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The Reset - I and II
Topic Started: Sep 20 2009, 01:36 AM (926 Views)
Locke
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Responding to each in turn: (and if you respond to me, please quote so I can follow the thread of conversation. xD I leave for five hours and tons of posts appear.)

Rocks: We could start over, but as Scathach and I have learned, that doesn't solve every problem - sometimes it exacerbates rather than alleviates. Having a larger core group - the twenty or so that do exist, could work in our favour, but in turn, we lose the the 'history' backing us; that's extremely important in the way the Internet works. Sites with 10 years of history are less likely to fail/more resistant to change than sites with three.

I do, however, like Reaver's idea - to either re-establish the website under the same name and possibly same scheme, but taking out the extras no one ever uses; or obliterate the huge number of inactive posters we have, taking the site down to the rough core of 20-30 + the irregular 40-50 extra. Alternatively, we could combine Rocks' and Revear's ideas - completely changing the website from the ground up, using TUL's history to push it forward. Essentially, the culmination of Argenate's idea. Comments on this would be appreciated.

To my sporadically-faithful (don't worry, it's not an insult) Teaching Assistant: Beautifully written, and losing TUL is what I want to do least. Nuking the site is pretty radical - and it's going to be tough to decide whether or not we need to push that hard. And thanks for the kudos - I just want to get it started again, if we can, at some point in the distant future.

As to Scathach's criticism of the way the roleplays worked: without the dedication of more mature people, it's difficult to keep track of that. Perhaps, if the time rolls around in a right way, I can start a karma system of sorts, where any member can add to or subtract from another member's points once a day. Lower points = less likely people will be willing to roleplay with you. More points = more likely people will know you can work with long-term roleplays.

I'll work up another post to this later tonight, but I have a seminar that can't be missed. Talk to you guys in a while!


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Scathach
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I would definitely support cutting all the dead wood out of the Members list. Even if you leave in anyone who actually ever posted once, you'll have a much less frightening-to-the-newbie number.
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Locke
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Since everyone seems to agree on that idea, we can work that into the process. What about a karma list?

By the way, this would result in a forum downtime, so that everything can be revised at once and opened without any organizational chaos.

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Axel
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Taking in what everyone's been saying, I don't think that TUL should be deleted. There is a lot of baggage, but from my own experiences and everyone else's, there are very good memories. So I don't think that this site should be deleted, just left open for people to look through, and mostly inactive. I'm always disappointed when a forum closes and the board is closed, so there's no way to look through it. Sometimes a role play is the only place where I can find an intro if I'm looking for it, or if I need a reply post I'll search for one of the longer-length role plays I've done. So deleting / closing isn't the best plan, just take the guest greeting and instead link to the new site.
And I'm really not too good at advertising. I usually end up lazily bumping a board for about an hour.

I'm not going to think much about business, because it's still just an online role play site. How did TUL start? Personally, I got here after there were a reasonable amount of members. So I don't know how it started, I can assume with lots of advertising and lots of effort.

And Locke, moving might not solve every problem, but I honestly don't think that renovating again will work. Haven't we tried that? Even if we do delete everyone who has never posted or only posted once, the member count will still be very very high. Any time someone makes an account they're given a number, as you know. Our newest member is member number 8191, and it'll go up from there. Starting fresh, from what I see, would be our best bet. Not closing down this, but making a new one. An updated name, a new website, maybe a side panel, new design, new way for applications to work, new way for everything to be organized. As a sub-admin, it's hard to manage a website like this where there are so many forums and so many sub forums and so many threads. Downsize this place, start over.

