mentioned, the player holds the cards on 'Bosmans'. cammy, majority of your posts seem to concern " defending players' positions " rather than their performances on the pitch
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DickWhiteog
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Feb 9 2018, 10:43 PM
Post #63
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I wish Moreno could defend his position. Or even one of our goalkeepers.
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Veritas Vos Liberabit - John 8:32 for all those affected by Hillsborough
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Aussiepool
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Feb 10 2018, 01:15 AM
Post #64
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Exactly. We’re too busy being apologists for certain mediocre players ( disguised as super loyal fans ) like seriously who would be sad other than Can , to see Moreno, Mignolet and Lovren also leave in the Summer . I certainly wouldn’t. How many total games and Seasons do these players need and after countless of costly game errors to just say “ you know , there just rubbish “ and move on.
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chalky the red
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Feb 10 2018, 01:53 PM
Post #65
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- Aussiepool
- Feb 10 2018, 01:15 AM
Exactly. We’re too busy being apologists for certain mediocre players ( disguised as super loyal fans ) like seriously who would be sad other than Can , to see Moreno, Mignolet and Lovren also leave in the Summer . I certainly wouldn’t. How many total games and Seasons do these players need and after countless of costly game errors to just say “ you know , there just rubbish “ and move on. Would depend on who replaced them 😀
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"There are no real gods , only those that believe gods are real" Unknown
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Camelot
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Feb 10 2018, 10:35 PM
Post #66
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- fredflunk
- Feb 9 2018, 10:29 PM
- Camelot
- Feb 8 2018, 11:22 PM
- DickWhiteog
- Feb 8 2018, 07:55 PM
- Camelot
- Feb 8 2018, 06:31 PM
- DickWhiteog
- Feb 8 2018, 05:31 PM
- Camelot
- Feb 8 2018, 02:41 PM
- BnB
- Feb 8 2018, 02:35 PM
- cactusjon
- Feb 8 2018, 11:51 AM
- chalky the red
- Feb 8 2018, 11:36 AM
- DickWhiteog
- Feb 7 2018, 11:00 PM
- Hollywood
- Feb 7 2018, 10:32 PM
- DickWhiteog
- Feb 7 2018, 08:52 PM
So its not a problem to let our players F*ck off for nowt - I have heard it all now.
With the acceptance of such low standards at our football club its no surprise the owners feel they can do whatever they like without being answerable.
Mind I suppose they are the owners and can basically do anything and tell us to swivel on it.
Football is F*cked.
Please articulate for us all how FSG might have altered the situation outside offering Can a decent contract extension in 2017. Do you have insider knowledge as to the terms of our offer to Can? Does anyone? I thought not. You are now suggesting that one of Klopps key players is being allowed to leave, with no intervention from the club, so that FSG can what..... save a bit of cash. Really? Likewise, you would have us believe we just let Phil leave so the club could cash in. Bit of booty to blow on a yacht! The fact of the matter is the club upped Phils wages, as they did with Suarez, and both players still wanted to fuck off. Just as Can clearly wants to fuck off. Its not to buy yachts or baseball players. These players just wanted off to the bright lights of Spain. Bit of sun and sand.
It s hard work really - let me try and explain how I see it - A decent set of club managers would protect their investment (I.e Can) . This guy whether you like him or not is worth 20m plus in todays market possibly 50m plus being a German International of young age and plenty of years left on the clock. Our club should have signed him up well before he was in the position to walk away . The fact they did not means that Can stitched them up. So a thick footballer has run rings around our club management costing them potentially 20-50m pounds . If anyone sees a positive in this then I am at a loss to discuss it any further . It is a disastrous piece of business which ever way I look at it. Signing him up for a contract extension and then selling him off would surely have been a far better option. Its obvious we have been shafted because Klopp was even making him captain in a desperate attempt to get him to stay. Maybe the club will give him a late offer he cannot refuse and then sell him , just to prove that they are the keen , ruthless businessmen they should be. Again Hols , if you do not see anything wrong with this situation I am happy for you !! keep smoking whatever it is .
Correct me if I'm wrong ,, but wasn't can refusing to sign a contract extension? Are you suggesting , we should offer can , a contract over and above what the club think he is worth ?
