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Zhou Yu; no chance against Zhuge Liang
Topic Started: Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:06 pm (3,727 Views)
Crazypete
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yea i know right!.. he makes Zhou Yu look like an idiot compared to Zhuge Liang...he was an excelletn strategist and tactician.. i mean Sun Ce couldn't have occupied Wu alone now could he?... i bet Zhou Yu is the one that made up al the strategies...
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Shizu
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crazypete
Jul 18 2006, 02:19 PM
yea i know right!.. he makes Zhou Yu look like an idiot compared to Zhuge Liang...he was an excelletn strategist and tactician.. i mean Sun Ce couldn't have occupied Wu alone now could he?... i bet Zhou Yu is the one that made up al the strategies...

I agree with you!
Zhuge Liang maybe is greater than Zhou Yu,but Zhou Yu is like a toy to Zhuge..
Human is not a toy!! Make his wound opened again? Cruel him.. :angry: :angry:
Besides,Sun Quan is saying that without Zhou Yu,he couldn't be an emperor.So, Zhou Yu is the emperor exactly :) .Poor that Zhou Yu dead at young age..(35 or 36??)
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SanadaYun
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crazypete
Jul 18 2006, 02:19 PM
yea i know right!.. he makes Zhou Yu look like an idiot compared to Zhuge Liang...he was an excelletn strategist and tactician.. i mean Sun Ce couldn't have occupied Wu alone now could he?... i bet Zhou Yu is the one that made up al the strategies...

I agree with you too.

Sun Ce wouldn't pose much of a threat without a good stratagist behind him, and Zhou Zu was that stratagist. Because if Sun Ce didn't have a good quality tactition, he'd be doomed.
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Little Conqueror of Jiang Dong
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SanadaYun
Jul 24 2006, 12:40 AM
crazypete
Jul 18 2006, 02:19 PM
yea i know right!.. he makes Zhou Yu look like an idiot compared to Zhuge Liang...he was an excelletn strategist and tactician.. i mean Sun Ce couldn't have occupied Wu alone now could he?... i bet Zhou Yu is the one that made up al the strategies...

I agree with you too.

Sun Ce wouldn't pose much of a threat without a good stratagist behind him, and Zhou Zu was that stratagist. Because if Sun Ce didn't have a good quality tactition, he'd be doomed.

Historically, Zhou Yu really had very little to do with most of Sun Ce's battles. I would know - I compiled a hundred page biography on Sun Ce for one of my research projects. Sun Ce actually did most of his own strategizing. There were a few exceptions, such as Lu Fan, but for the most part, Ce compiled his own strategies. That doesn't mean he didn't have trusted advisors, but he was undoubtedly a better tactician than you're giving him credit for.

A lot of people here don't know that pretty much everything you "know" about the characters from the novel is wrong. Zhou Yu is a backstabbing, treacherous schemer in the novel only because it makes Zhuge Liang, who is one of the main icons of the novel, look more favorable. Zhou Yu never tried to assassinate Zhuge Liang or ANY Shu officer. His Two Kingdoms plan actually involved making Liu Bei and his generals part of Sun Quan's staff and made no mention of killing them. Also, Zhuge Liang, historically, had absolutely nothing to do with the actual battle of Chi Bi except that he helped Lu Su negotiate the alliance between Liu Bei and Sun Quan, and acted as advisor to Liu Bei. That's it. He didn't propose a fire attack, he didn't call forth a magical gust of wind, and he didn't dance on Zhou Yu's corpse like he did in the novel. Huang Gai suggested the fire attack, the wind was a naturally occuring event for that time of year, there was no altar, and Zhou Yu never tried to assassinate anybody.