Here is what I am proposing/suggesting if we were to create a new role playing site:
  • We don't close TUL. We downsize, as Locke mentioned, leave it. No staff, just members. Leave everything as it is and link to the new forum.
  • Existing role plays can just be moved with a link back to the old thread, but continued as normal.
  • After everyone moves from one place to the other, don't do much advertising for a week or two, just so everyone here can start to fill the forum with posts and discussion. To give the place a less empty feel to it.
  • In introductions to the site or within topics, mention heavily that there was a move, explain that there were so many members and that the place has kind of caved in on itself and everything else that whoever writes it decides to put.
  • As for a forum-wide role play.. it could be a good idea, so long as other genres and role plays would be permitted. But I don't think that would be a problem. I'm sure we could all discuss this one to get any details sorted out. But it might be a good plan as an optional hook. But we could just use the same hooks we've always used. "All genres, all literate" or upgrade that one too. But I like what Reaver mentioned about offering special little things to give members within the forum role play little bonuses. I'm not sure about giving them moderation positions, only because there's a chance that so many people could become moderators that way over time. But I guess I'm just thinking too far ahead, because there should be a moderator or two for that section. But moving characters up and everything else is a great plan. Have moderators post random events within role plays awarding a character with this or that,
  • Remove TULU, remove the battle arena, remove everything like that. Keep them completely hidden until there's enough interest once there's been advertising and more people joining the forum. The battle arena would require more members, from my own assumptions, and for TULU? Get that fine-tuned and completely flawless and pretty before releasing it.
  • The literacy is an important thing, but I don't like the idea of turning people away. From what I've seen, there are the people who are really really.. inadequate at writing. They don't capitalize or they don't whatever. Then there are the people who are good enough to understand but still may be lacking in some areas. Then the ones who are definitely good. I don't want to have to turn anyone away, so maybe what we could do is let everyone (With exceptions, maybe those people who are honestly awful at writing could be turned away) join, but let those who aren't quite up to whatever standards we decide, put a little plus by their name, or have their name a different colour, or a symbol after their name or something - just to mark that they could improve. And once they improve from a staff member's opinion or they go through an updated TULU or re-apply they can remove that little mark. But don't not let them post somewhere or anything, don't give them handicaps, just a little mark to show that they're in training or working on it or some other term. Either way, we shouldn't have to turn away someone if they're not quite up to par.
  • Moving our website could put a stop to the 'spammers'.
  • Organization! It's so hard to keep track of this because there are so many forums. Make a more organized archive, and go through and move all the inactive role plays once every two months. Twice a year get every member to post in a thread dedicated to that, or anywhere else in the forum, and then delete inactive accounts regularly. That keeps the member count down and removes inactive accounts. Which will keep everything from getting too stale if we can keep it up. And I would certainly keep up on something like that.
  • I don't know where TUL gets their skin now, but from what I've seen it always takes awhile to get it made. But there doesn't need to be a new skin if a new one would be too much of a problem, we could continue to use this one just update the graphics and the theme of it, and of course, leave the advertising until the site is completely finished, giving us time to settle in. Or we could use a temporary skin from the IF website or something like that until a permanent one is decided.
  • As it's been said, there are only twenty to thirty active members, it's not too big a move to get them to go from one site to another, and offering a link to a new one when anyone else decides to come back will give them a chance to go over to the new forum. Send out a mass e-mail once the move is complete, and wait to see who slithers back.



The reason I don't want to stay on this current name is that it is stale. It's an old and creaky website that has caved in. What Locke said was true, but we can take what remains now, and make something totally new out of it. Something new from what fell over. The key to success is advertising and keeping on it. Because, how did TUL start? Lots of advertising? (I'm guessing) Neopets is a good place, and as for other places, I have no idea. I've never been very good at advertising.
There are so many things that can be added to forums; money, the blinking inbox, various treats on the bottom, top, or side of a forum, ect. I love all the possibilities. There's even one that allows you to make your own emoticon.

I'm going through my own move here. I'm moving out of my one bedroom apartment and heading into a house with a couple roommates and I know for a fact that moving from one place that's become stale to another is a very good thing. It's a positive change, and if we stuck with this site, I can't say that I'd be much help advertising something that seems much too stale and crumbly to keep fighting for. We have tried revamping, it's not working. This site will still come up in google if anyone decides to look it up because it won't be closed.

