Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Hello and welcome to KOEI Warriors (Forum), the official leading Rank 1 forum of ZetaBoards free online service of thousands of message boards aimed at video gaming; specifically the best KOEI TECMO fan site online! With over 35,000 forum members already a part of the community and millions of comments recorded! Thank you for visiting, we hope you enjoy the message board!

You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. By signing up and experiencing KOEI Warriors message board you will have access to features that are member-only such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, voting in recognized polls, and more importantly discussion and the latest news from KOEI TECMO with fellow fans of their products. Our Members Only section via joining will grant you KOEI Warriors graphics, downloads and more.

We also have social network pages on Facebook, Twitter and a videos channel on YouTube, so please find us there.

If you need any help please don't hesitate to ask a member of staff/moderator. Thank you.


Regards,
KOEI Warriors Staff Team


Join our community at KOEI Warriors (Forum)!

Already a member? Welcome back, please login here and enjoy KOEI Warriors (Forum).

Username:   Password:
Locked Topic
Zhuge Liang; The Sleeping Dragon
Topic Started: Sat Dec 31, 2005 12:00 am (2,365 Views)
Shogun
Member Avatar
~
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
If the roles had been reversed, there's no way Sima Yi would risk invading Wei and Zhuge Liang; Yi would have done what he did best, namely strengthen the authority of his ruler and see to the defenses of his kingdom. And I don't envision Sima Yi losing a stronghold like Han Zhong to an attack, as he would have placed proper talent to ensure its survival.

In the end, I can see Yi biding his time until the inevitable clash between Wei and Wu, and then proceeding to begin an invasion to the north if ZL was tied up in the east, or possibly Jing (if it looked as though Wu would be defeated.)
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Red Knight
Member Avatar
God of War
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Zhuge had joined Shu by AD 207 so the role reversal scenario couldn't have happened. Sima Yi had joined Cao Cao in the early 210s and was Secretary of Literature at Xu Chang before his big break at Fan Cheng.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Shogun
Member Avatar
~
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
From a defensive standpoint, Zhuge probably had the best position, atleast from the North, with control of Han Zhong. True Wei had more resources and land, but they were also fighting and defending on two fronts (Shu and Wu). I'd say that Sima definatly accomplished more than Zhuge did, considering the results of Zhuge's Northern Campaigns and how Sima Yi strengthened Wei after Cao Shuang lost power.

And even if you do switch their places, I don't see any reason that Zhuge would've been able to take Han Zhong from Sima Yi if he couldn't even take Chang An.

As for the reverse subject, had it been carried out, then everything would be much easier and this topic's answer would be decided.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Red Knight
Member Avatar
God of War
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Sima Yi managed to defend Wei from Wu and Shu pretty well with assisstance from other Wei generals. Man Chong defended He Fei and Hao Zhao guarded Chen Cang.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Shogun
Member Avatar
~
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Sima Yi was a straight forward pragmatic general. When he had overwhleming numbers he was going to use them to his advantage or when he had defensive structures, stick to them. When he saw an opporotunity to attack against an enemy's weakness he would take it. He was good at judging people and had skill convincing people with words. That being said, he was frequently impatient and this can been seen in through several of his strategies. He is the type of general who could score a victory like Guan Du or fall into a disaster like Chi Bi. He also could be seen as inflexible in his tactical abilities, though so was Zhuge Liang.

Zhuge Liang was a general with some very grand plans. He spent a long time trainging his troops and managing supplies. He established a strong defensive strategy for Han Zhong and laid out a good plan for uniting China to Liu Bei. His strategies for his campaigns show a strong knowledge of the likes of Sun Tzu and he was careful not to fall prey to enemy traps. However he had a very poor judgement of the characters of his suboridnates and generally handled the Meng Da situation horrendously. He also seemed to develop an "Ahab" complexity for campaigning north and did so at an alarming rate. His tactical abilities were lacking (as where Sima Yi) and he had a hard time stablizing and holding land he had taken.

Overall the men were similiar in many ways. A lot of who was better hinges on the campaign of 231. In notes in Zhuge Liang's Biography it records a great victory for the Shu. In Jin Shu it records a great victory for Sima Yi and a crushing blow dealt to Shu. All in all, the truth is hard to find and is probably somewhere in between the two.