Besides, Zhou Yu won every battle he ever fought. Zhuge Liang was brilliant, but he lost as many as he won.
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Shizu
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Wow..Do you have any of Zhou yu's real profile?Tell me!!
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Little Conqueror of Jiang Dong
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Shizu
Jul 30 2006, 11:12 AM
Wow..Do you have any of Zhou yu's real profile?Tell me!!

http://www.kongming.net/novel/sgz/zhouyu.php

The book "Generals of the South" by Dr. Rafe de Crespigny has a lot more on Zhou Yu, Sun Ce, and Wu in general.
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Shizu
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Thanks! :lol:
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Will
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Bofubutt
Jul 28 2006, 08:29 PM
SanadaYun
Jul 24 2006, 12:40 AM
crazypete
Jul 18 2006, 02:19 PM
yea i know right!.. he makes Zhou Yu look like an idiot compared to Zhuge Liang...he was an excelletn strategist and tactician.. i mean Sun Ce couldn't have occupied Wu alone now could he?... i bet Zhou Yu is the one that made up al the strategies...

I agree with you too.

Sun Ce wouldn't pose much of a threat without a good stratagist behind him, and Zhou Zu was that stratagist. Because if Sun Ce didn't have a good quality tactition, he'd be doomed.

Historically, Zhou Yu really had very little to do with most of Sun Ce's battles. I would know - I compiled a hundred page biography on Sun Ce for one of my research projects. Sun Ce actually did most of his own strategizing. There were a few exceptions, such as Lu Fan, but for the most part, Ce compiled his own strategies. That doesn't mean he didn't have trusted advisors, but he was undoubtedly a better tactician than you're giving him credit for.

A lot of people here don't know that pretty much everything you "know" about the characters from the novel is wrong. Zhou Yu is a backstabbing, treacherous schemer in the novel only because it makes Zhuge Liang, who is one of the main icons of the novel, look more favorable. Zhou Yu never tried to assassinate Zhuge Liang or ANY Shu officer. His Two Kingdoms plan actually involved making Liu Bei and his generals part of Sun Quan's staff and made no mention of killing them. Also, Zhuge Liang, historically, had absolutely nothing to do with the actual battle of Chi Bi except that he helped Lu Su negotiate the alliance between Liu Bei and Sun Quan, and acted as advisor to Liu Bei. That's it. He didn't propose a fire attack, he didn't call forth a magical gust of wind, and he didn't dance on Zhou Yu's corpse like he did in the novel. Huang Gai suggested the fire attack, the wind was a naturally occuring event for that time of year, there was no altar, and Zhou Yu never tried to assassinate anybody.

Besides, Zhou Yu won every battle he ever fought. Zhuge Liang was brilliant, but he lost as many as he won.

yeah but even so Zhuge Liang had supply problems going to Chang An. You should give Zhuge Liang some credit? Sima Yi used that weakness against him. He won against the Nanmans that was it... Why is Chang an the captial of Han? Because the attack from the west is mountainous and it is hard to transport food so most of the time zhuge liang end up retreating but he did d pretty against sima yi. Zhou Yu was a good strategist but Zhuge Liang is a better organizer? Sima Yi looked at his camp and said he was a genius of the kingdom.
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Little Conqueror of Jiang Dong
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Sima Yi never faced Zhou Yu. And I do give Zhuge Liang plenty of credit. It's just that he had a lot of difficulties when dealing with things beyond his control. He never made backup plans, and he went into battles with only one strategy. A GREAT strategy, but only one nonetheless. If it went wrong, his whole army collapsed.
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Will
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Bofubutt
Nov 22 2006, 09:11 PM
Sima Yi never faced Zhou Yu. And I do give Zhuge Liang plenty of credit. It's just that he had a lot of difficulties when dealing with things beyond his control. He never made backup plans, and he went into battles with only one strategy. A GREAT strategy, but only one nonetheless. If it went wrong, his whole army collapsed.

1 stratergy that worked most of the time because his troops were so organized he was able to fall back and manage to kill the great defender call zhang he, kill wang shuang, kill some more wei commanders in his campaigns. Zhuge liang is cautious so he manage to make it... Wei Yan plan was more risky so yeah. I trying to say Zhou Yu is a better General than Zhuge Liang but Zhuge Liang was still smarter.
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Drewge
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Nov 13 2005, 08:47 PM
Basically he made Cao Cao seem like a cheap rip-off. Every good plan his advisor proposes is met by "Hey, I was thinking that too!". Even his own plans are made to seem like they're proposed by an advisor.

