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Comprehensive ideas for a Gempei War Kessen
Topic Started: Tue Dec 6, 2005 5:25 am (641 Views)
Hungry Wolf
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Here are my ideas for a Kessen based on the Gempei wars:

For the next Japanese Kessen, I think it would be best to avoid the Sengoku era. Hideyoshi's wars would be interesting, but so much of his life was spent fighting for Nobunaga and defeating Nobunaga's other generals, that it would seem too close to part 3. A game where you chose one of the other main warlords seems interesting, but I don't think it likely with NA covering that aspect. On that note, we should do whatever we can to make sure that the newest Nobunaga's Ambition comes here. More on that later.

I propose the Gempei War. Koei hasn't touched that scenario yet, but it was absolutely vital in the forming of Japan as we know it. There were heroes on both sides, and the war really lasted for generations. I have a lot of ideas for it, but I think that this one is paramount, at least for the story;
No strictly bad guy/good guy storyline. My biggest gripe with K3 was that Nobunaga was too saintly. While I think he was a brilliant hero, he was also ruthless and abrasive (reminds me of me). In the Gempei Kessen, the Taira and the Minamoto should both be shown as they were; ambitious and often corrupt, and with heroes on both sides.

Definitely make both sides playable. I would do it in the same tradition as K1 and 2; play as the winners (or traditional good guys.....the bias of LGZ is not even close to the hatred/love of the Taira/Minamoto in the tale of Genji....read the Tale of Heike instead) first, then as the other. Maybe after all of that, you can even play as a third party or play through a Gaiden (like 'what if' Yoshitsune escaped and rose again, or escaped to the mainland and became a general of Genghis).

the Gempei war is recorded pretty well. The biggest decisive battles (Dan No Ura, Ichi No Tani) were fought either completely on water, or mostly on water. So there will need to be a strong naval system. Land battles will need to capture the 'chaos' of the age, since that was when Samurai still fought in the manner of chivalry. Oftentimes, the Taisho would send out a letter, challenging the enemy to take the field. It was not rare for a commander to involve himself in the fight, or at least to be giving orders from the front as Julius Caesar would do. Battle was very ritualized as well, with samurai eating ceremonial/sacred meals and sake before riding to battle. The cult of chivalry even went so far in some circles that some samurai would eschew the armor that protects the back- affectionately known as the "coward's plate."
Of course, cunning tactics and brutal slugfests still took place. The artwork from the period shows that troops were just as willing to use whatever means necessary to win in combat. I think that to transfer the feel of the time to the game, you should have 'marching orders.' This would mean that you put your unit in different modes, like 'fight at will,' 'defend at all costs,' 'leave it to me,' and so on. Duels would play a big part in the game, and could take place anywhere: on horseback, foot, at sea. I don't know if duels would be controllable, but if they are, they should have a completely new system, and that should be a whole topic unto itself.

For reading, there is the Tale of the Heike, and The Tale of Genji. Also, Yoshitsune is apparently also good. I have plenty of books on warfare of the time, so I will give whatever ideas I can. Most of the famous legends of the day would easily be incorporated into the game, such as Yoichi's splitting of the fan with a well aimed arrow.