I'd much rather create a new site than try (again) at revamping.
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Axel
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Oh, and if we make a new forum there will be absolutely no downtime, we wouldn't need to close the board for anyone, therefore giving us more time to take the time to make sure there are no errors and that everything will come out flawless so we won't have to continually tweak anything.
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Loki
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Rocks has a pretty good idea. I can't add much to it.

All I can say was that I saw this place when it was fairly new. Not BRAND new, mind you. Four years ago. That's a long time. Up until just a few years ago, this place was great. It was like a big family.

Now it's a West Virginia family.

If we recreate the place-- not revamp-- this place will likely get closer to its old level. We need actively friendly staff, as well as active members.

Karma points could be good.. but can be abused easily. If it's used right, it's a great addition.
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Cloud
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I don't think we should scrap TUL. I've been with TUL for...jeez...four years now? Three? Since about sixth or seventh grade for me, and I'm a Junior in High School now. TUL has been a very important part of my life and if we just toss it into a garbage bin, I would feel upset and awfully...I dunno, sad. Yeah, drama happened, and yeah, I played a part in it, but if you look anywhere in any place where several humans group together, at some point or another, people will divide and people will argue. It just happens. Human nature is at a state of war, or something.

Ashes has a lot of great points and she summarized some general sentiments pretty good. I tried to introduce a handful of new members, but it semed that the application and being approved thing turned them off and away. I'm not saying it's important, but I think it should be a bit more lax. I was a lot worse of a writer four years ago than I am now, and being fresh out of Neopets and being generally young has a margin of error.

So, as Ashes said, TUL shouldn't be closed. But maybe a new site wouldn't be so bad.

One thing I really would enjoy is like a forum dedicated to one forum RP, or something. Maybe it could change monthly or bi-monthly (seasonally?) so we get different genres and hopefully a lot of participation in one, set setting/plot/world. Think like Harry Potter specific RP forums or something, except it's only a corner. I think that would attract members looking for that kind of thing, and plus it can just be a corner of the site.

One thing we lack right now is advertisement. Neopets, Subeta, other sites, myspace or whatever you kids use--At least Neopets and Subeta have RP slots and I'm sure there are many frustrated writers on there that right now, we aren't recruiting because nobody really goes out and spams the crap out of a site for TUL. I'm not attacking the admins or members here--I just want to say that Feline really had that down. But this also leads to one of our problems--

We're older. As I said before, I was in sixth or seventh grade when I started here. Now I'm a Junior. I have harder homework, more time with friends, I can drive--I make room for roleplaying but I may not always have time to be here, and neither can most folks here. People have jobs and family and friends, and we lost a lot of our other older members to things like growing up and the like.

So...TUL's dying isn't really anyone's fault. It's an 'old' site. We're older people. And we need new members so very badly it's not funny.

For the tl;dr crowd:

TUL shouldn't be scraped, we need way better recruitment, and maybe creating a newer flashier site will help the roleplaying spirit live on. Starting from scratch will even the playing field, post count-wise and joining date-wise, and it'll seem more attractive to new members.
I'll watch the night turn light blue
But it's not the same without you
Because it takes two to whisper quietly
The silence isn't so bad
Till I look at my hands and feel sad
Because the spaces between my fingers
Are right where yours fit perfectly
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Roxas
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This isn’t supposed to upset anybody, it’s just my thoughts.

First and foremost, making a brand new forum is taking the easy way out. Now, I’m no proverbial philosopher, but I can tell you this much: cutting corners only makes more corners. That being said, when I use the word “easy” I mean it in a way more akin to “cowardly”, because rather than fixing our problems, we’re just walking away from them. There may (or may not) be less effort in making a new forum, but there’s more dedication in fixing what you already have.

But making a board is a lot of work in itself, and it will cause just as many issues as there are now. I’m not sure why people think that making a new way of doing things will be the way void of problems, though that’s not to say that I don’t approve of a change in how we go about doing things; I just don’t want people to assume it’ll improve everything.