what i think that meant when he said that was not actually that he was thinking it. but i think he was just trying to say that he agreed that it was a good plan. and if he did think it first then i guess he was just testing his advisors... or maybe he was actually dumb...lol ma chao chased his ass until he chopped off his beard HA!
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Drewge
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But for Zhou Yu... ah he would have beaten Shu if Sun Ce would have lived. Sun Quan was too incompitent for Zhou Yu. what i actually think happened at chi bi was that Zhou Yu asked the fisherman and found out about the winds and then told Zhuge and Zhuge was all like "i think i will pretend to summon the winds so that our troops will think i am a god and so their morale would boost super high and then they will fight better. what do you think to that Zhou Yu?" and zhou yu was all like "YES PERFECT PLAN! you need some glory after i PW3ND their naval officers! i look like a god!"
and then ya. that is what i think happened.

poor zhou yu... maybe Zhuge and Liu Bei should have been born after Zhou Yu died of old age. then Wu might have stood a chance.
LU SU i didnt like as much. Lu Meng suked yaks. Lu Xun was awesome but still just a little rookie compared to Zhou Yu. ZHOU YU's TALENT WAS FAR SUPERIOR TO ALL THE WU ADVISORS.
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SlickSlicer
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Zhou Yu sucks compared to Zhuge Liang. I don't care what kind of historical evidence you can pull out of your ass to show otherwise. :/

Zhou Yu just helped Sun Ce in a few battles (like against Liu Xun, Yuan Shu's successor, etc.) and then defeated Cao REn. Zhuge Liang historically won a number of battles against Wei following initial reversals at Jieting and Chen Kuang. If he had lived longer he might have still wtfpwned the Wei officers. REally Sima Yi was the only match for Zhuge Liang, and only because Sima Yi had more resources and was fighting a defensive war. When it came to ambuscades, foresight and planning, Zhuge Liang was at the top of his game. He also was a pimp, was sexy and had a large wang.
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Dong Zhuo
Nov 30 2006, 02:49 AM
Zhou Yu sucks compared to Zhuge Liang. I don't care what kind of historical evidence you can pull out of your ass to show otherwise. :/

Zhou Yu just helped Sun Ce in a few battles (like against Liu Xun, Yuan Shu's successor, etc.) and then defeated Cao REn. Zhuge Liang historically won a number of battles against Wei following initial reversals at Jieting and Chen Kuang. If he had lived longer he might have still wtfpwned the Wei officers. REally Sima Yi was the only match for Zhuge Liang, and only because Sima Yi had more resources and was fighting a defensive war. When it came to ambuscades, foresight and planning, Zhuge Liang was at the top of his game. He also was a pimp, was sexy and had a large wang.

Zhuge Liang lost as much as he won because he was inflexible, and even his SGZ bio has a mention about his inflexibility.

Just because you like to ignore historical evidence doesn't mean you're right. ;)

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Yet year after year he marshalled the army and never attained success, probably because flexibility of strategy was never his forte.


Zhuge Liang was great, and I respect the reasonable opinions of those who think he was better than Zhou Yu. But I notice that you just completely glossed over the whole Chibi thing. And I don't recall Zhuge Liang ever actually beating Sima Yi OR Cao Zhen. He may have gotten some commanderies to rebel, but very seldom did he actually take any territory that wasn't taken back a few years later anyway.

Not once did Zhuge Liang ever fight a defensive battle, either. In his entire career, not once did he have to command an army in defense of Shu territory. He attacked, attacked again, and then when that didn't work, he attacked some more. He had a great strategy at Qishan: send Zhao Yun and Deng Zhi as decoys to lure out Cao Zhen, then attack. But as soon as Ma Su was defeated, Zhuge Liang's plan turned from a brilliant main plan for an offensive into a brilliant plan for a hasty retreat.

Granted, Zhuge Liang's conquest of Wudu was very impressive, but Guo Huai seems to have withdrawn without much of a fight. Then, he attacked Qishan again. Sure, he killed Zhang He, but this was while the Shu army was retreating. And the only reason Zhang He got killed was because Sima Yi was in too big a hurry to be rid of Zhuge Liang.