As to who was the better general? Depends on your taste and for what task. Zhuge Liang was more patient and had more conservative and sound plans. Sima Yi had the aggressiveness to push forward and deal a death blow to his opponent. However, in reversed roles, I believe that Zhuge Liang would deal Sima Yi a crushing blow, so I guess I will say that Zhuge Liang was better by a hair.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Red Knight
Member Avatar
God of War
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
The campaign in 231 was a tie. Sima Yi was brought in after the debacle at Tian Shui and Meng Da's rebellion.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Shogun
Member Avatar
~
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
When Zhang He and others under Sima Yi's command lost, I saw it as a defeat for Sima Yi. Even though he wasn't directly commanding the troops that lost to Shu, he was in charge of the officers who were commanding the troops that lost to Shu, which meant that by extension, he lost as well (because of the same reasoning, I find that Jieting was a loss for Zhuge as well, so I'm not just discriminating against Sima Yi here). I realize that Cao Zhen (I think?) was in command during the first few campaigns of Shu's, and I even said that Zhuge Liang defeated Wang Shuang during his retreat from Chen Kuang (which was before Sima Yi had command) in the post before my last. I don't view any instances where Zhuge Liang retreated due to lack of supplies or false imperial summons (thanks to Li Yan ) to be defeats for Zhuge Liang. Rather they were draws because neither Wei or Shu won. This means that by my count it's still 2-3 losses for Zhuge (Jieting and Chen Kuang, and POSSIBLY another that I'm unaware of) and quite a few victories. It also means that you can add 2 extra defeats to Sima Yi for the two times that Sima Yi sent out Zhang He to get defeated by Zhuge Liang.

Basically I think that Sima Yi's and Zhuge Liang's battle records are both good, in case the intent of this post was confusing. They each had their losses but I think their victories outweighed these defeats...
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Red Knight
Member Avatar
God of War
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Sima Yi scored the greatest victory after Zhuge had kicked the bucket. He usurped power from the weak and ineffective Cao family.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Shogun
Member Avatar
~
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
He also faked his illness. Sima was always loyal to the Cao family. However, his sons were not.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Red Knight
Member Avatar
God of War
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Sima Yi's sons weren't loyal because Sima Yi had put them both in powerful jobs. They wanted more power for themselves which was Sima Yi's goal after the Northern Campaigns.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Shogun
Member Avatar
~
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Which is why they took advantage of Cao Shuang, the Sima family were the only ones who held actual power in Wei. Wei's court began to be a joke.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Red Knight
Member Avatar
God of War
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Wei's court was a joke the day Cao Pi died. Who forced Cao Huan to abdicate again?
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Shogun
Member Avatar
~
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
He agreed to give up his power because his family were under the control of others, his power was later lost by the Sima family. A little similar to early Edo Period.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Red Knight
Member Avatar
God of War
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Could you explain to me how early Jin was similar to early Edo@
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Shogun
Member Avatar
~
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
I think it's similar because certain leaders(who actually held power)in the Edo Period kept families of retainers, this prevented betrayals and encouraged retainers at the same time. When I said 'kept families' I meant until the retainer returns to Edo for his family.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
SlickSlicer
-
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Bumping this up.

Quote:
 
He won a lot of battles, ambushed and had Zhang He killed at Mumen, ambushed and had Wang Shuang killed after Chen Cang, was more or less successful in dealing a lot of damage whilst taking few casualties in his campaigns after the first 2 or 3, and overall managed to stabilize Shu-Han and turn it into a military powerhouse following Liu Bei's disastrous defeat at Yiling.

Personally, I think that maybe Liu Bei compares, but as an actual sovereign in Yizhou his record was mixed with successes and failures. Zhang Fei doesn't even come close.


I think he's Shu's best, by far.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
the red clift
Member Avatar
Indonesian Warrior
[ *  * ]
Who was killed zhunge liang? :?:
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Dongzhou
Supreme Warrior-Scholar
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Wang Shuang and Zhang He in ambushes when Liang retreated if we are not counting executions of Shu officers
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
SilentNinja
Changshan Savior
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Rip off Zhao Yun's Empty Castle right out of 16 Strategies.

Oh wait, Kongming IS a selfish officer. :rolleyes:
Edited by SilentNinja, Sun Mar 8, 2009 11:50 pm.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Dongzhou
Supreme Warrior-Scholar
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Yeah, that Zhuge Liang finding a way to rebirth as LGZ and write a novel where he does that :rolleyes:
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
SilentNinja
Changshan Savior
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
"god" complex to the extreme....
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Travman1
Sergeant
[ * ]
Definitely a favorite of mine from the The Kingdoms era
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
the red clift
Member Avatar
Indonesian Warrior
[ *  * ]
You Know....At Indonesian Tionghoa,ZhugeLiang Is called CukatLiang.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
a0002073
Sergeant
[ * ]
the red clift
Sun Mar 8, 2009 6:27 am
Who was killed zhunge liang? :?:
No one. He was dead because of sick
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
« Previous Topic · Archives · Next Topic »
Locked Topic

Composed & Designed by, ©KOEI Warriors, 2005-2017. All rights reserved.