I believe that the biggest issue is our number of active members. I think everyone agrees that we need more new members, but please, if we are unable to recruit new members now, what makes you think that we can do it with a new website? The primary reason that we’re not getting new members is that nobody advertises and apparently we’re not friendly enough to the people who do come (or something). But, a) a new forum won’t change that and, b) we could just as easily remedy that here.

As far as literacy goes, I’ve always had standards and I’ve never felt guilty about rejection applications because, although we’ve just told them that they will not be accepted into our site based on their level of performance in the application process, we haven’t told them that they will never be approved. I say this bluntly but I don’t mean to be rude, but it is not a good idea to give people symbols or colours or ANY form of public SIGN that they’re not good enough. You might as well change their title to, “I’m inferior, feel free to judge me”. Imagine that was you, and just imagine how you’d feel to know that everyone can see that ‘you need to improve on your writing skills’. It’s just as easy to send them a PM.

If we do make a new site, keeping our skin would probably be for the best. It’d make the new board feel like TUL, as opposed to some brand new forum with TUL’s old members. It’s a sense of familiarity and it’s comforting. Change is good, brand spanking new is daunting. It also makes it clear that this is just a new and improved TUL, and so new members who knew the old one or old members who have come back don’t need to be told.

I whole-heartedly do not agree with this site being kept open. I’ve had my writing stolen before and I know that abandoned websites seem like the perfect place to pinch ideas/characters/whatever.

Now, I’m not saying that we shouldn’t make a new website, but I most certainly don’t want people to be given the impression that it’ll be the answer to everything. I can assure you that there will be work to be done for everyone, especially the staff. Getting a new site off the ground isn’t an easy task if it isn’t a group effort, and I’m sure that we all know how simple it can be for them to die before they go anywhere, in which case we’d be right back here with the same problem and two forums.



Just my two cents, for what it's worth.
17.03.08

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Locke
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As my two cents, I'd like to say that everyone seems to like the phrase 'my two cents'.

Anyway, as for 'keeping the old site open' IF we decide to move, we'll make most of the forums non-viewable to non-members (that includes guests, banned, and validating), so the only people who can see the material posted are the ones who posted it.

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Froen
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Haha. Okay, okay, my turn.

I am well aware that it's highly likely there are people who will disagree with me, and flatly, I don't care; whether or not you agree or disagree with me is another issue entirely (incidentally it's also one I'd like to avoid entirely). I'm just expressing an opinion I presently hold because I, more or less, feel obligated to. If I convince someone, good for me, if I don't, then don't go trying to point out where I may or may not be wrong. This is strictly input so that we may collectively decide what's best to do.

Think of this little forum like you're grading an AP essay. "Reward the student for what they do correctly, do not punish them for what they've done wrong." (this is to everyone who is capable of coming to a collective decision about what we do)

In events of this variety, I'm afraid it's best to avoid disagreements. To my understanding, it's disagreements causing disputes that pushed away chunks of TUL's former population. I don't terribly mind, I like all of you well enough, and it's let me integrate into the community in a fashion that I'm rarely able to on forums or any internet groups.

Now how is it that I was able to graft myself into our little site where other people hopped in and failed? I'm not sure I can answer that, though a few small things come to mind. I tend to think that there is a certain amount of social skill required for proper integration into our group. That is to say, toddling on in and saying "I need Roleplays" in the c-box is a bad idea. Invariably though, it happens, and invariably I complain about it, generally to Cloud. It almost seems rude to me that someone would disrupt a conversation in such a fashion.

Now, I love the c-box. I think it's a great space saver, and saves space and time. So getting rid of it is out of the question, it's far too useful; if we could get added features by paying for it, I'm tempted to say I'd throw money at it without a second thought. Clearly though, it's not the proper place for saying "I need a roleplay"; it gives a bad impression, and seems very lazy.