So, even going from Zhuge Liang's own SGZ bio, let's look at his battle record:

Cheng Du campaign (215): Played a limited role compared to Zhang Fei and others but still succeeded.
Southern campaign (225): Succeeded in quelling the Nanman and their allies as well as earning their support (for another few years, that is). A great move on Zhuge's part.
Ji Gorge/Qishan/Jieting (228): Sent Zhao Yun and Deng Zhi to act as decoys, fooling Cao Zhen, but he was still unable to gain any success, and once Zhang He defeated Ma Su, the battle was completely and utterly lost. Props to Zhuge Liang for taking responsiblity, but a loss is still a loss.
Chencang (228): Ran out of supplies. Defeated, managed to kill Wang Shuang during the retreat. But still failed to take any territory.
Wudu/Yinping (229): Managed to trick Guo Huai by distracting him with Chen Shi. Won without much of a battle, which is still a great win on Zhuge's part.
Qishan (231): Again, ran out of supplies. Killed Zhang He in an ambush during the retreat, but again, he still had to retreat and failed to make any gains.
Wuzhang (234): Died without being able to bring Sima Yi out to fight.

Overall, while still a highly distinctive career, Zhuge Liang did not succeed in many battles because of supply concerns, a sign of his inflexibility. He finally wised up at Wuzhang and took all the supplies he could, and perhaps if he had launched the battle a bit sooner, he may have succeeded or at least survived.

But I don't recall Zhou Yu ever forgetting to bring enough supplies to battle.

He played an absolutely huge role during Sun Ce's conquest of Liu Yao's territory. He may not have participated in the battles against Wang Lang, Xu Gong, or Yan Baihu, but that's because he was recalled by Yuan Shu.

Then, he participated not only in the attack on Liu Xun, but he also was present for Sun Ce's conquest of Shaxian, which was almost as bloody a battle as Chibi.

Zhou Yu quelled numerous rebellions in the Wu territory and then served as Fleet Commander during the battle at Xiakou, and we all know how that turned out. Then, there was Chibi, which had nothing to do with Zhuge Liang except that he initiated the alliance (yes, he made it possible, but we're not talking about how good a diplomat Zhou Yu or Zhuge Liang are). Then, he not only besieged and took Nanjun, but he also oversaw the conquest of Yiling by Gan Ning and the other Wu advances against Wei. All this despite being hit in the chest with an arrow and critically wounded.

No, his career wasn't as long as Zhuge Liang's, but not once did Zhou Yu ever lose a battle. He never even lost a minor engagement. He had enough foresight to have enough supplies to siege a well-entrenched opponent for over a year, while Zhuge Liang didn't even bring enough to last thirty days at Chencang. As soon as Zhuge Liang died, the Shu army went into chaos, with Yang Yi and Ma Dai killing Wei Yan and Jiang Wan not being able to take over as successor for some time. Zhou Yu, on the other hand, left Wu in a much better position when he died: he gave them a talented successor, a comprehensive plan to unite the land (which Sun Quan foolishly abandoned), and an army with a soaring morale after a series of victories. I'm absolutely certain that had Zhou Yu lived, the Two Kingdoms strategy would have, at the very least, placed Wu in Yizhou, even if it didn't go according to plan.

I believe that Zhou Yu is superior to Zhuge Liang. I didn't pull any of this out of my ass - it's all in very obvious places. Zhuge Liang was a true great of the era, but he had very obvious failings. Just because he had the fortune to live a longer life and thus see his kingdom grow more doesn't mean he was greater than Zhou Yu.
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SlickSlicer
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I knew this was coming. On with the debate!

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Zhuge Liang lost as much as he won because he was inflexible, and even his SGZ bio has a mention about his inflexibility.

Just because you like to ignore historical evidence doesn't mean you're right.


Chen Shou was biased. Some people say that his father, Chen Shi, was executed by Zhuge Liang. Regardless of whether this is true or not though, Chen Shou clearly had a thing for Cao Cao. His biography of Cao Cao outstrips just about everybody.

