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The Team Masho Conundrum; The one of many
Topic Started: Aug 25 2014, 06:35 PM (325 Views)
Cynic_Focus
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If you have the Team Masho Bonus can you gain another? Since the characters are face-down I'm not sure if you can gain another if you have 3 members with another team symbol to gain x team bonus.

I'm trying to build a deck around this idea. The experimentation can begin once I know the answer.
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miamiheat420
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team bonuses are declared at the beginning of the game so them being face down doesnt effect you being able to gain team bonuses.
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Cynic_Focus
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But how will your opponent know that one is not lying since they're face-down? I could easily say I have a certain team bonus when I may not fully qualify. Not that I would do that but there's that margin of possibly one could do that.
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Cynic_Focus
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Just so you know my plan is to use Shinobi disguise to get rid of one of my Masho characters and bring in another to gain x team bonus.
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miamiheat420
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the team bonus explains how this works.

During Setup, after both you and your opponent reveal your 4 starting characters and you show that you have the Masho Team Bonus, search your Deck for a 5th character and reveal it. Put all 5 characters into your hand. Choose 1 of your 5 characters and put it into the Arena face-up and the other 4 facedown in the Match Slots of your choosing. Your characters only flip face-up when a card affects them, or when they enter the Arena. If you qualify for the Team Bonus after the game has started, then you just turn your characters facedown, without rearranging them.
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Cynic_Focus
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I'm fully aware of that. And because of that it's easy to have 3 Masho characters and 2 of another and same team symbol. With my team bonus I can place my fifth as Masho character (but my opponent is unaware.

I play Shinobi Disguise to replace my fifth with another with the same team symbol as the other two so I gain that team bonus. So would I flip them over just to show my opponent that I do indeed have the team bonus? That's what I'm asking.

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niiiiick
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If you replace a masho team member and go below 3, wouldn't that take away your Masho TB and you'd have to flip everyone back up?
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Cynic_Focus
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No. Once you qualify for a team bonus it's set until the end of the game unless your opponent plays a card that gets rid of your team bonus.

Read the effect of "White Mist" that's what you're thinking of.

I want to gain two team bonuses that's the reason I posted this thread but was not sure since the characters are face-down.
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miamiheat420
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it would just enter face up and stay face up. the only time you flip your characters face down is when you declare masho team bonus, its a one time thing. since you have to reveal all your characters in the beginning of the game, your opponent already knows what team symbols your characters have, this isnt hidden information so when your fifth enters the battlefield face up and if you qualify for a second team bonus, you can declare it. you also have to reveal your fifth character that you are shuffling in since using shinobi disguise "affects" it like the team bonus says.
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Cynic_Focus
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That's what I've been wanting to know. Now I can begin constructing my deck to this idea and see if it works with the plan I have in mind.
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miamiheat420
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glad to help. just remember you only flip characters face down when you declare the team bonus during set up (or if you gain it in the middle of a game but that doesnt matter in this situation.) its a one time thing. when shinobis attack and go back to the sideline, they dont reflip face down. they go back to the sideline face up. same works for this. it would look like this when you use the card.

1. use shinobi disguise
2. flip up your face down fifth character.
3. shuffle it into your deck and search out your new fifth character.
4. place the new fifth character face up in the fifth match slot.
5. declare any new team bonuses if you qualify for them.

like i said there is no hidden information here so no possible way to deceive your opponent and lie about declaring the team bonus. good luck with your deck construction.
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niiiiick
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Cynic_Focus,Aug 26 2014
10:31 AM
No. Once you qualify for a team bonus it's set until the end of the game unless your opponent plays a card that gets rid of your team bonus.

Read the effect of "White Mist" that's what you're thinking of.

I want to gain two team bonuses that's the reason I posted this thread but was not sure since the characters are face-down.

I don't think that's true. The rule books state you must have 3 members of a team in play and/or winner circle to qualify (unless a card effect or have Kurama team bonus). When you lose the 3rd character, out of play(like how you wanna discard the 3rd masho character), you lose the bonus.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong but pretty sure that's what it means.
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niiiiick
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White Mist works when you're in the middle of a game and some fighters are in the winner circle. Example:

I have 3 Roky and 1 Urameshi in my deck. The first match is over and 1 roky goes into the WC so I have 2 Roky and 1 Urameshi in arena and on sideline, but I still qualify since the 3rd roky is in the WC. Now my opponent uses White Mist and I lose the TB because I only have 2 on in the arena and on my sideline.
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Cynic_Focus
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I'm replacing my character. I mean you don't lose your team bonus if you lose in a match. Eventually you will have under 3 characters but you still keep your bonus. I think I still keep my Masho TB even if I'm replacing a character.

Edit: Oh well I don't really know if characters in the WC is what allows you to keep the bonus.
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niiiiick
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I'd think you lose masho TB then...anyone else know? I'd wanna know too for possible future deck construction
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miamiheat420
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Refer to nicks post below
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Cynic_Focus
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Where did you read this rule? The only thing I have to go by is the document with all the errata and rulings. If the rule you wrote is written in that way then yes I think I would lose my TB.
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miamiheat420
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refer to nicks post below
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teamcardboard
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Not to go too off topic but say you have Kurama Team bonus and your 4th is a yusuke. If you use loving friend to give another character the symbol you get the urameshi team bonus because two people in play will have the team symbols.

Now do I loose urameshi after kurama's effect wears off or do I now have urameshi as well for the rest of the game?
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Cynic_Focus
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TeamCardboard, the great thing about Kurama is that you can gain a team bonus once you fulfill the requirement and keep it until the end of the game unless a card effect says otherwise.