Presenting an idea for a roleplay, however, especially if it's also relevant to the present conversation taking place in the c-box, is entirely acceptable.

That being said, I think the roleplay advertisement section could use more attention. My ideas mostly include a bunch of subsections ("Promotion" and "Planning" broken down into broad genres like the actual roleplay section of our forum). I also think we should avoid the word advertisement. Generally negative connotation, advertisement has. Promotion and several other, more positive alternatives are much better.

This leads to my first two suggestions.

Draw clear lines on the social operations of the site; some people don't pick up on pixel language as well as others. Explain what the c-box is generally used for. Explain where it's best to avoid saying certain things.

Develop an organization system that encompasses the site. If the roleplay related material is broken down into genres in one location, remain consistent throughout. Also make sure that the wording for the sections and subsections is appealing; a part of organization is naming.





Moving on.

A new site is not problem free. Agreements should be made. Skin, layout, organization, needs have to be addressed. Ultimately, people will disagree. Fortunately our paltry member pool shall be a boon to us here. We are capable of disagreeing on this particular thing with no nastiness involved. Unless I am mistaken in my judgment, we are at a level where argument is not going to be detrimental.

Should we make a new site, we will have to further discuss it's mechanizations. Think of us as the Constitutional Congress meeting to frame our constitution.

As far as moderation goes, I'm a minimalist. The administration and moderation team should be as efficient as possible. We only need as many as are required to keep things running smoothly. Think of it as the executive branch of US government. "President Locke and his cabinet", if you will.

That being said, the "departments" should be proportioned according to several factors. First, each section of the forum needs a head moderator. Roleplays and Roleplay planning should both fall into the same jurisdiction, however, the Lounge would fall into a "Community Moderato[r's]" jurisdiction, and so on with all departments of the forum.

The number of operating moderators below the head of each division should vary upon the amount of activity in the section. So obviously, moderators for the roleplaying and community categories would be most abundant.

That and you have to keep the total number of moderators proportionate to the community. I'd go with something to the tune of the following:

Twenty members --- Five Moderators

Thirty-five members --- Seven Moderators

Fifty members --- Ten Moderators.

By these numbers, I mean total, so yes, some people might have to pull double duty and keep track of both, let's say, community and roleplay moderation.

Department heads decide how best to handle situations and run sections of the forums, all of which is under Locke's scrutiny, and he can force them to change as he sees fit. Not tell them HOW to change, just force them to until it's reasonable.

That about wraps up what I feel we need as far as simply running the site is concerned.





So, the biggie for us . . .

Population!!!

Okay, now, look at our pixel demographic, yeah? Not many of us will still be in Highschool before the middle of next year. We're older than things such as Neopets and Gaiaonline, if I am guessing correctly; also, places like that are teeming with people. We're more . . . selective. Perhaps we need to turn to different pools to pick people out of. A TUL Facebook, even?

Turning people away doesn't generally appeal to me, but standards must be upheld. Labeling people as inadequate, to me, is far worse than just turning away. You don't recover from labels. Everyone will remember "Oh hey, he was labeled as 'not up to standards". You do not recover from labels. When they improve, it won't matter, because they were marked. You do not recover from labels. Judgment from people like me is almost completely absolute; I like you, or I do not. I will stand hard against the labeling people business. Because of me, it's unfair to them. Because of them, it's unfair to me. If that makes any sense to you. I'm being a hypocrite and disagreeing with that right now, because I strongly wish not to be subjected to that.

I can restrain and cover easily any and all expression of my dislike of an individual in a format like this easily, but put labels and make it very apparent that I avoid the labeled group? Not friendly. Not friendly at all.

--And I'll flesh this last idea out more when I am able, but my mom came back in and I'm now uber pissed off.--

Let's define this "literacy" noise, and make a "grading system" that determines whether or not the applicants are acceptable, and make the applicants make a proper sample, not this huge post as long as the one I am making now nonsense. That's not a reply; that's just trying to be impress and gives no indication of skill. Perhaps prompts to respond to? Anyways, I'll think about this idea more when I get back.

