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| Akechi Mitsuhide: Betrayer to the Oda; This is for you Akechi Mitsuhide fans | |
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| Topic Started: May 29 2006, 07:41 AM (4,482 Views) | |
| Kanetsugu Naoe | May 29 2006, 07:41 AM Post #1 |
First Lieutenant
  ![]](http://209.85.122.85/static/1/pip_r.png)
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Oh yes, this is going to be an interesting poll. Everyone, let out your opinions, tell everyone why you think Mitsuhide should betray Oda or why he should never betray Oda. This is a general forum, so feel free to tell you honest opinions about Mitsuhide. But remember, use your thoughts before you look into the books for more info about what Mitsuhide did. Til then, send out your thoughts. And vote now! Sincerelly, Kanetsugu Naoe 
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| masanori | May 29 2006, 11:07 AM Post #2 |
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First Lieutenant
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I guess you think he should have, huh? XD There's only two votes there and one is for and one is against :| Historically, from what I know... I assume he had some valid reasons. While I am a bit annoyed by the whole loyalty issue (it just annoys me that he went off to betray Nobunaga while most others seemed quite happy) I suppose that if he had real reasons that weren't like Kessen's (I want your land and your wife :lol:) then it's acceptable. Especially if Nobunaga was that mean to him - even if other people could take it and Mitsuhide was just emotionally weak and overly sensitive, I'll accept his betrayal. I guess being insulted all the time is a valid reason to go up in arms and kill someone even though you're obviously trusted............  In the game, however... NO NO NO! Mitsuhide is an emo child and so flakey! The fact that it takes the murder of his friend and his lord to make him realise something really stupid annoys me so much (besides, I don't really understand what it is he actually realises anyway) XD And from what I've seen in SW2... he changes his mind/regrets it anyway! FLAKE. If you're going to betray someone so violently, at least go through with it! I don't understand going to such lengths to betray someone and then being unsure at the end - if you're not 100% sure you want to kill him then .... well, rebellion to that extreme is a bit much, non? |
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| Divine Justice | May 29 2006, 03:10 PM Post #3 |
L's True Successor
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I said yes and no. Yes, because supposedly he would publicly insult Mitsuhide, he killed his mother, etc. No, because Nobunaga was a great man, and had put much trust in officers like Mitsuhide. |
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"If you can't beat the game, if you can't solve the puzzle, you're nothing but a loser." 俺様こそ、あ、日本一！ | |
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| Dw_Angel | May 29 2006, 04:24 PM Post #4 |
KW stalker
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i choose both yes and no |
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| SlickSlicer | May 29 2006, 04:58 PM Post #5 |
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Unregistered
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How can you say both yes and no?! I voted "no" as what Mitsuhide did was just pointless and only resulted in more wars, chaos, and the ascension of a corrupt, oppressive tyrant. And "no" there is no justification for what Mitsuhide did. I don't care if Nobunaga might have indirectly had his mother killed, the fact of the matter is that Mitsuhide's stupid whim ended up causing more warfare than was needed, for Oda Nobunaga probably could have unified Japan and would not have attempted something so ambitious as trying to conquer Korea and China. |
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| LoW | May 29 2006, 07:23 PM Post #6 |
This guy definitely isn't a rock anymore....
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Uh, yes, there can be "Yes and No" answer. Yes, because Mitsuhide had good personal reasons to do that. Nobunaga humialated him, talked trash about him, executed generals, who Mitsuhide had made promises and finally, killed his mother. Anyone, and I mean ANYONE in Mitsuhide's situation would have tried to do something against Nobunaga (perhaps not rebelled, but something else). I've also heard a rumour, that the relationship between Nobunaga and Ranmaru, made Mitsuhide jealous or something. No, because like Kuki stated, his rebellion brought more chaos, war and really confusing situation. But Kuki, you're fogetting something REALLY important here: No Mitsuhide's rebellion = No raise of Hideyoshi and Tokugawa. So, it wasn't completely pointless. |
 This sig still rules, thanks to Mr. Honda >_>. LoW's DWSF Material Locations Guide available now. Check it out! | |
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| masanori | May 29 2006, 08:06 PM Post #7 |
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First Lieutenant
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there I was trying to be diplomatic :rolleyes: |
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| Maikana | May 29 2006, 10:10 PM Post #8 |
Lady Dragon