Kurama allows you to have that third team symbol (or second if you have the Team Kurama Bonus) to gain another team bonus it doesn't matter if the next turn you lose that symbol. Once you gain a team bonus it's there until the end of the game.
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niiiiick
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The definition in the rulebook of a Team Bonus is (copy and paste): A game effect your team gains when 3 or more of your characters in play and/or in Winner circle share the same team symbol.

It also says "A team bonus is constantly in effect as long as you qualify for it."

So putting those together I read it as you must have 3 or more in play and in WC to keep the bonus, once you don't qualify, it's gone.

There are rule book pdfs in the database Cynic
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niiiiick
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niiiiick,Aug 26 2014
11:28 AM
The definition in the rulebook of a Team Bonus is (copy and paste): A game effect your team gains when 3 or more of your characters in play and/or in Winner circle share the same team symbol.

It also says "A team bonus is constantly in effect as long as you qualify for it."

So putting those together I read it as you must have 3 or more in play and in WC to keep the bonys, once you don't qualify, it's gone.

There are rule book pdfs in the database Cynic

If using Team Kurama then insert 2 where it says 3 :P
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miamiheat420
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ok after reading the rule book some more i think i myself have misinterpreted the word "gain". after all this stuff i have been typing i think i actually am wrong. i have found in the rule book what niick is referring too and now that i think of it, it is way too strong to be able to gain a team bonus and never lose it. it says in the rule book that a team bonus is

"A game effect your team gains when 3 or more of your characters IN PLAY and/or in the winner's circle share the same team symbol."

since it specifies where the characters have to be that leads me to believe that the game is always checking these zones for the team symbols and if the requirements are not met you dont get the team bonus. but in your case cynic i think you can still make the deck. because losing the masho team bonus does not effect what you want to do at all. im just assuming youre using it for the free fifth character in the beginning of the game.

in TCB's situation loving friend says "until the END of the next draw step" so you use it at the beginning of your draw step. give someone urameshi team symbol and you gain the bonus. then next turn you have the option to keep the team symbol and bonus since the effect doesnt check until the end of the draw step and you use loving freind in the beginning.

jeez you guys make me think hard for a game that hasnt had judge rulings in almost 7 years. sorry for what i have said earlier. i believe nick is right. but i still dont see anything about losing team bonuses. the word "gain" is very confusing.

see you guys even i learn something new about this game every day.
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miamiheat420
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since there are no rulings anywhere i say we just make a rule for gateway format that allows this. in gateway format, once you gain a team bonus, you keep it for the rest of the game unless stated otherwise by a card. it adds a new dimension to the format and encourages new deckbuiling ideads like what cynic is trying to do. it seems super busted in all sets format though. cynics scenario is literally the only one i can think of that lets you gain a team bonus through this way. if anyone can see a way this can be abused and broken we can just change it back.


anyone else agree?
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niiiiick
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Yeah I was thinking the same thing, having a dead game like this is hard to find correct rulings lol


And if you got to keep bonuses for the entire game, cards that change team symbols would be insanely strong
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miamiheat420
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what do you think about my suggestion to gateway format? i say we make a rule that once you gain a team bonus you keep it for the rest of the game. i think it gives a new dimension to deck building that the format would benefit from.
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niiiiick
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miamiheat420,Aug 26 2014
11:47 AM
since there are no rulings anywhere i say we just make a rule for gateway format that allows this. in gateway format, once you gain a team bonus, you keep it for the rest of the game unless stated otherwise by a card. it adds a new dimension to the format and encourages new deckbuiling ideads like what cynic is trying to do. it seems super busted in all sets format though. cynics scenario is literally the only one i can think of that lets you gain a team bonus through this way. if anyone can see a way this can be abused and broken we can just change it back.


anyone else agree?

Befriend could possibly give you 3 with that rule.

How it would work is have 3 fighters with different and 2 with out symbols. So you could play befriend 3 times for each team symbol and would gain all of them. That's a little too broken for me.
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miamiheat420
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yeah youre right seems broken. but then again, is it? you know they are play the "befriend" deck so you just hold your halts. what combos of team bonuses would be unbeatable? urameshi, toguro, and what else? might seem broken on paper but how would it match up against top tier decks in GW format? tag team seems like it would eat it alive.
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niiiiick
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I guess they would gain the symbol and it wouldn't work the 2nd time unless your floating effects were canceled or you could drop the symbols another way. Would have to have A LOT of things go right for it to work. So bad example nm
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niiiiick
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miamiheat420,Aug 26 2014
11:57 AM
yeah youre right seems broken. but then again, is it? you know they are play the "befriend" deck so you just hold your halts. what combos of team bonuses would be unbeatable? urameshi, toguro, and what else? might seem broken on paper but how would it match up against top tier decks in GW format? tag team seems like it would eat it alive.

I'd add either uraotogi to control opponents had or Saint beasts to boost mine. But again you'd have to have A LOT go right
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miamiheat420
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exactly, i say we just allow it so cynic can make his deck. in GW format only though.
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teamcardboard
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Works for me haha, and always great to learn something new everyday haha
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Cynic_Focus
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The only way my idea would work is if I have 3 Masho members and 2 Kurama members on my team so Alliance format. Though my deck idea is exclusively for a Ghost Files deck I'm making (only using the base set).

If the rulebook states it like that then we go by that. I don't want special treatment. I have to go back and read these rules that I didn't know were around until today.

I'm assuming this is the Exile rulebook? I just downloaded all 3 documents of it and will be reading it thoroughly.
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miamiheat420
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yes exile rulebook. look at the definition for team bonus in the glossary.
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niiiiick
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I always have a rulebook handy just in case but yeah some people interpret things differently so without judges anymore, it's a free for all! Haha
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miamiheat420
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yeah butthats why its awesome this forums exists, we can all discuss and interpret it and come to a consensus.
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