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Zhou Yu; no chance against Zhuge Liang
Topic Started: Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:06 pm (3,726 Views)
Dogman
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Shadowlink
Dec 5 2006, 01:41 PM
Kuki
Dec 5 2006, 07:37 AM
Zhuge Liang tried to fight only when he could lure the enemy into a field battle. This was because of his bad experiences in the siege of Chen Kuang. He would attempt to seduce an enemy to attack him, and then ambush him. At other times, his generals just plain destroyed his enemies once they left their cities and went out to fight.

well i dunno if this happen but more peolpe liked zhuge liang remember when he ried to send his troops back? his troops fought to death for him and won. Where does zhou yu do that forcing them in a unfavorable position? chibi operation was stop because of sickness. not like zhou yu can do chen cang either.

At Chi Bi, Zhou Yu tricked Cao Cao's army, which was larger and better armed, into a position where Sun Quan's inferior force could beat them. The chains, the sickness, and the fire attack all served as force multipliers that enable Zhou Yu's troops to outfight Cao Cao's. Zhuge Liang fought battles like that too, but he seemed to prefer subtler methods.

Also, fighting field battles instead of sieges is another hallmark of Sun Tzu's tactics. Fighting in the field is less costly in lives and material, takes substantially less time, and gives the commander more options in manuever and strategy.
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SlickSlicer
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Indeed. Zhuge Liang was a strict adherent of Sun Tzu. I'm not even sure if chaining was used by Cao Cao at Chi Bi by the way. I think what happened is that Cao CAo's navy and Zhou Yu's navy skirmished and Cao Cao lost, so he retreated. Cao Cao then docked his ships, Huang Gai offered to burn them, and because they were docked and the wind was favorable, the fire was highly effective.
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Will
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he trick cao cao 200,000 better armed larger, Sicker,low moraled,untrained army. I really doubt there was a fire attack, if it was it was liu bei and cao cao said he burn the rest of the fleet. According to wei it was abandoned by sickness
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Dogman
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Kuki
Dec 6 2006, 06:49 AM
Indeed. Zhuge Liang was a strict adherent of Sun Tzu. I'm not even sure if chaining was used by Cao Cao at Chi Bi by the way. I think what happened is that Cao CAo's navy and Zhou Yu's navy skirmished and Cao Cao lost, so he retreated. Cao Cao then docked his ships, Huang Gai offered to burn them, and because they were docked and the wind was favorable, the fire was highly effective.

That sounds plausible. And I personally don't know much about this stuff, because I haven't read the historical documents, just ROTK.
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SlickSlicer
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Shadowlink
Dec 6 2006, 01:34 PM
he trick cao cao 200,000 better armed larger, Sicker,low moraled,untrained army. I really doubt there was a fire attack, if it was it was liu bei and cao cao said he burn the rest of the fleet. According to wei it was abandoned by sickness

I am getting this from Dr. Rafe de Crispigny's 'To Establish Peace' (I forgot exactly what chapter). To Establish Peace is the translated version of the Zizhi Tongjian.

The fire attack was after actual ship-to-ship fighting had taken place. Cao Cao retired his naval forces and Huang Gai sped towards his docks in a light ship and burnt his armada.
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Will
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blah I don't like chibi it is so overrated if you read wei cao cao sgz it says liu bei burned the ship and if you read liu bei bio it says that he went ahead and burn it. Thing is Chibi is overrated even with zhou yu there.
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Crazypete
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KW's Zhou Yu
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IMO i think Zhou Yu and Zhuge Liang were equal.. of course ROTK makes Zhou Yu look like Zhuge Liang's B$@#$...but then again.. ROTK is 30 % fiction.. I think Lu Guang Zhong added that to add some spice to the story..
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LoW
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Shadowlink
Dec 7 2006, 01:49 PM
blah I don't like chibi it is so overrated if you read wei cao cao sgz it says liu bei burned the ship and if you read liu bei bio it says that he went ahead and burn it. Thing is Chibi is overrated even with zhou yu there.

It decided the fate of Three Kingdoms and is considered as one of the greatest naval battles of China >_>. I don't think it's overrated at all...
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Crazypete
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exactly.. if Chibi never happened

1. Liu Bei would certainly die along with his army... remember they were running away from Cao Cao... and

2. Wu would i think actually be in peace..well sort of

3. it would have been Romance of the Two Kingdoms instead of three... -_- unfortunately Shu survived..

