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Sun Shang Xiang; The tomboy princess....
Topic Started: Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:25 am (3,285 Views)
Little Conqueror of Jiang Dong
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江東之小霸王
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Kuki
May 11 2006, 01:54 AM
Not as many people could swim back then as they can now. In fact very few people could swim. If Sun Shang Xiang jumped into a river she could have very easily drowned. IN all likelihood though I don't think this happened historically...

Nope, Sun Shang Xiang did not commit suicide historically. As a matter of fact, given the few anecdotes about her we have in historical sources, it seems she didn't even like Liu Bei.
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AmbitiousConqueror
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lmao. Shang Xiang > Liu Bei.... i wonder if she could beat him in a real fight. One on one duel LOL.
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Mo Hae
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Han's Unifier
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Sun Shang Xiang was such a strong lady, very beautiful and just tough! :sly: Her and Liu Bei's relationship must have been interesting.
Edited by Mo Hae, Fri Apr 1, 2011 1:57 pm.
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Will
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God of Death in Gundam Wing
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AmbitiousConqueror
Nov 17 2006, 09:02 PM
lmao. Shang Xiang > Liu Bei.... i wonder if she could beat him in a real fight. One on one duel LOL.

imao Liu Bei > SSX Liu Bei has more experience while sun shang xiang never fought and rely on her guards... only zhao yun can tame them :P . She never liked liu bei I think and was given to marriage to liu zhang before that B)
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Little Conqueror of Jiang Dong
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Shadowlink
Nov 26 2006, 02:32 PM
AmbitiousConqueror
Nov 17 2006, 09:02 PM
lmao. Shang Xiang > Liu Bei.... i wonder if she could beat him in a real fight. One on one duel LOL.

imao Liu Bei > SSX Liu Bei has more experience while sun shang xiang never fought and rely on her guards... only zhao yun can tame them :P . She never liked liu bei I think and was given to marriage to liu zhang before that B)

No, she wasn't married to Liu Zhang. There's some confusion about that. Some internet sources say that she was, but she never was in either the novel or history.
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SlickSlicer
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Yes, I agree with your idea. I don't think she liked Liu Bei either, hence she kept those guards around to terrify him. :)
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Will
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:lol: i think she tried to scare the whole shu population with those guards thinking she is the boss. Poor SSX she was used as a poltically tool for her bro
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SlickSlicer
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She might not have liked Liu Bei, but I bet she liked screwing with him (err...that is....terrorizing him with her armed guards). >_>
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Will
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Kuki
Nov 27 2006, 02:02 PM
She might not have liked Liu Bei, but I bet she liked screwing with him (err...that is....terrorizing him with her armed guards). >_>

Hard to find that only the young... I mean old and handsome old man zhao yun can tame her and her guards :huh:
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Drewge
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Dong Zhuo
Nov 27 2006, 02:02 PM
She might not have liked Liu Bei, but I bet she liked screwing with him (err...that is....terrorizing him with her armed guards). >_>

HA! nice one. LIU BEI = PW3ND
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Mingchan
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Why wasn't the marriage consumated? In Chinese tradition, the marriage is consumated on the night of the wedding.
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Bamboo
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Hehe, was looking for a thread like this. My (kinda)weekly fact of the week thingy was based on Sun Shangxiang but together with the rest of my signature (and by itself) exceeded the limit. Personally I thought it was interesting, and so would not like it go to waste. Thus, here it is, hope it's a fair analysis:

Quote:
 
Three Kingdoms Fact of the ___________: Though the novel for the most part makes Lady Sun [Sun Shangxiang] out to have genuinely loved and was a dutiful wife towards Liu Bei, such a persona is questionable in history. After marrying in 209, she constantly had her one hundred ladies-in-waiting for her, all bearing arms. These women also caused havoc wherever they went and were unopposed until Zhao Yun disciplined them.

Zhuge Liang compared Lady Sun and the trouble she brought to Cao Cao and Sun Quan. In fact, at one point in time while Liu Bei was on the Yi campaign, on her brother's order she attempted to steal away back to Wu, taking the infant Liu Shan with her. Luckily, Zhao Yun and Zhang Fei were able to intercept the armed naval escort and recover Liu Shan through unclear means.

This event also appears in the RotK novel though justification is given through a fake letter saying Lady Wu, Sun Quan and Lady Sun's mother, was deathly ill. It also seeks to either bring closure to the saga and/or end Lady Sun's life as a filial wife as to make her drown herself in a river upon hearing a false rumor coming at the time of Yiling that Liu Bei was killed.[/spoiler]


Also, the marraige wasn't consumated? Haven't read Empresses and Consorts, but do any records state whether other marraiges were sealed (<-- didn't want to be so redundant :hehe: )?

Also also, the precedent this marraige sets is something of note (though admittedly not completely relevant to Shangxiang). I think most would agree that she did not love Liu Bei, and that this was more a political union than anything else. It may even be inferred[1] that she was a spy for Sun Quan.

Would this be the same for the proposal between Sun Quan's son and Guan Yu's daughter? [2] From what I've seen of the culture then, it may have been tradition for the woman to be sent to the man, so what if Yu's daughter had been taken hostage by Wu? They would then have powerful leverage in the form of the child of Liu Bei's protector of Jing, the province they coveted so and believed was rightfully theirs.

Whether they would actually take her hostage is only one of a few choices they could make, seeing that the marraige would join their [the ruler of Wu and one of Liu Bei's favored and most trusted generals] houses together and reinforcing their past alliance. This most likely would have sealed amity between Liu Bei and Wu for at least some period of time, though it's still entirely questionable whether the marraige could stop any future attack on Jingzhou by Sun Quan.