Just because Chen Shou thinks that Zhuge Liang's strategy is inflexible does not mean that Zhuge Liang wasn't great. I think of Zhuge Liang as somewhat like McClellan during the civil war. He was absolutely brilliant but didn't like to take risks. Maybe if Zhuge Liang did take risks, he would have succeeded more, but this cannot be known for sure or proven. It's more likely, in my opinion, that if Shu was entrusted with a military man who took risks *cough*Jiang Wei*cough*, it would have fallen quicker. Zhuge Liang also did not lose as much as he won. He lost at Jieting and at Chen Kuang (both losses I think he was responsible, having read Killigrew's summary of Kongming's Northern Campaigns) but won nearly all the battles of his NOrthern Campaigns after that. He also succeeded in pacifying Southern Yizhou when it was in rebellion. It's true that Liang won battles and lost campaigns, but this was because he did not want to risk the lives of his men. This, in my opinion, is a noble trait.

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Zhuge Liang was great, and I respect the reasonable opinions of those who think he was better than Zhou Yu. But I notice that you just completely glossed over the whole Chibi thing. And I don't recall Zhuge Liang ever actually beating Sima Yi OR Cao Zhen. He may have gotten some commanderies to rebel, but very seldom did he actually take any territory that wasn't taken back a few years later anyway.


Won battles, but didn't win wars. The problem was that Zhuge Liang was slowly but surely making progress, but could not live long enough to finish a very gradual campaign (which could have taken decades). You said yourself on thescholars, if I remember correctly, that Zhuge Liang held part of Wudu after taking it. I thought he had retreated, but apparently he did seize some land?

Now onto the subject of Zhou Yu, I skipped over Chi Bi for a couple reasons.

1.) Zhou Yu's small victory at Chi Bi was largely because disease in Jingzhou had devastated Cao Cao's armada. So Zhou Yu wasn't fully responsible for the first initial victory at Chibi.

2.) Zhou Yu defeated Cao Cao, but did not decisively beat him by himself. This deed was accomplished by Huang GAi, who recommended and carried out successfully a plan to burn Cao Cao's fleets while they were docked.

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Not once did Zhuge Liang ever fight a defensive battle, either. In his entire career, not once did he have to command an army in defense of Shu territory. He attacked, attacked again, and then when that didn't work, he attacked some more. He had a great strategy at Qishan: send Zhao Yun and Deng Zhi as decoys to lure out Cao Zhen, then attack. But as soon as Ma Su was defeated, Zhuge Liang's plan turned from a brilliant main plan for an offensive into a brilliant plan for a hasty retreat.


I stated that Zhuge Liang's brilliance showed after setbacks at Jieting and Chen Kuang right? I meant it. By the way, I'm not sure if you're right on the note about Zhuge Liang never fighting a defensive battle. According to this source (pg. 14-15), Zhuge Liang defeated an offensive led by Cao Zhen following his retreat from the 3rd Campaign. Because of heavy rain, the offensive failed, but Zhuge Liang had also helped ensure its' failure by preparing defenses in Hanzhong beforehand (after the 3rd Campaign) and planning to incite rebellion amongst the Qiang, etc.

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Granted, Zhuge Liang's conquest of Wudu was very impressive, but Guo Huai seems to have withdrawn without much of a fight. Then, he attacked Qishan again. Sure, he killed Zhang He, but this was while the Shu army was retreating. And the only reason Zhang He got killed was because Sima Yi was in too big a hurry to be rid of Zhuge Liang.


At Mumen. But this was not the only person Zhuge Liang killed. He also got rid of Wang Shuang after the failure of Chen Kuang, and his ambushes would practically always be successful.

Will argue other stuff later. Want to get SW2 NAO!


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Will
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Bofubutt
Nov 30 2006, 03:44 AM
Dong Zhuo
Nov 30 2006, 02:49 AM
Zhou Yu sucks compared to Zhuge Liang. I don't care what kind of historical evidence you can pull out of your ass to show otherwise. :/

Zhou Yu just helped Sun Ce in a few battles (like against Liu Xun, Yuan Shu's successor, etc.) and then defeated Cao REn. Zhuge Liang historically won a number of battles against Wei following initial reversals at Jieting and Chen Kuang. If he had lived longer he might have still wtfpwned the Wei officers. REally Sima Yi was the only match for Zhuge Liang, and only because Sima Yi had more resources and was fighting a defensive war. When it came to ambuscades, foresight and planning, Zhuge Liang was at the top of his game. He also was a pimp, was sexy and had a large wang.