When a player is adamant he is leaving there is little the club can do to avoid criticism. We had three options: 1) - Offer him a contract above what he's worth - "Look at the idiots paying him that, are they mad?" 2) - Sell him with 12 months/6 months to go - "FFS, why are we selling him for that price, he's worth far more than that?" 3) - Let him run out his contract and replace in the summer - "We are run by idiots, why didn't they just pay him what he asked for is it really that hard"? Personally I think we should just have a rule in the club saying that if a player won't renew the contract with 18 months to go, we get rid. Of course, you'll then have people arguing that the club are just cashing in........
I agree we should have sold him last summer, if he didn't want to go, then tell him to either sign or play in the u23. He would lose his place in the German NT and miss out on going to the WC.
Ah, another breach of the rules. Just another potential action that would be considered punitive, guaranteed to get the club hauled before a tribunal and get the players' association hopping mad and looking for retribution.
Leaving a player out of your side is a simple action for the Manager . He would maybe only have to explain to his bosses why. How LFC is run in terms of picking a team has nothing whatsoever to do with the PFA or any other outside body , unless they are picking an understrength team , when the FA may get involved. If a player is not chosen to play that's it - end of , no reason has to be given by the manager , other than maybe saying he is not selected for the team , and its his decision . Quite simple really and it is done with a degree of regularity - I would Cite Markovic as a fine example this season . QED.
There are various reasons why a player can be dropped, benched, or whatever. But I feel sure that if a player is disciplined for not signing an extension to his contract, not only do I believe it would be against the EFL's own rules, but it would end up in the courts really fast. An employer can't coerce an employee into signing a contract using such means.
You do fear the lawyers Cammy don't you. I would not expect a Club to be stupid enough to tell a player they were disciplining him for not signing an extension. Quite simply he would be "dropped" bearing in mind the manager is building a team and as the player is not committing himself to that team then there can be no problem leaving him out . At which point said player has to find another club , particularly in a WC year . The fact our club has failed to do something , either get a signature or sell IMHO is an abject failing . That is my opinion. I really think people are of the opinion players hold all the cards . To a degree they do , but they do not pick the teams and as such can be "accommodated" or "frozen out" . Again I would point at Markovic.
'You do fear the lawyers Cammy don't you.' I'm not afraid, particularly, just wary of their way with words, particularly in front of a judge or quasi-judge, e.g. a tribunal. 'I would not expect a Club to be stupid enough to tell a player they were disciplining him for not signing an extension.' My comment was largely a response to BnB, in which he was proposing exactly that. The fact that it would be largely verbal makes no difference. The situation has elements of a constructed dismissal by an employer. A player gets sidelined whereas he was mostly an automatic selection prior to turning down a proposed contract extension, what conclusion would you draw? What outcome would you expect when the player's lawyer is addressing the judge/tribunal? The timing can't help but be damaging. The fact is, as you have already mentioned, the player holds the cards on 'Bosmans'.
cammy, majority of your posts seem to concern " defending players' positions " rather than their performances on the pitch What's your point?
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Hollywood
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Feb 11 2018, 12:53 AM
Post #67
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- Aussiepool
- Feb 10 2018, 01:15 AM
Exactly. We’re too busy being apologists for certain mediocre players ( disguised as super loyal fans ) like seriously who would be sad other than Can , to see Moreno, Mignolet and Lovren also leave in the Summer . I certainly wouldn’t. How many total games and Seasons do these players need and after countless of costly game errors to just say “ you know , there just rubbish “ and move on. I don't have to be a super loyal fan to admit they each have played a part in us being in the top 4 in the league and in the Champions league OZ. Far from it in fact. If our team was shit, we would not be able to beat City, would we, with many of these players playing? Lost only 2 or 3 league matches. The fewest behind City. Moreno was having a decent season before he got injured. Robbo has likely been better, but Moreno was still playing well before injury. Our goalies are both crap, but here we are. 4th in the league. Lovrens, a catastrophy at times. 4th in the league. Matip ditto. Can up and down form. Wonder game against City.
My opinion is that these Liverpool players you list are not good enough, but I also think David Luis not good enough, Gary Neville not that great ever, the current Man City defence is entiirely shyte, but they were, or are, all on decent sides that won trophies, so they are somehow exempt from direct criticism like our players..
We do have very good/dependable players who elevate the levels of those around them..... Salah, Bobby, Mane, Hendo, VVD, Robbo, Gomez, TAA, Gino to name a few. A great manager IMHO in klopper.