Later then. Lol at people who read all of this. It flatters me, really it does. It makes me feel important when I write something and it gets read.



Edited by Froen, Sep 29 2009, 08:31 PM.
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Viraliu - formerly, desired a different name. I'm whimsical, what can I say?
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Kyh
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I really don't know what to say... I know I haven't been the least bit active as of late, but the first month of high school, especially in your first year, is a killer.

I'd really hate to see TUL scraped, I really would. I think what we need is sort of a boundary- like, remove what we don't use, and just make the board seem not so... dead. Because with the high amount of bots and stuff, new members probably get the impression that the site isn't well maintained, even though we have great staff who do take the time to maintain it. What I'd do, is completely get rid of the rp archives dating back quite a while and the boards that haven't been used in three years. They haven't been used in so long, not much point to them anymore. But that'll clear up so many posts, it won't make the forum seem spammy or anything. And if we clear out all the inactive accounts, any new members or guests that pop along won't feel quite so insignificant. Right now, because we're showing so much disorder, etc., we're complaining and whining and just not doing much about it. I suggest we make like a plan A, B, and C. A could be revamp, maybe, and if that doesn't work, then B could be something else/fresh start, and C could or could be just quit it all entirely.

Again, I'm sorry I haven't been on much, but I'm still adjusting to school and I'll try to be on more often.
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Scathach
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Prompts rather than preset applications - I like the idea, Viraliu. Adding on to that, might I suggest that there be a pool of prompts, rather than a single one, for applicants to respond to? That would decrease the chance of the prospective member turning away because they don't know/dislike the genre or subject matter of the prompt.

For those thinking it sounds like a lot of labor, prompts wouldn't necessarily have to be individualized for each applicant. A set list posted at the top of the forum would do nicely.
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Locke
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Scathach
Sep 30 2009, 08:06 PM
Prompts rather than preset applications - I like the idea, Viraliu. Adding on to that, might I suggest that there be a pool of prompts, rather than a single one, for applicants to respond to? That would decrease the chance of the prospective member turning away because they don't know/dislike the genre or subject matter of the prompt.

For those thinking it sounds like a lot of labor, prompts wouldn't necessarily have to be individualized for each applicant. A set list posted at the top of the forum would do nicely.
I think this is an excellent idea, actually. We'll see what we can do to get that added to plans we're tinkering on (literally, we have no set judgment yet, we're waiting to see the group consensus).

Hurr, we are helpful links.
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Axel
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Locke
Sep 30 2009, 08:25 PM
Scathach
Sep 30 2009, 08:06 PM
Prompts rather than preset applications - I like the idea, Viraliu. Adding on to that, might I suggest that there be a pool of prompts, rather than a single one, for applicants to respond to? That would decrease the chance of the prospective member turning away because they don't know/dislike the genre or subject matter of the prompt.

For those thinking it sounds like a lot of labor, prompts wouldn't necessarily have to be individualized for each applicant. A set list posted at the top of the forum would do nicely.
I think this is an excellent idea, actually. We'll see what we can do to get that added to plans we're tinkering on (literally, we have no set judgment yet, we're waiting to see the group consensus).
I've done this before. It works really well. If it's what I'm thinking of, anyways.
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Roxas
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has got the edge.
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
If you mean prompts as in vague topics (like the tables you see on LJ), then sure. If you mean responses to paragraphs or whatever, then it would make it harder for people to apply. As it is, you can apply with any piece of writing; if we had prompts, it still allows the use of the writer's artistic license. But replying to something pre-written (which is what I think you're talking about, Ashes), although it shows us that they can roleplay as opposed to write in general, it'd take longer for them to finish the application, which might deter them. Besides, as a reviewer, it is so incredibly boring to have to read applications with the same ideas in them.
17.03.08

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