Zhuge Liang lost as much as he won because he was inflexible, and even his SGZ bio has a mention about his inflexibility.

Just because you like to ignore historical evidence doesn't mean you're right. ;)

Quote:
 
Yet year after year he marshalled the army and never attained success, probably because flexibility of strategy was never his forte.


Zhuge Liang was great, and I respect the reasonable opinions of those who think he was better than Zhou Yu. But I notice that you just completely glossed over the whole Chibi thing. And I don't recall Zhuge Liang ever actually beating Sima Yi OR Cao Zhen. He may have gotten some commanderies to rebel, but very seldom did he actually take any territory that wasn't taken back a few years later anyway.

Not once did Zhuge Liang ever fight a defensive battle, either. In his entire career, not once did he have to command an army in defense of Shu territory. He attacked, attacked again, and then when that didn't work, he attacked some more. He had a great strategy at Qishan: send Zhao Yun and Deng Zhi as decoys to lure out Cao Zhen, then attack. But as soon as Ma Su was defeated, Zhuge Liang's plan turned from a brilliant main plan for an offensive into a brilliant plan for a hasty retreat.

Granted, Zhuge Liang's conquest of Wudu was very impressive, but Guo Huai seems to have withdrawn without much of a fight. Then, he attacked Qishan again. Sure, he killed Zhang He, but this was while the Shu army was retreating. And the only reason Zhang He got killed was because Sima Yi was in too big a hurry to be rid of Zhuge Liang.

So, even going from Zhuge Liang's own SGZ bio, let's look at his battle record:

Cheng Du campaign (215): Played a limited role compared to Zhang Fei and others but still succeeded.
Southern campaign (225): Succeeded in quelling the Nanman and their allies as well as earning their support (for another few years, that is). A great move on Zhuge's part.
Ji Gorge/Qishan/Jieting (228): Sent Zhao Yun and Deng Zhi to act as decoys, fooling Cao Zhen, but he was still unable to gain any success, and once Zhang He defeated Ma Su, the battle was completely and utterly lost. Props to Zhuge Liang for taking responsiblity, but a loss is still a loss.
Chencang (228): Ran out of supplies. Defeated, managed to kill Wang Shuang during the retreat. But still failed to take any territory.
Wudu/Yinping (229): Managed to trick Guo Huai by distracting him with Chen Shi. Won without much of a battle, which is still a great win on Zhuge's part.
Qishan (231): Again, ran out of supplies. Killed Zhang He in an ambush during the retreat, but again, he still had to retreat and failed to make any gains.
Wuzhang (234): Died without being able to bring Sima Yi out to fight.

Overall, while still a highly distinctive career, Zhuge Liang did not succeed in many battles because of supply concerns, a sign of his inflexibility. He finally wised up at Wuzhang and took all the supplies he could, and perhaps if he had launched the battle a bit sooner, he may have succeeded or at least survived.

But I don't recall Zhou Yu ever forgetting to bring enough supplies to battle.

He played an absolutely huge role during Sun Ce's conquest of Liu Yao's territory. He may not have participated in the battles against Wang Lang, Xu Gong, or Yan Baihu, but that's because he was recalled by Yuan Shu.

Then, he participated not only in the attack on Liu Xun, but he also was present for Sun Ce's conquest of Shaxian, which was almost as bloody a battle as Chibi.

Zhou Yu quelled numerous rebellions in the Wu territory and then served as Fleet Commander during the battle at Xiakou, and we all know how that turned out. Then, there was Chibi, which had nothing to do with Zhuge Liang except that he initiated the alliance (yes, he made it possible, but we're not talking about how good a diplomat Zhou Yu or Zhuge Liang are). Then, he not only besieged and took Nanjun, but he also oversaw the conquest of Yiling by Gan Ning and the other Wu advances against Wei. All this despite being hit in the chest with an arrow and critically wounded.