It was suggested by fans today that winning cups would be better than nothing. We won our last major European cup with Traore, Dudek, Josemi, Smicer and Biscan in the squad. All considered shyte, and we all fucking moaned about them back then too.
Owners have changed. Managers have changed. Players have changed. Anfield has changed. Liverpool Fans still fucking moan. We are the world champions of moaning end excuses.
I reckon I have become a little immune to all the shit I hear from LFC fans complaining. We are what we are as a club. We are owned by FSG. We have looked better IMHO in the last 24 months than we have in about 15 years. So, yeah, its a good enough start, and at least pointed in the right direction booth on and off the pitch. I can see why it is not so for many, and appreciate that, but I am just sick of the same old same old whining.
Kop This is toxic with it. Find me a single post on this forum that does not have some negative comment on FSG associated with it, and I will find you a decent plot of swamp land in Florida.
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Platform 2015 "parks, if i want to say anything constructive i wont use this forum mate."
A Classic Kop Talk Posting
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ThePenkethPedant
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Feb 11 2018, 01:06 AM
Post #68
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If we were to win the Champions League this season I would be quite happy for posters on here to continue moaning about some of our players...and FSG as well for that matter...
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Hollywood
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Feb 11 2018, 01:08 AM
Post #69
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- ThePenkethPedant
- Feb 11 2018, 01:06 AM
If we were to win the Champions League this season I would be quite happy for posters on here to continue moaning about some of our players... I would be fucking made up. I'd stick it up their arses.
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Platform 2015 "parks, if i want to say anything constructive i wont use this forum mate."
A Classic Kop Talk Posting
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Red pippin
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Feb 11 2018, 01:13 AM
Post #70
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- Hollywood
- Feb 11 2018, 12:53 AM
- Aussiepool
- Feb 10 2018, 01:15 AM
Exactly. We’re too busy being apologists for certain mediocre players ( disguised as super loyal fans ) like seriously who would be sad other than Can , to see Moreno, Mignolet and Lovren also leave in the Summer . I certainly wouldn’t. How many total games and Seasons do these players need and after countless of costly game errors to just say “ you know , there just rubbish “ and move on.
I don't have to be a super loyal fan to admit they each have played a part in us being in the top 4 in the league and in the Champions league OZ. Far from it in fact. If our team was shit, we would not be able to beat City, would we, with many of these players playing? Lost only 2 or 3 league matches. The fewest behind City. Moreno was having a decent season before he got injured. Robbo has likely been better, but Moreno was still playing well before injury. Our goalies are both crap, but here we are. 4th in the league. Lovrens, a catastrophy at times. 4th in the league. Matip ditto. Can up and down form. Wonder game against City. My opinion is that these Liverpool players you list are not good enough, but I also think David Luis not good enough, Gary Neville not that great ever, the current Man City defence is entiirely shyte, but they were, or are, all on decent sides that won trophies, so they are somehow exempt from direct criticism like our players.. We do have very good/dependable players who elevate the levels of those around them..... Salah, Bobby, Mane, Hendo, VVD, Robbo, Gomez, TAA, Gino to name a few. A great manager IMHO in klopper. It was suggested by fans today that winning cups would be better than nothing. We won our last major European cup with Traore, Dudek, Josemi, Smicer and Biscan in the squad. All considered shyte, and we all fucking moaned about them back then too. Owners have changed. Managers have changed. Players have changed. Anfield has changed. Liverpool Fans still fucking moan. We are the world champions of moaning end excuses. I reckon I have become a little immune to all the shit I hear from LFC fans complaining. We are what we are as a club. We are owned by FSG. We have looked better IMHO in the last 24 months than we have in about 15 years. So, yeah, its a good enough start, and at least pointed in the right direction booth on and off the pitch. I can see why it is not so for many, and appreciate that, but I am just sick of the same old same old whining. Kop This is toxic with it. Find me a single post on this forum that does not have some negative comment on FSG associated with it, and I will find you a decent plot of swamp land in Florida. Traore got lots of Flack even though he was influential in us winning the C/L final with some superb interventions
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LFC the beating heart of my City.
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Hollywood
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Feb 11 2018, 01:24 AM
Post #71
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- Red pippin
- Feb 11 2018, 01:13 AM
- Hollywood
- Feb 11 2018, 12:53 AM
- Aussiepool
- Feb 10 2018, 01:15 AM
Exactly. We’re too busy being apologists for certain mediocre players ( disguised as super loyal fans ) like seriously who would be sad other than Can , to see Moreno, Mignolet and Lovren also leave in the Summer . I certainly wouldn’t. How many total games and Seasons do these players need and after countless of costly game errors to just say “ you know , there just rubbish “ and move on.