Main Characters
To clarify, Yoshitsune pretty much obliterated the Taira. The Minamoto-Taira wars had really lasted for centuries, going all the way back to the 'first Nobunaga,' Taira Masakado, who defied the emperor and was supposedly struck down by heaven (this may explain why Nobunaga was attracted to the Taira so much later). The period for the game was the decisive end of the long conflict, with many heroes, and was also very lyrical. The game should certainly begin during th peak of Taira Kiyomori's power, and if you play as him, you must consolidate the lands but manage to control your ambitious sons. As the Minamoto, you will play all the way until the final defeat of the Taira, with Yoshitsune's tragic death being the end. His brother, Yoritomo, upon becoming the first shogun, became a paranoid control freak and centralist. Many of his generals who had served him met ignoble ends, including his single greatest warrior; his brother, Yoshitsune. The 'third time through' will be the fictional 'comeback' story of Yoshitsune. We can talk about that later.
One thing about the story; Family allegiances were never guaranteed. Interfeuding was common, especially in the Minamoto clan (which partially explains why the Minamoto were always weaker than Taira). Minamoto Yoshinaka and his legendary wife, Tomoe Gozen, fought for the mighty Taira even though they were of the Minamoto clan.
Again stressing that no side was completely good or evil, there were heroes and villains on both sides. The Taira were indeed much older and vast, so they sort of play the part of 'evil empire' to the Minamoto's 'brave rebels,' but the characters tell the story. Important characters:
Minamoto Yoshitsune. Legendary swordsman who learned his art in exile with the monks. Said to be trained by demons and tengu, and never beaten. Also said to be somewhat short.
Minamoto Yoritomo. First Shogun of Japan and overall commander of the Minamoto forces. Was older brother to Yoshitsune. Foreshadowed the brutality of the office of Shogun by killing off all he deemd to be dangerous to his rule, including his brother, the beloved war hero. Cunning and political, and presumably able, but did not fight in most of the battles himself (so he would be about as strong as Cao Cao or something like that).
Benkei. Warrior monk and companion to Yoshitsune. Said to have sworn loyalty to Yoshitsune after being humbled in single combat on a bridge. Big and powerful, he popularized the image of a Sohei (warrior monk) with the Naginata (which was really just a widely used weapon at the time by all sorts of warriors)
Minamoto Yoshinaka. Defeated the Taira at Karika Pass, and captured the Capitol. Forced the emperor to proclaim him as the Shogun, so technically he was the first Shogun. However, Yoritomo declared him to be unrighteous and overly brutal (which was a justifiable claim, except that Yoritomo would become somewhat similar when he took power), and sent his army under Yoshitsune to destroy him.

Taira Kiyomori. Lord of the Taira. Once fought with Minamoto Yoshitomo (the head of the Minamoto clan.....who was no saint either, as he fought his father and relatives to secure that position) in the Hogen rebellion, but would later fight against him in another uprising. He defeated Yoshitomo in 1159, had him killed by a retainer, killed his two oldest sons, and sent the others into exile. Although he predated the system of the Shogun, he was the first Samurai lord to be the de facto ruler of Japan.
Taira Tomomori. Lord of the Taira after the death of Kiyomori. Commit honorable suicide at Dan no Ura, which he lost to the Minamoto. Most of the Taira (including the women and children) jumped into the water to drown. Tomomori was said to have jumped in with either two suits of armor or an anchor. To me, the anchor story seems more plausible, so that's what we should go with.
Taira Munemori. The classic villain of the Taira clan. Arrogant, cowardly, and a bully. Survived Dan no Ura because he did not kill himself. Later captured by the Minamoto and killed.
Taira Noritsune. Valiant Taira general. Tried to fight Yoshitsune in hand to hand combat at Dan no Ura, but was evaded. When he commit suicide, he was said to have jumped into the water taking a Minamoto samurai under each arm.
Taira Atsumori. Prodigious young Taira Samurai. Exceptional with the flute. Also said to be very fair and handsome. Probably wouldn't be extremely strong, but well rounded....playing the role of your Mori general in K3.

On a final note, most of the rebellions were instigated by meddlers in the royal court and the politically powerful monks of places like Mt. Hiei. That these so evidently caused the chaos is why Nobunaga would be so radical in his eventual desire to abolish them completely.

Here is some very nice artwork with brief descriptions of famous Samurai. We can get a few basic character design ideas from here.
http://horse.shrine.net/index.html
Being a videogame, we can still go outside of the bounds of historical costume at certain times.
My personal opinion is that these samurai actually did not always wear the elaborate armors to the field, but used the "artwork" kind for ceremonies, parades, and occasions when they would not be in the field. Museums show the fanciest types, but archeological work also shows that more simplified armor was worn at times. Of course, for the game, we want cool looking armor, but I think that some generals should outfit themselves in a more practical manner (most of the great warriors of history eschewed the peacock look). Some generals, such as the lesser clans, can also wear pre-heian armor, ancient decorations, and perhaps even Chinese/Indian inspired armor and weapons.