[1] forgot what I was going to say here, but it may have had something to do with Sun Quan actually ordering her to come back
[2] however unlikely this may have been; see Guan Yu's assholery for details, which are evident throughout most of his late career. What backs this claim up heavily is how he rudely rejects and even threatens Sun Quan when the latter offers military support on his siege on Fancheng.

Feedback is most appreciated.
Edited by Bamboo, Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:06 am.
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Dongzhou
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Liu Bei visited her bedchambers, with great reluctance, so I would assume so.

I think Guan Yu was right to be suspicious about the marriage proposal being a hostage situation, he just a little too blunt in his answer on that occasion.

Where is your fact of the week section?
Edited by Dongzhou, Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:44 am.
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GuoBia
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General
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Yes, Zhuge Liang was extremely suspicious of her and saw her as the potential source of a coupe. An actual coupe!

I mean look at her mother! You don't expect the Lady Wu to have any less of a badass daughter!

Lady Sun we love you! <333

(Consorts, trans.Cutter/Crowell)
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Bamboo
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*hail hydra*
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I'd probably suspicious of her too if I was in Zhuge Liang's place. :rolleyes:

@Dongzhou - it's in the spoiler tags in my signature. Usually it'll include some lesser known but cool tidbit about the TK history. Not sure how many people actually know about it or even care to look at the spoiler tags but surprisingly, it's pretty fun to do.

So far I've done things about: Cao Cao and Rui's alleged bisexuality, Zhang Liao's deeds before joining Lu Bu, the similar regency between Zhang Zhao and Zhuge Liang, the difference between the historical / novel deaths of Ma Teng, and a spotlight on Li Yan.

The latest one I think was how Zhang Jiao's DW voice actor was the greatest VA ever. :lol:
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Lady Succubus
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about all her armed and wild ladies in waiting i can see that as a new character direction in DW7, kinda like a biker-gang style thing lead by SSX
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Demonic Warrior
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I don't really know what to think of SSX. I don't like Wu in General, so I don't think she'd grow on me. And DW doesn't help, either.
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Crazypete
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check this out that i found interesting
according to kongming.net

ady Sun � Married to Liu Bei. Many folktales are written involving her and Liu Bei. The truth is hard to tell, but she is recorded as an advisor to Liu Shan, thus dispelling the story of her suicide after Liu Bei�s defeat at Yi Ling. She bore Liu no children, suggesting that the marriage was never consummated.

so her jumping in a river after Liu Bei's death is BS
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StrikeForce9
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Crazypete
Tue Feb 1, 2011 11:01 am
check this out that i found interesting
according to kongming.net

ady Sun � Married to Liu Bei. Many folktales are written involving her and Liu Bei. The truth is hard to tell, but she is recorded as an advisor to Liu Shan, thus dispelling the story of her suicide after Liu Bei�s defeat at Yi Ling. She bore Liu no children, suggesting that the marriage was never consummated.

so her jumping in a river after Liu Bei's death is BS
BS as in Luo Guanzhong made it up then yes. SSX jumping into a river was in the novel only. I read historically she remained in Wu even after Liu Bei's death. Don't know about her being an adviser to Liu Shan though.
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Xiuzhao
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----
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It is kinda difficult to be an advisor to someone in an entirely different kingdom. I'm pretty sure she stayed in Wu after Zhao Yun and Zhang Fei rescued Liu Shan from her.
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Wong Fei Hung
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Father: Sun Jian

Mother: Lady Wu

Siblings: Sun Ce, Sun Quan, Sun Yi, Sun Kuang, Sun Lang (half-brother. He was her full brother in Romance of the Three Kingdoms, as both of them were born to Lady Wu's fictional younger sister, who was known as Wu Guotai.)

Spouse: Liu Bei
Edited by Wong Fei Hung, Mon Apr 4, 2011 4:20 pm.
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bao cai
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she died one year before liu bei and you know in a strange kind of way i like her personality however i hate her because she was a bit cruel you know taking liu shan as a hostage allows me to hate her and i think she was a mere kitten not a tigress
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Dongzhou
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bao cai
Thu Apr 5, 2012 11:21 am
she died one year before liu bei and you know in a strange kind of way i like her personality however i hate her because she was a bit cruel you know taking liu shan as a hostage allows me to hate her and i think she was a mere kitten not a tigress
Sorry, what's your source for her year of death? In all the histories I know of, she vanishes once she leaves Liu Bei so I am curious.

Kitten seems harsh!

I can see the Liu Shan treatment was cruel but would say it was probably necessary if she wanted to escape. I more object to the actions of her maids when they entered Liu Bei's lands.
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bao cai
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dear dong zhou
if you have dynasty warriors 6 it has encyclopedia and it is written that shang has died in 222 AD and liu bei has died in 223 AD it is exactly what i said
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Joestar
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Yeah most accounts state that Sun Shangxiang died in 222AD, before Liu Bei's death but after Yiling. I could believe that she committed suicide, despite what many historical accounts say. It is said that she respected Liu Bei and saw him as a love but relations deteriorated. When Sun Quan ordered her to return, she did without question, probably using Liu Shan as a hostage to make Liu Bei return Jing before Guan Yu refused and Sun Shangxiang's return to Wu in 212AD. Deep down, i tell myself that she loved him because i'd love it to be true, that she supported him and his values at Yiling. However, i realize she probably disliked Liu Bei by Yiling and viewed him as a potential threat to her father's kingdom. I think the main problem was that she was historically noted to have been close to Sun Quan and Ce, and so would probably support her family over her love.

Edit: oops, just realized she left for Wu in 211AD
Edited by Joestar, Thu Apr 5, 2012 9:55 pm.
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