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SlickSlicer
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ROTK overrates Zhuge Liang certain areas. But Zhuge Liang won a lot of battles during the northern campaign. Again, I think of him like McClellan from the Civil War. He won battles, but not campaigns. And he could not be defeated himself decisively by nearly anybody. I admire that personally. :/
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Will
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Wei should have ruled . Han was living on live support anyways. Even if liu bei and wu wins in chibi the same thing will happen jing will get divided. Greatest Naval battle my butt. Yang Hu Naval I mean jin's naval owned wu later on attacking from all sides that was the biggest naval battle ever because both sides were equally trained. All huang gai did was plan the fire attack carry it out/or liu bei carried it out. Zhou Yu needed 30,000 troops which was great since liu bei wanted more. Zhou Yu knew wei was going to be sick and that contribute to alot and Wu naval can kill wei's naval anytime along with liu qi naval.
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Qilin Emperor
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I think Zhou Yu and Lu Xun are about the same.
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quocthai
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Prince of Jiang Dong.
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Zhou Yu
Nov 13 2005, 02:06 PM
i feel bad for Zhou Yu. I'm reading the Three Kingdoms and i just finished Zhou Yu's death. The poor guy was like a puppet for Zhuge Liang. Whatever he said, Zhuge Liang knew it already..

I hate novel. Zhou Yu die because he sick. not because Kongming.
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Kittn
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Zhou Yu's Lap Cat
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quocthai
Nov 25 2007, 07:07 AM
Zhou Yu
Nov 13 2005, 02:06 PM
i feel bad for Zhou Yu. I'm reading the Three Kingdoms and i just finished Zhou Yu's death. The poor guy was like a puppet for Zhuge Liang. Whatever he said, Zhuge Liang knew it already..

I hate novel. Zhou Yu die because he sick. not because Kongming.

I agree. The novel is rubbish when it comes to Zhou Yu. Believe nothing it says. I dunno what Luo's beef was with Gongjin, but he really messed with the man's image. Perhaps there was some secret jealousy on Kongming's part? Zhou Yu really had nothing to do with Zhuge Liang. He barely even knew the guy by most accounts.

The historical Zhou Yu was leagues above Zhuge Liang. He won every battle he ever fought in. His tactics always succeeded. It speaks loads for what could have been if Sun Quan had listened to him on how to deal with Liu Bei. Failing that, if he had lived to see his 2 Kingdom plan through, no doubt history would have favored Wu a lot more than it already did.

Personally I've never read the novel. And knowing how awful Zhou Yu is portrayed in it, as a heartless, self-absorbed jealous man.... I doubt I ever will. Nothing could be further from the true Zhou Yu than how SGYY says he was. :angry:

*feels a rant coming on* Must.. resist...
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the glorious sun jian
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Not only Zhou Yu who had some stupid stories in the novel .......Sun Jian too.........


however I really think that the best strategist in Wu is Lu Meng .
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Qilin Emperor
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the glorious sun jian
Nov 25 2007, 12:42 PM
Not only Zhou Yu who had some stupid stories in the novel .......Sun Jian too.........


however I really think that the best strategist in Wu is Lu Meng .

What about Lu Xun?
I think he's better.
Capture of Jingzhou is credited to him.
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Wenze
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It shouldn't be. Jingzhou was entirely Lu Meng's idea and the strategies used in it were his.

Zhou Yu has always impressed me in history. Quite a humble, and pleasant man according to historical sources, along with his intelligence and battlefield skills. I'm not going to say he's the best Grand Commander Wu had, but he definitely ranks up there.
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Qilin Emperor
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ZhouTai50
Nov 26 2007, 01:05 AM
It shouldn't be. Jingzhou was entirely Lu Meng's idea and the strategies used in it were his.

Zhou Yu has always impressed me in history. Quite a humble, and pleasant man according to historical sources, along with his intelligence and battlefield skills. I'm not going to say he's the best Grand Commander Wu had, but he definitely ranks up there.

He's good looking as well, I suppose.
He was called, 'Zhou Lang'.
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the glorious sun jian
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ZhouTai50
Nov 26 2007, 01:05 AM
It shouldn't be. Jingzhou was entirely Lu Meng's idea and the strategies used in it were his.

Zhou Yu has always impressed me in history. Quite a humble, and pleasant man according to historical sources, along with his intelligence and battlefield skills. I'm not going to say he's the best Grand Commander Wu had, but he definitely ranks up there.

My respect to you Zhou Tai 50 -_-


Yeah Lu Meng took Jing by his own ..