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I've read up, a bit, and I've read the stories that Mitsuhide's mother was killed by Oda as an example for some reason or other, but they say that didn't come up until many, many years afterwards, almost 50-100 years into the period of peace Japan had. There's other stories, like Oda yelling at Mitsuhide publically, like at dinners or formal meetings for supposedly messing something up. Such things are embarressing for Samurai, and it's said that it must have made him extreamly upset. I voted yes and no. Nowadays, it looks wrong and whiney for someone to betray another for scolding, but back then it was a pretty big thing, and if a Big Bad Bully Daimyo punched you in the face...Well...think of it this way: In the 1950s, we know that there were gangs and gang fights and gang wars. If you were the leader of your gang, you had to remain so by messing up as many people as possible, particularly if anyone challenged your leadership. Otherwise, people would think you're a wimp or something. If you were the one who seemed to be just an unknowing threat to the leader, you get picked on a lot. People expect you to fight back, otherwise YOU look like a wimp too. And there you have the two best candidates for leaders wimping out for some reason or other. My guess is that Mitsuhide was as much competition for Oda as Hideyoshi was. Perhaps he didn't know it, so when Oda yelled at him, he bit his tongue and only sent glowering looks behind his back. Finally, her couldn't take it anymore, so he 'betrayed' Oda, got rid of him to prove his strength, then, to preserve whatever bit of honor he might've had, he commits seppoku and is known as a hero: He proved he's not wimpy and he preserved some honor. In other words: It's bad to be considered a wimp, but it's worse to lose your honor. In the game, considering the fact that we don't see any private meetings outside of any 'critical' game moments, we cannot say much. We can only assume based on what we have, and while the game has a plot and a story, it's more of a hack-and-slash, so we have to gather what we can from dialogues in the middle of fighting sequences. Though, I have to say, Mitsuhide did some good. If it hadn't been for him, Oda would have run everything longer, and all the peace would be delayed, if it appeared at all. He also boosted Hideyoshi's rep and place, thus moving history along to what we have today. I dunno. I tend to connect everything that doesn't belong and take things apart that do belong. >.> |
| "The river is a river. It goes where it wills, without restraint. If it just happens to wish to go over its edges, or drown a man, no castle doors will stop it.” | |
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| Hondam | May 30 2006, 05:01 AM Post #9 |
轟
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This topic is leaning towards History, so I'm gonna move it. |
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「じゃあなんで、侍 ってのか生きてんだと思う？」 「世に生き様を示すため」  Arigato to Blackkite. 
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| SlickSlicer | May 30 2006, 05:10 AM Post #10 |
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I meant that Mitsuhide's rebellion itself was pointless, not that historically it had no impact or anything like that. Mitsuhide rebelled and set himself up as Shogun but he didn't get far at all. He "reigned" 13 days before he and almost his entirely family and all their retainers were completely annhilated. |
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| Lord Shibata | May 31 2006, 12:11 AM Post #11 |
Oddjob's Protege
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I voted yes, because he was just to badly mistreated, and Nobunaga actually admired him behind his back. Also I just dislike Nobunaga and think the look on his face when he saw Akechi troops would be priceless. |
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Huh! Now we must find what comfort we can in death! One of us must make it through the enemy lines and avenge the death of our lord!-Shibata Katsuie, Kessen 3 Fleeting dream paths, in the summer night! O bird of the mountain, carry my name beyond the clouds.-Shibata Katsuie's death poem Sooner a quick death in battle than a slow death from thirst!-Shibata Katsuie at the Battle of Chokoji | |
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| Maikana | May 31 2006, 01:05 AM Post #12 |
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Lady Dragon
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True, it may have been a bit strange...but I think the guy just had a point to prove to Nobunaga...I guess in the end it really didn't work out too well, but he did get (in)famous for it. Heh. I guess there are always two sides to the story. But you never know what the person is thinking. They may have a plain reason that justifies it in their mind, but it hardly makes up for anything in actuality. Who's got a time machine? :rolleyes: |
| "The river is a river. It goes where it wills, without restraint. If it just happens to wish to go over its edges, or drown a man, no castle doors will stop it.” | |
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| masanori | May 31 2006, 07:18 PM Post #13 |
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First Lieutenant
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I don't really understand the argument for Mitsuhide's rebellion revolving around his insults/scolding etc. from Nobunaga... I mean, if everyone else can take his crap, why couldn't Mitsuhide? And even if it was because of that, he should have just killed himself out of spite and removed a good officer from Nobunaga's army, like other people did/were rumoured to have done XD |
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| Hondam | Jun 1 2006, 11:01 AM Post #14 |
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Pride and honor was above all else back then. It shouldnt be any surprise that Mitsuhide would get pissed after Nobunaga did said things. |
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「じゃあなんで、侍 ってのか生きてんだと思う？」 「世に生き様を示すため」 Arigato to Blackkite.
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| SlickSlicer | Jun 1 2006, 11:11 AM Post #15 |
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How the hell was Mitsuhide badly treated by Oda? People were f*cking tortured back in those days. The worst Oda did was criticize Mitsuhide on a few occassions, but at other times he went to extreme lengths to praise Akechi (for example when he was mad at Sakuma he praised Mitsuhide and said Sakuma should be more like him). I really would like some evidence of how Mitsuhide was treated badly enough by Nobunaga that would merit Mitsuhide's betrayal.