Samurai of this time did indeed use shields. They weren't like western shields at all, but more like the pavise, which would come into widespread use about 300 years later, with the infantry revolution that was spurred on by medieval armies in central Europe (Germany and its neighbors).

The shield was not used from horseback. It was carried by samurai when on foot for protection from arrows. It was made out of wood, and was very large (rectangle shaped), so it had no practical use in hand to hand fighting. Rather, it was used for protection from the mounted samurai and his bow, so that the wielder could get close enough to use his Naginata. It went out of popularity with the infantry revolution of Japan, which was brought on by the transfer away from the Bow as the primary weapon of the samurai.

So, long story short; Shields should have a part in the game with infantry units.

Troop Types
1. Ashigaru: Although not used as often as during the infantry revolution of the Sengoku era, samurai armies turned to peasant auxiliaries as was deemed by necessity. Fight primarily as Naginata soldiers.

2. Naginata Samurai: Basic foot unit. Can climb minor obstacles and low castle walls. Great for attacking fortifications and fighting in cramped quarters, but sitting ducks in the field against mounted troops.

3. Shieldbearers: Naginata samurai who carry a large wooden shield, similar to the pavise of the late medieval period in Europe. These are much better equipped for withstanding the horse and bow tactics of mounted samurai. The best way to take them down is by closing with them.

4. Mounted Samurai: The early samurai fought primarily as horse archers, fighting battlefield duels with those of worthy rank and birth. Excellent at their craft, and good at fighting at close range with their swords. Weak against mounted troops that are less chivalrous.....and progressive. Although archery duels were the goal of battles (similar to the joust in Europe), hectic melee was common as well. The more advanced samurai will also have an improved close combat rating.

5. Bowmen: Unlike in Europe, the bow was not considered a cowardly or womanlike weapon. Archery was a fine art to the Japanese. These may lack the prestige of the mounted samurai, but their skill is not to be underestimated.

6. Wako: During times of national crisis, disreputable men could always find someone to put them to good use for the right amount of coin. Wako, or Japanese pirates, were experts at raiding. They established a fierce reputation on the mainland, and were very much like the sea kings of the Nordic sagas. While they may have trouble holding up against professional soldiers on ground, they are invaluable for lightning raids and sea battles. Often eccentric in appearance and decorated with arms and armor from all around, their weapons can also vary greatly. Unfortunately, a jack of all trades is rarely a master of none.

Specialty troops
1. Tengu Swordsmen. Elite unit under the command of Yoshitsune. According to legend, Yoshitsune was trained by the mythical Tengu, the guardians of the martial arts and founders of the ninja arts. In truth, Yoshitsune was trained by the buddhist monks that looked after him in his exile as a boy, but this doesn't make the unit unbelievable. The appearance would be of demonic armor: Clawed feet, monstrous facemasks, and elaborate body armor. Expert swordsmen.

2. Tengu Horsemen. Same as above, but mounted. These come later in the game when the Minamoto have become more powerful again. These would be the main force behind Yoshitsune's legendary downhill charge (really down the face of a mountain) at Ichi no Tani.

3. The New Emperor's guard. (available to the Taira high captains--royalty) Taira Masakado was the first samurai to come to great fame and infamy. He declared himself the new emperor and seemed unstoppable until the first of the Minamoto rose up against him. Taira Tomomori was less ambitious, perhaps, but probably the most powerful man in Shinshu until the Shogunate came into existance. His troops would be very well equipped, motivated, and disciplined. Although he never reached for the Emperor's seat, there was undoubtedly a sense of pride in the mighty Taira legacy. These are the creme of the crop of the early samurai, able to match any adversary on horse or foot.