However I really dont think that Zhou Yu was better than Lu Meng ....
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Yuuhi
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quocthai
Nov 25 2007, 07:07 AM
Zhou Yu
Nov 13 2005, 02:06 PM
i feel bad for Zhou Yu. I'm reading the Three Kingdoms and i just finished Zhou Yu's death. The poor guy was like a puppet for Zhuge Liang. Whatever he said, Zhuge Liang knew it already..

I hate novel. Zhou Yu die because he sick. not because Kongming.

Geez I hate the novel because of that too. Luo Guanzhong seriously messed it up. I once spoke to a PRC who insisted that the novel was real history text! Up till today I'm still trying to figure out whether he's serious or just trolling. >__>

Luo Guanzhong was no doubt a Shu-worshipper. His portrayals of Shu was extremely good while Wei and Wu were consistently made to look like idiots and villains.

Zhou Yu was but one of the most well-known casualty of the novel. He respected Zhuge Liang, and never tried to murder the latter or any Shu retainers. If he did tried to assasinate Zhuge Liang before, it was due to him realising that ZGL would never surrender to Wu, and would even be a real handful to Wu. It was never of a case of 'me, me, me, and me'.

Zhou Yu died from an arrow wound when he attacked Jiangling, I think. Either that or he died from an illness which stemmed from the arrow wound.
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Kittn
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Yuuhi
Dec 8 2007, 04:39 AM
quocthai
Nov 25 2007, 07:07 AM
Zhou Yu
Nov 13 2005, 02:06 PM
i feel bad for Zhou Yu. I'm reading the Three Kingdoms and i just finished Zhou Yu's death. The poor guy was like a puppet for Zhuge Liang. Whatever he said, Zhuge Liang knew it already..

I hate novel. Zhou Yu die because he sick. not because Kongming.

Geez I hate the novel because of that too. Luo Guanzhong seriously messed it up. I once spoke to a PRC who insisted that the novel was real history text! Up till today I'm still trying to figure out whether he's serious or just trolling. >__>

Luo Guanzhong was no doubt a Shu-worshipper. His portrayals of Shu was extremely good while Wei and Wu were consistently made to look like idiots and villains.

Zhou Yu was but one of the most well-known casualty of the novel. He respected Zhuge Liang, and never tried to murder the latter or any Shu retainers. If he did tried to assasinate Zhuge Liang before, it was due to him realising that ZGL would never surrender to Wu, and would even be a real handful to Wu. It was never of a case of 'me, me, me, and me'.

Zhou Yu died from an arrow wound when he attacked Jiangling, I think. Either that or he died from an illness which stemmed from the arrow wound.

The siege against Jiangling started in 208, right after Chi Bi. Zhou Yu faced Cao Ren and though he was shot, he survived. He went on to lead his troops to Victory. He was usually part of the Vanguard (the games and the novel screw that up too, ever notice how in the games the AI Zhou Yu usually goes back to camp and sits there?) so its pretty impressive that even wounded he'd still ride out with his bruisers and beat back Cao Ren's troops. The siege lasted for months.

Zhou Yu died in 210. He was in Ba Qiu, preparing to attack against Liu Zhang as part of his 2 Kingdoms plan when he fell ill. Sickness killed him. Probably Dysentery or Consumption. :(

Anyway. SGYY is wrong. And yes, you'll find many people who say it is historical fact. On the scholars I know there are those who visit chinese forums, and they have people accusing them of 'stepping all over their beliefs' when you point out discrepancies between the novel and actual history. :P
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Will
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Quote:
 
Luo Guanzhong was no doubt a Shu-worshipper. His portrayals of Shu was extremely good while Wei and Wu were consistently made to look like idiots and villains.
sorry but no, he write a book to inspire people to fight back the mongols, the shu were the main characters of the book.

Yet again you dont know that many chinese people dont have the records to the three kingdom, the interweb, and fast amount of knowledge, even so we just dont care =p.
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Marwaha
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well i do feel sorry for Zhou Yu ye he kinda didn't stand a chance against ZGL but he was one of the few who could have caused him some problems

but anyways the books were written from a Shu point of view
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Strata
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As a wu supporter I would say Zhou Yu,plus look at Chi Bi that wasnt Zhuge Liangs doing,had wu and shu battled more with those two I think it would be pretty much equal because they both basically did the same things and got their respective lords the kingdoms of Wu and Shu.
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M.O.G.
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He stood a chance, but not a great one. Zhou Yu was good, but zhuge was just a better tactician and in the long run, Wu would've lost. Not to mention that Zhuge knew how to get under his skin.
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