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Zhuge Liang; The Sleeping Dragon
Topic Started: Sat Dec 31, 2005 12:00 am (2,367 Views)
Sean
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Select a music!
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I have to do a report on ZGL. All of it will be based on the novel.
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Guan Yu's apprentice
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And so his first commander and boss has left this site.
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For what class? History? Social Studies? Chinese? Literature?
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Crazypete
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KW's Zhou Yu
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i don't believe that Zhuge Liang predicted the South East winds...i think its a bunch of crap....i hate Zhuge Laing..why?... he went behind Wu's back and stole their lands fromm them..and b/c of that Wu loses a great general Taichi Ci.. and at the battle of Bo Wan Po...he uses a hit and run tactic...smart but also a dangerous ploy..which can easily backfire...
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Will
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God of Death in Gundam Wing
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Zhou Yu
Jul 18 2006, 02:23 PM
i don't believe that Zhuge Liang predicted the South East winds...i think its a bunch of crap....i hate Zhuge Laing..why?... he went behind Wu's back and stole their lands fromm them..and b/c of that Wu loses a great general Taichi Ci.. and at the battle of Bo Wan Po...he uses a hit and run tactic...smart but also a dangerous ploy..which can easily backfire...

hey hey zhuge liang was wu's friend. Novel yes he was a asshole but a smart asshole. and Taishi ci already died before Hefei. Too bad wu and shu cant work togheter. Liu bei gave back the lands to wu :D Friends?
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Red Knight
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God of War
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That was just because his brother and nephew joined Wu. I mean, really. Zhuge Liang didn't reall like Wu, well, Zhou Yu at least.
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Hebi
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Fukushu suruwa ware ni ari !!
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Zhou Yu
Jul 18 2006, 04:23 PM
i don't believe that Zhuge Liang predicted the South East winds...i think its a bunch of crap....i hate Zhuge Laing..why?... he went behind Wu's back and stole their lands fromm them..and b/c of that Wu loses a great general Taichi Ci.. and at the battle of Bo Wan Po...he uses a hit and run tactic...smart but also a dangerous ploy..which can easily backfire...

For the south east wind, I read somewhere that it was thanks to a fisher's advice (to Zhou Yu), he could predicted that the wind was about to change, judjing by the mist on the surface of the water.
It's just basic meteorology.
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Will
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God of Death in Gundam Wing
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How was it basic meteorology? I don't see anything about wind in zhou yu bio or in cao cao bio.
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Hebi
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Fukushu suruwa ware ni ari !!
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Well, for predicting the weather, I mean, it's just meteorology ^^ nothing magic about that.
Yep, that science existed way before the invention of the sattelites, you know...
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Will
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God of Death in Gundam Wing
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ah yes I agree. nothing magic about that.
Well people in the past arent as smart people nowadays probaly know 10x as more.
Science like that wasnt put into theory though =/.
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Red Knight
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God of War
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Some people now adays know 10x as more. Not all of them. Zhuge Liang was a genius. Science like was put into theory at some point in time, but not by ZGL.
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Bao Lung
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{*First Strategist*}
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Hmmm....well saying that hes cunning and stuff, I'd say he and Sima Yi may be evenly matched. He is a good strategist and helped in the battle of Chibi and was quite a role, so yeah, he's swell and good.
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Red Knight
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God of War
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Sima Yi beat Zhuge on a few occasions. The whole "wind-summoning" thing at Chi Bi probably never happened. Zhuge's biggest mistake was not taking over from Liu Bei after he died.
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Shogun
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~
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Sima Yi vs Zhuge Liang, Zhuge Liang was the better field commander, I have no doubt. Every battle between the two led to Sima Yi's embarassment. Zhuge Liang, himself, though, wasn't that great of a commander, which means even less for Sima Yi. Sima Yi, though, was a much better judgement of talent. Think about the two stars that they picked up over their years... Zhuge Liang has Ma Su and Jiang Wei. Sima Yi has Deng Ai. That alone trumps anyone that Zhuge Liang endorsed (Li Yan, for example).

As far as politics go, they were both talented, but I feel neither has the advantage here. Their qualities were in different areas. Zhuge Liang was a genius at public order and law making, while Sima Yi was a genius of political maneuvering and application of talent.

As far as future rule goes, Sima Yi was superior to Zhuge Liang. Once Zhuge Liang was gone, how he made his system required the ministers of Shu to split the title of Prime Minister into two pieces, and Liu Chan even abolished the title altogether. Thus, power was left to Jiang Wan and Fei Yi. Sima Yi, though, build a government that lived proudly and powerfully long after his death, despite the lack of governing skill in Sima Shi and Sima Zhao.

Overall, I'd choose Sima Yi. But the balance is not so obviously tipped.
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Mingchan
Commander
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Zhuge Liang should've kicked Liu Chan off. That's what Sima's grandson did. The biggest mistake the Sleeping Dragon made was clossing it's eyes to the emperor of Shu.
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Alfie
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It's time to kick some ass and chew bubblegum...
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He would, out of respect for Liu Bei methinks.
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Shogun
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For why I view Sima Yi over Zhuge Liang... it is not a matter I truely wish to debate. Simply put, I feel that Sima Yi more often accomplished what he set out to do. He employeed whatever means he needed to win, and when he couldn't win, he was smart enough to force Zhuge into a stalemate and wait for him to retreat. Though it is obviously harder to take something than it is to hold something, I feel that Zhuge Liang, if he was better, should have won.