No, his career wasn't as long as Zhuge Liang's, but not once did Zhou Yu ever lose a battle. He never even lost a minor engagement. He had enough foresight to have enough supplies to siege a well-entrenched opponent for over a year, while Zhuge Liang didn't even bring enough to last thirty days at Chencang. As soon as Zhuge Liang died, the Shu army went into chaos, with Yang Yi and Ma Dai killing Wei Yan and Jiang Wan not being able to take over as successor for some time. Zhou Yu, on the other hand, left Wu in a much better position when he died: he gave them a talented successor, a comprehensive plan to unite the land (which Sun Quan foolishly abandoned), and an army with a soaring morale after a series of victories. I'm absolutely certain that had Zhou Yu lived, the Two Kingdoms strategy would have, at the very least, placed Wu in Yizhou, even if it didn't go according to plan.

I believe that Zhou Yu is superior to Zhuge Liang. I didn't pull any of this out of my ass - it's all in very obvious places. Zhuge Liang was a true great of the era, but he had very obvious failings. Just because he had the fortune to live a longer life and thus see his kingdom grow more doesn't mean he was greater than Zhou Yu.


It think it is unfair for you to say zhuge liang didnt bring enough supplies! it was hard to access! I sweat if zhou yu 2 kingdom plan even worked he would have to train mountainous troops to go into changan! if shu couldnt do it what makes you think zhou yu can with jingzhou and naval troops? It's CHANGAN! THE CAPTIAL! LIU BANG FOUND THAT IF YOU ATTACK EAST FROM IT THE CAPTIAL WILL FALL! THAT WAS THE ONLY PROBLEM! sorry caps by mistake but that was very important. Compare to Jiang Wei who keep attacking and draining shu resources Zhuge Liang did very little compare to that. Sima Yi had more supplies, more men and was on defensive he could just hold out, Provision transport was very hard and Li Yan couldnt even keep up. The main reason Yang Yi was used was because he was good at transporting as stated in his SGZ, It's a shame Wei Yan and him never got along. Oh If zhuge liang got the supplies he would beat Sima Yi, and he did sima yi shuted himself.

hey man Zhou yu did lose a battle! a battle against Cao Ren! check his SGZ bio! and if it wasnt for Zhang Fei blocking the wei reinforcement along with other shu officers they would have beated zhou yu!
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hey man Zhou yu did lose a battle! a battle against Cao Ren! check his SGZ bio! and if it wasnt for Zhang Fei blocking the wei reinforcement along with other shu officers they would have beated zhou yu!


I don't see anything about Zhou Yu losing a battle to Cao Ren. He withdrew from the front lines but maintained the siege. Cao Ren counterattacked, got his ass handed to him, and then Zhou Yu went back to the front lines. People like Cheng Pu and Han Dang were still besieging the city.
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SlickSlicer
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AGain, this is largely a subjective debate. Now, since you say nothing otherwise, I'm pretty sure that Zhuge Liang did fight one defensive campaign against Wei after the aborted third northern invasion. The reason I pick Zhuge Liang over Zhou Yu is because I admire Zhuge Liang's tactics, specifically his usage of ambush tactics, over Zhou Yu's otherwise ordinary victories.
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Will
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Initially, Cao Ren did his job well in defending JiangLing. For about a year Zhou Yu could not captured JiangLing, however, by using Gan Ning as a decoyed to lure Cao Ren out of JingLing, Zhou Yu manage beat Cao Ren and force him to retreat to the north.