Oh come on Sasuke. Samurai were supposed to be loyal to their lord. Mitsuhide was just a p*ssy if he actually betrayed Nobunaga just because he was insulted by him. It's pretty crystal clear that Mitsuhide was ambitious and simply used excuses such as your's as petty propaganda. He just wanted power and saw an opportunity to get it. |
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| Hondam | Jun 1 2006, 11:13 AM Post #16 |
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People were pissy back then, Slick. I think all you can hope for in this scenario is that whatever Nobunaga did, Mitushide didnt like it. Really all there is to it. |
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「じゃあなんで、侍 ってのか生きてんだと思う？」 「世に生き様を示すため」 Arigato to Blackkite.
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| SlickSlicer | Jun 1 2006, 11:18 AM Post #17 |
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Or Mitsuhide's advisors just suggested to him that an opportunity to take power had arisen and Mitsuhide took advantage of the situation. Really all there is to it. |
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| Hondam | Jun 1 2006, 11:20 AM Post #18 |
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轟
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xd I love how you do your little mock/sarcastic thing towards someone else. But yes, that could've also been the cause. |
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「じゃあなんで、侍 ってのか生きてんだと思う？」 「世に生き様を示すため」 Arigato to Blackkite.
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| LoW | Jun 1 2006, 01:24 PM Post #19 |
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This guy definitely isn't a rock anymore....
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Killing Mitsuhide's mother was at least one of the reasons why he got pissed off. I'm certain anyone here would became really angry for the person who killed your close family members. Yes, even Nobunaga did, or so I've heard. His brother (uncle or nephew, not sure) was killed by Ikko-rebels. Nobunaga got pissed off and slaughtered many of them. Not sure did this lead to Battle of Ise-Nagashima though. Slick, please try to profide some proof why Mitsuhide would have done that only because of power... |
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This sig still rules, thanks to Mr. Honda >_>. LoW's DWSF Material Locations Guide available now. Check it out! | |
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| Crazypete | Jun 1 2006, 05:52 PM Post #20 |
KW's Zhou Yu
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<_< hmm i don't believe Mitsiuhide was killed by a simple peasant spear... |
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| masanori | Jun 1 2006, 07:23 PM Post #21 |
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First Lieutenant
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While killing for revenge wasn't exactly unusual, Nobunaga wasn't really betraying his Lord by doing so... which is exactly what Mitsuhide was doing. That's the reason I personally don't agree with his betrayal - whatever his reasons were for his betrayal, he shouldn't have betrayed his own lord. He shoulda killed himself! Yeah. It's just completely stupid if it really was because he supposedly felt insulted. You can keep saying "Pride and honor was above all else back then" til the cows come home, but the fact is that Nobunaga was a weirdo and he insulted and called other people pretty rude things but nobody else felt the need to stab him in the back. I actually hope Mitsuhide was greedy for power - at least then there'd be a semi-legitimate reason for his betrayal <_< |
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| LoW | Jun 1 2006, 08:07 PM Post #22 |
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This guy definitely isn't a rock anymore....
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Well, Nobunaga actually insulted Mitsuhide much more than other generals. While he only called Hideyoshi as "Monkey" or "Bald Rat", he kept insulting Mitsuhide in public and even his poetry. And I believe he didn't only do it because of insults, surely there have been other reasons as well. Like:
I would consider event like that more than an insult. So before you're only going to blame Mitsuhide for his actions, think about Nobunaga for a second. Are you seriously saying that he was completely innocent for Mitsuhide's actions? I don't think so... |
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This sig still rules, thanks to Mr. Honda >_>. LoW's DWSF Material Locations Guide available now. Check it out! | |
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| Maikana | Jun 1 2006, 08:40 PM Post #23 |
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Lady Dragon
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Others seemed to be "fine" with it because he would kill them otherwise. I don't think many of them knew what they were getting into when they first joined. I bet they really began regretting it when they saw how screwed up Nobunaga was in the head. It probably creeped them out to have a Daimyo who was evil because 'It's fun to be bad', but they can't say much because he'll chop their heads off with his pretty sword. |
| "The river is a river. It goes where it wills, without restraint. If it just happens to wish to go over its edges, or drown a man, no castle doors will stop it.” | |
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| Hondam | Jun 1 2006, 08:48 PM Post #24 |
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Because Koei has made him out to be a pretty-boy swordmaster, right? Mitsuhide was old, selfish, ugly, and was not known for his skill with a sword. Getting stabbed by a peasent is a fitting death for someone so selfish. |
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「じゃあなんで、侍 ってのか生きてんだと思う？」 「世に生き様を示すため」 Arigato to Blackkite.
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| Crazypete | Jun 1 2006, 08:58 PM Post #25 |
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KW's Zhou Yu
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ah i see thanks for the info.... hmm man come to think of it SW is VERY misleading... |
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