I use this example to make my view more clear. When we look at Fan, Guan Yu made the choice to attack, and in doing so, he had control over the situation. Yet, because he was unable to accomplish his goal, Cao Ren was able to hold out until Wei launched enough reinforcements to drive Guan Yu back. In Zhuge's case, he kept attacking, thus having more control over the situation, yet was forced to retreat over and over again. Now, in this case, does the fact that Cao Ren did nothing more than hide immediatly make Guan Yu better? I think we can all agree that Cao Ren was better than Guan Yu, so I see no reason to draw this out anymore.

While there are many differences between those two battles, I think you understand my point. If Zhuge set out 6 times to take something, then he should have been able to see more success, since he had control over when, where, and how the attack was done. Rather than only look at Sima vs. Zhuge in terms of the northern campaigns, I look at them both overall. Zhuge did not see repeated successes even though he set out many times, unlike Cao Cao, Zhou Yu, Lu Meng, Liu Bei, etc. Sima Yi also did not (his failing against Wu before the Northern campaigns, for example), but he also did not lose nearly as often IMO.
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Red Knight
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God of War
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Sima beat the crap through Zhuge time and time again.
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Shogun
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Sima Yi got jerked around a bit by Cao Cao but was fine under Cao Pi and Cao Rui, he was even made joint Regent of Cao Rui's child son. Cao Shuang, the other Regent, he forced Sima Yi to fake sickness but Sima Yi regained control later. Sima Yi never showed bitterness towards Wei over that.

No matter how Sima Yi may/may not have been treated by the Cao family, he was always loyal to the state of Wei and his actions were an attempt to rectify the decline of Cao rule. His sons acted quite differently.

Zhuge Liang however, was demoted, performing campaigns that ended in complete failure.
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Will
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God of Death in Gundam Wing
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I would pick Zhuge liang for my field commander, because he did pretty good and minimize the damage, if Wu hadnt taken jingzhou maybe they would have did a Guan Yu again but with Wu helping them. We all know Guan yu is going to lose but someone is bound to get up there. Zhuge liang as a prime minister was far better than Sima Yi and you can see it by reading his civil admin abilities, that being said many people like zhuge liang as a civil officer. Anyways back to the point Zhuge liang could win against Sima Yi but he has supplies troubles getting around the mountains which hinder him. Sima Yi did not defeat Zhuge liang, he stalemate, Zhuge liang lure him out several times and opnly Zhang He defeated Zhuge liang. Sima Yi also order Zhang He to his death by a ambush -_-. Zhuge liang can not see talent like Yang Yi, and Ma su but Jiang Wan, Fei Yi and Dong Yun were pretty good and when Liu Shan listen to them the same was in peace, I suggest you read up on them.
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Shogun
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Sima sending out other officers, that only occured with Zhang He (at least, as far as I am aware). Sima had nothing to do with the first 3 northern campaigns, so Wang and others you may be refering to had no orders from Sima.

I view Jie Ting, or more aptly the entire 1st campaign, Chen Cang, the 4th campaign, and a battle mentioned in Guo's (iirc) bio to be losses for Zhuge. That would make nanman, 3rd campaign, Wang and Zhang ambushes as victories, by my count.

Sima, on the other hand, has a lost battle against Wu and one (as far as I recall) loss against Zhuge total, whereas there are 6 or so victories listed throughout this thread.
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Red Knight
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God of War
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Sima Yi had the better war record and was a better administrator.
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Shogun
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Zhuge Liang was the one who got overconfident. He grew overconfident in his friends' ablities (both Ma Su and Li Yan). He grew overconfident in his ability to humble the enemy (which came back to bite him in the tush when he faced Hao Zhao). He grew overconfident in his own authority (which caused the enmity with Wei Yan).

Sima Yi, though, was confident in his own abilities, but more confident in others. He had a judge of character that Zhuge Liang lacked. Where Zhuge Liang placed Ma Su, Sima Yi placed Hao Zhao and Wang Shuang. Where Zhuge Liang placed Li Yan, Sima Yi placed Guo Huai. Where Zhuge Liang placed Jiang Wei, Sima Yi placed Deng Ai. In all of those comparisons, Sima Yi's judgement was superior. In the end, his judgement to stay inside the city was superior as well.

Zhuge Liang was hard to replace because he didn't give anyone else political authority. Even if they had rank, he did all the work himself. A real lack of foresight, if you ask me, to make an entire nation depend on one person. As I see it, that's a chunk of the reason Shu went down the tubes after his death. What strength it did have was held up by Fei Yi, Jiang Wan, and other politicians.

I would mark Zhuge Liang, here, as Smart. Perhaps Clever. This, however, goes against Zhuge Liang's own beliefs (he was Taoist). He wasn't the Uncarved Block he was supposed to be, he was, instead, using theory where he should have used experience. Not much more can be expected from someone who touted their intellectual superiority since they were a child.

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Red Knight
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God of War
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Sima Yi despite not being a Taoist was the near perfect embodiment of the Uncarved Block. Sima Yi also could have been replaced by Guo Huai, Wang Shuang or Deng Ai if he died before 251 AD.
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Shogun
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If anything Zhuge was inferior for attacking so many times when it was doomed to fail every time instead of preparing better and turning a campain into a win. When you know how an enemy is going to fight you should take advantage of the weakness and Zhuge never did that on a large enough scale.
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Red Knight
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God of War
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By about Jie Ting, Sima Yi, with no knowledge of Sun Tzu's Art Of War, had acquired a substantial knowledge of Zhuge's battle plan.
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