Zhou Yu led several tens of thousand troops to attack Jiang Ling and the vanguard of several thousands soldiers was near the City of Jiang Ling. Cao Ren mounted the city wall and looked afar for sights of the enemies. Seeing the arrival of the vanguard, Cao Ren proceeded to recruit some 300 soldiers and dispatched Niu Jin to lead them to battle. The enemies were overwhelming in numbers and the troops led by Niu Jin were few. Very soon, Niu Jin was surrounded by the enemies. Chen Qiao, the Chief Secretary or Chang Shi, stood on the city to observe the battle with some of the other officers. They were terrified when they saw Niu Jin's troops became engulfed by the enemies. On the contrary, Cao Ren's anger rose and he shouted for his horse. Seeing that, Chen Qiao and the rest of the officers appealed to Cao Ren, "The enemies were many! It's better to sacrifice the life of the few hundreds than to risk the life of the General!". Cao Ren refused to heed their words. Doning his armour, Cao Ren mounted his horse and handpicked tens of the fitter soldiers under his command and they rode out of the city. When the riders were near the city's moat (some hundred steps away from the enemies), Chen Qiao thought that Cao Ren would position himself there to rally Niu Jin's hard-pressed troops. To his surprise, the riders did not stop. Leading his riders, Cao Ren crossed the moat and dashed right into the enemies encirclement! Niu Jin was soon rescued out of the encirclement. However, some of Niu Jin's troops remained trapped inside. Instead of abandoning them, Cao Ren made repeated dashes to rescue them, killing numerous enemy soldiers along the way. The enemies were forced to retreat soon after. Seeing that Cao Ren had safely returned to the city while successfully rescued Niu Jin despite the overwhelming odds, Chen Qiao and the rest of the officers exclaimed,"The General indeed behaves like a God from the Heaven!". All the three armies were convinced of Cao Ren's courage.

I think Cao Ren didnt get his ass handed down to him :mellow:
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Drewge
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Kuki
Nov 30 2006, 11:50 PM
AGain, this is largely a subjective debate. Now, since you say nothing otherwise, I'm pretty sure that Zhuge Liang did fight one defensive campaign against Wei after the aborted third northern invasion. The reason I pick Zhuge Liang over Zhou Yu is because I admire Zhuge Liang's tactics, specifically his usage of ambush tactics, over Zhou Yu's otherwise ordinary victories.

What about the victory against Liu Yao, or the capture of Taishi Ci?
Sun Ce and Zhou Yu were a perfect combo, but even though they were good Shu would have beaten them cause they had lots of compitent generals...
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Will
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Drewge
Dec 4 2006, 06:32 PM
Kuki
Nov 30 2006, 11:50 PM
AGain, this is largely a subjective debate. Now, since you say nothing otherwise, I'm pretty sure that Zhuge Liang did fight one defensive campaign against Wei after the aborted third northern invasion. The reason I pick Zhuge Liang over Zhou Yu is because I admire Zhuge Liang's tactics, specifically his usage of ambush tactics, over Zhou Yu's otherwise ordinary victories.

What about the victory against Liu Yao, or the capture of Taishi Ci?
Sun Ce and Zhou Yu were a perfect combo, but even though they were good Shu would have beaten them cause they had lots of compitent generals...

im sorry to break this but Sun Ce did all of that planning :mellow:
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SlickSlicer
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Indeed. I still stand with my arguments that Zhuge=better.
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Dogman
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It seems like Zhou Yu's command style was more of a tactical-maneuvering style. He forced the enemy forces into an unfavorable position and then destroyed them in battle.

Zhuge Liang played mind games with the enemy commanders. He fought as rarely as possible, preferring to intimidate or discourage the enemy army's leadership.

By Sun Tsu's criteria, Zhuge Liang is clearly the more advanced strategist, although Zhou Yu would certainly be a competent one (Zhou Yu was best at short, decisive clashes).
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SlickSlicer
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Zhuge Liang tried to fight only when he could lure the enemy into a field battle. This was because of his bad experiences in the siege of Chen Kuang. He would attempt to seduce an enemy to attack him, and then ambush him. At other times, his generals just plain destroyed his enemies once they left their cities and went out to fight.
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Will
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Kuki
Dec 5 2006, 07:37 AM
Zhuge Liang tried to fight only when he could lure the enemy into a field battle. This was because of his bad experiences in the siege of Chen Kuang. He would attempt to seduce an enemy to attack him, and then ambush him. At other times, his generals just plain destroyed his enemies once they left their cities and went out to fight.

well i dunno if this happen but more peolpe liked zhuge liang remember when he ried to send his troops back? his troops fought to death for him and won. Where does zhou yu do that forcing them in a unfavorable position? chibi operation was stop because of sickness. not like zhou yu can do chen cang either.
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