Timetable and progress of the characters in the story
K1 followed the families in their sides of the war (Tokugawa and Toyotomi), K2 focused on two warlords, and K3 focused on one warlord.
I think that a Gempei Kessen should follow the fortunes of the two great houses, Minamoto and Taira. The Minamoto clan came to prominence in the east, fighting rebels, brigands, and native Ainu. The Taira came to power in the west, famous for fighting insurrectionists, pirates, and invaders......and even playing the role of ursurper oen or two times.

Heroes arose on both sides, with the latest ones being the most famous. What I think is that the game shouldn't start with the final characters. I think it would be really great to have a Kessen that spanned a few generations. This would tell a much more compelling (and less cliche) story, and would do well in explaining the motives of each side.

Although the Minamoto and Taira (and to a lesser extent, the Fujiwara) fought on and off since the tenth century, the actual Gempei war began in the later 12th. The very first Minamoto, Tsunemoto, fought against the most famous Taira of all, Masakado (the 'replacement emperor')

I think the game should start with the two leading warlords who fought in the rebellions. The rebellions themselves would be a good starting point for either side. The 'flashbacks' would mostly tell of the long struggle and famous ancestors of both houses. Neither one would be the 'main' leaders during the actual Gempei war, but their actions set in motion the events that would decide the future of Japan.
Minamoto Yorimasa would be the first Minamoto general. He was brave and pious, but actually a poor commander.
Taira Kiyomori led the Taira to greater heights than ever before, being the first samurai warlord to be de facto ruler of Japan. Kiyomori was a famous warrior in his youth, and was powerful and respected in his later years. He defeated insurrectionists and Yorimasa. His life was marked by astounding successes, but sadly, disaster would follow for the Taira after his death.

Taking over for Kiyomori was Tomomori. Aided by his brothers, he fought the Minamoto armies at several decisive battles.
Following Minamoto Yorimasa was Yoshinaka. Yoshinaka was a great commander, and a chivalrous soldier. Unfortunately, he was a perfect soldier and nothing else. The traits that put a man in power are ussually the same ones that lead to his downfall. Yoshinaka was outfoxed by his cousin, Yoritomo, and killed.
The other rising star of the Minamoto clan was Yoritomo and his brother, Yoshitsune. The final part of the story would be the conflict between these and Taira Tomomori.

Character Personality types
examples:
Minamoto Yoshitsune- Chivalrous
Minamoto Yoritomo- Ambitious
Minamoto Yoshinaka- Savage
Tomoe Gozen- Loyal/Savage
Benkei- Loyal

Taira Kiyomori- Ambitious
Taira Tomomori- Ambitious/Disciplined
Taira Munemori- Savage
Taira Noritsune- Chivalrous
Taira Atsumori- Reserved

Ambitious would be obvious. The character would be very willing to fight in the front and would be a very good dueler, charger, etc.
Savage generals would be the ones that inflict the most casualties on the enemy in a melee. They are ruthless, dangerous, and reliable.
All generals are expected to be loyal, but those with the Loyal trait would be those who respect rank and position, even though they may have more experience. These would be the ones to trust for advice, like Mori Yoshinari from K3.
Disciplined generals are good at holding a line, even when morale is shot. These will also be sure to follow your commands, no matter how ignoble or suicidal their tasks may be.
Chivalrous commanders are the epitome of everything you want. The only difference is that they will be hesitant in fighting a severely weakened foe, and will lose morale if you have them massacre a village or something. Still, no one makes a better attack.
Reserved commanders are thinkers before anything else. Reserved types prefer to defeat the enemy by using their own designs against them. They can be trusted as a disciplined commander can, but can't hold their troops quite as well. No one is better to carry out a special task.