I don't have to be a super loyal fan to admit they each have played a part in us being in the top 4 in the league and in the Champions league OZ. Far from it in fact. If our team was shit, we would not be able to beat City, would we, with many of these players playing? Lost only 2 or 3 league matches. The fewest behind City. Moreno was having a decent season before he got injured. Robbo has likely been better, but Moreno was still playing well before injury. Our goalies are both crap, but here we are. 4th in the league. Lovrens, a catastrophy at times. 4th in the league. Matip ditto. Can up and down form. Wonder game against City. My opinion is that these Liverpool players you list are not good enough, but I also think David Luis not good enough, Gary Neville not that great ever, the current Man City defence is entiirely shyte, but they were, or are, all on decent sides that won trophies, so they are somehow exempt from direct criticism like our players.. We do have very good/dependable players who elevate the levels of those around them..... Salah, Bobby, Mane, Hendo, VVD, Robbo, Gomez, TAA, Gino to name a few. A great manager IMHO in klopper. It was suggested by fans today that winning cups would be better than nothing. We won our last major European cup with Traore, Dudek, Josemi, Smicer and Biscan in the squad. All considered shyte, and we all fucking moaned about them back then too. Owners have changed. Managers have changed. Players have changed. Anfield has changed. Liverpool Fans still fucking moan. We are the world champions of moaning end excuses. I reckon I have become a little immune to all the shit I hear from LFC fans complaining. We are what we are as a club. We are owned by FSG. We have looked better IMHO in the last 24 months than we have in about 15 years. So, yeah, its a good enough start, and at least pointed in the right direction booth on and off the pitch. I can see why it is not so for many, and appreciate that, but I am just sick of the same old same old whining. Kop This is toxic with it. Find me a single post on this forum that does not have some negative comment on FSG associated with it, and I will find you a decent plot of swamp land in Florida.
Traore got lots of Flack even though he was influential in us winning the C/L final with some superb interventions Still widely considered bunk by most fans, as were many on that squad. Benitez himself contrived to sell all but Carra and Gerrard from the Istanbul match day squad. Fortifying the position that it really was not a Benitez side that won it.
And from all the other stuff I mentioned, you picked out that Traore nugget. Did you honestly think him decent?
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Platform 2015 "parks, if i want to say anything constructive i wont use this forum mate."
A Classic Kop Talk Posting
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ThePenkethPedant
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Feb 11 2018, 01:33 AM
Post #72
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Remember Phil Babb...?
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Hollywood
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Feb 11 2018, 03:23 AM
Post #73
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- Aussiepool
- Feb 9 2018, 04:58 PM
Klopp has no options but to continue playing Can through this Season regardless if he has signed a pre contract with Juve or not. He occupies one the two central mid positions and his rivals are hardly the players one can depend on to be always fit and perform at high standards. Henderson, Milner and Wijnaldum. Why cut off your nose to spite your face? Use Can like he's using us.
Keita comes in the summer, when we can all have a right piss ant about the new warchest.
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Platform 2015 "parks, if i want to say anything constructive i wont use this forum mate."
A Classic Kop Talk Posting
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Hollywood
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Feb 11 2018, 03:24 AM
Post #74
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- ThePenkethPedant
- Feb 11 2018, 01:33 AM
Remember Phil Babb...? Did you mean to preface that with... Speaking of bunk?
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Platform 2015 "parks, if i want to say anything constructive i wont use this forum mate."
A Classic Kop Talk Posting
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Aussiepool
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Feb 11 2018, 05:24 AM
Post #75
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Lovren , Mingnolet Moreno we’re both shyte before Klopp got here , had rubbish personal Seasons when the team was nowhere near the top 4 so why would they all of a sudden be useful players and integral part of Liverpool being in the top 4 now ? More like in spite of them but thankfully we have a good manager and a front 3 that scores plenty of goals.
Now assuming , Liverpool had a standout GK, a fantastic LB and CB. Things might be even better you know. Van Djik was bought for £ 75 mil , why is that from the moment , Lovren and average Matip got the team there last year as well
I can also think of 20 LBs better playing in England during that 04-05 Season where Djimi Traore became a CL winner , but so what ?
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