More on unit types and battlefield dynamics
When the camera is zoomed out, the armies should look of an appropriate size. If you are looking from a 'skycam,' the troops would be small. The transition from this view to 'in the action' would be seamless, but only when you are closed in should you be able to see the characters in detail.
Troop formations should determine, partly, the speed at which a unit moves.
Also, you should be able to detach your commander/lieutenant from the unit and leave it in the charge of another in the unit. This would be useful if you feel like breaking through to the enemy general, like Uesugi Kenshin at Kawanikajima, or for when you want to pursue and don't want to be slowed down by all of your troops. This would also be for when you feel like starting a 'rampage.' You could fight the enemy commander this way, but challenging him to a duel would be the best way to do it. If it was controllable, the duel would be on horseback. The horse wouldn't move stiffly, but he wouldn't move easily either. You could possibly dismount or even kill the enemy general, but there are many other things that could happen as well. Actually, I'll just save all of my ideas on this for the inevitable duel topic.

Cannons, for the Sengoku era games, shouldn't be automatically moved with the unit. You should have the option to pick them up and drop them, and obviously, they slow your unit down a bit. Because they are pulled by wagons, you would not be able to traverse certain terrains.

When the armies clash, that will be the time for squad tactics. You will be able to divide your lesser units for various moves, and so on.

Also, cannons, siege weapons, towers, etc. wouldn't need to have a general attached to them to be given orders. Some would be specialist units of only a few men. Some would be more.

Well that's it, for now. Feel free to contribute or critique, but please don't steal all of this without my permission. I really think this could work out for the best and I hope I wasn't too longwinded.
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Hondam
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Bravo, my friend. You have truely captured the essecnce of the Minamoto-Taira Era. I would personally like a game that is all about the Sengoku Jiidai (every Warlord, multiple stories, everything) but with a better battle system, etc like how you have described it. Bravo, again.

And for mods/GMs/Admins: Dont move this topic. It is fine right here, since he is writing.
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Hungry Wolf
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Thanks! I see you also like the history of the Samurai. That's my better area, since sources on Chinese history are harder to come by. I'll post more ideas for this and other games later.

I recommend everyone read the Tale of Heike to enter into the Gempei era. It makes a nice companion to Taiko, and is written by the same author.
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Hondam
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Hungry Wolf
Dec 6 2005, 06:24 AM
Thanks! I see you also like the history of the Samurai. That's my better area, since sources on Chinese history are harder to come by. I'll post more ideas for this and other games later.

I recommend everyone read the Tale of Heike to enter into the Gempei era. It makes a nice companion to Taiko, and is written by the same author.

Tale of Heike was written by Lord Yoshikawa? o_O

Taiko and Musashi. Best. Books. Evar. Period.
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Sean
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Wow. Wonderful write-up. I see we've found our two Japanese history scholars right here.

Tale of Heike? Is that related to Tale of Genji, written by Lady Murasaki?
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Hondam
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Sean
Dec 7 2005, 12:34 AM
Wow. Wonderful write-up. I see we've found our two Japanese history scholars right here.

Tale of Heike? Is that related to Tale of Genji, written by Lady Murasaki?

I'm reading Tale of Genji right now, and it so far is about a bunch of court politics and has nothing to do with war. But seeing as it was the first novel ever written, I have to give it a chance. >_>
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Hungry Wolf
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Sean
Dec 7 2005, 12:34 AM
Tale of Heike? Is that related to Tale of Genji, written by Lady Murasaki?

Tale of Heike mostly follows the story of Taira Kiyomori, who really was a great warlord despite anti-Taira sentiment being more popular traditionally. It was written in the 20th century by one of Japan's greatest authors, so it's a lot easier to read than the books of old.

Genji is about Yoshitsune, but it's really courtly and a lot about romance. Apparently Yoshitsune was the Don Johnson of the early samurai era.
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Sean
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HondaTadakatsu
Dec 6 2005, 08:22 PM
Sean
Dec 7 2005, 12:34 AM
Wow. Wonderful write-up. I see we've found our two Japanese history scholars right here.

Tale of Heike? Is that related to Tale of Genji, written by Lady Murasaki?

I'm reading Tale of Genji right now, and it so far is about a bunch of court politics and has nothing to do with war. But seeing as it was the first novel ever written, I have to give it a chance. >_>

Same here. I don't like it because it's too romantic, but hey. I have to read it because I chose this book for my English book report.

It's not that bad.
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