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| Tweet Topic Started: Sat Jun 24, 2006 6:34 pm (1,567 Views) | |
| Shogun | Sat Aug 4, 2007 8:43 pm Post #26 |
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I think you are referring to Lao Tzu, yes he was the founder of Taoism. |
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| SlickSlicer | Sat Aug 4, 2007 11:14 pm Post #27 |
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I'm pretty sure that 'Tzu' is a title that roughly translates to 'master,' Shogun. |
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| Liang | Sun Aug 5, 2007 12:05 am Post #28 |
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Cavalry at Dawn
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im both taoist and buddhist as well! if anyone has any question about either, please feel free to ask! neither of them are anything about or like confusionism. **** a confusionism! their founder invented school! (actual fact) and a man from india (i forget his name :rolleyes: it's a complicated one) invented buddhism, master Lao tzu invented taoism/daoism and confusious invented coonfusionism |
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| atarei | Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:34 pm Post #29 |
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My soul burns brighter than any flame
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If everybody is really interested in these teachings I hope this helps from what i understand of the books. For your info Lao Tzu, Kong Zi, Kong Fu Tzu IS NOT a name. Tzu is a respectful term for a man, Fu Tzu refers to learned scholar. Kong Tzu name was Kong Chin Chung, he has 9 sisters and one brother. Lao Tzu was actually Li Tan. Lao as to refer to him as the elderly. Mohism - The advocation of peace and universal love. A love which is not restricted to one in which all love can coexist if it be of a true nature. Condemns the works of conquerors such as Alexander and the likes as barbaric acts given great publicity clouding the issue. Likens it to killing your neighbour robbing his stuff and writing it in bamboo scrolls for posterity. Believes nothing to be left to fate and the education can change it. Illustrates his point by saying "If a chariot was drawn by square wheels and weak horse compared to circle wheels and good horse, which would you expect to win? Thus fate is in man's hand". Another story was of how he spent 3 years to make a wooden kite fly for a day but considers himself inferior to the cart maker. Reason being the fact that fancy stuff was useless", disapproved of music as how it can diminish a nation if pursued. Founded by Mo Tzu Buddhism - The advocation of living naturally. Founded by Buddha and brought by Boddhiharma to China. Was expounded greatly by 6th patriarch Hui Neng who was actually a northern barbarian with his famous non-mirror stanza. Very famous for true Bhuddist. It was founded on the thoughts of Buddha having seen the lavish lifestyles of the Indian Echelons and rigid torturous trainings of the Brahmins. He saw that the extreme act of opposing or following and act still acknowledges its presence - suffering due to the 5 senses and ego of self and others. Thus he advocated the middle way but was severely chastised by the Brahmins for taking the offering of the La Pa porridge from a woman. They have a very interesting saying "Kill the patriarch if you see the patriarch and kill the Buddha if you see the Buddha". They stress that the Buddha is within oneself, all answer within one soul and outward journey is but vanity of the troubled mind. Thus they usually have no formula to enlightenment and the master constantly catches the students unawares hoping to provoke enlightenment derived from the students themselves since the Buddha is within themselves. An important concept as i strived earlier by Buddha can be expressed in this illustration. Hui Neng tell his students do not rely on words. A person who burns the books also will chastised by Hui Neng. Simply because "do not rely on words" is a word itself. Under Hui Neng, Buddhism was split in between north and south (Hui Neng), Hui Neng stressed instantaneous enlightenment while north strived for meditation and sitting purposes. Alms are usually collected as a means of helping laymen collect merits in donating, real monks only collects food not money. Under Baizhang HuaiHai however Buddhism tilled the lands themselves and survived the onslaughts during the Tang dynasty for opulence. They were referred to as ZEN from then. Confucianism - The uphold of ancestry worship and propriety. Confucius in his life promoted the regulation of propriety as set by Zhou Gong Dan during the Zhou dynasty. A famous quote will be how he told Zi Gin his disciple "You would rather do away with your lamb but ill never do away with my prayers to the spirits. Nevertheless when asked of the afterlife he only answers "You don't even understand life, how can you understand death?". The pursuit of Confucianism established the social structure well and during the northen jin period, officials were made to stand in court, hold jade tablets and easily subjected to corporal punishment to uphold the dignity of the king. Shows a love for music. Even minute detail of eating is given severe emphasis based on the when why how, what receptacles, what time etc etc. Confucianism as most Chinese practise is the striving of increasing one's ability to meet one's goals. It asks that men make full use of their life and strive for better. It stresses proper conduct and Education as in the case of most Chinese is NO.1, results must also be NO.1. The competitive nature of Chinese is probably partially due to this. He considers all men able to attain the Way. That the smart may be faster the dumb slower with more effort but each and all can in the same way in the end attain the Way. Confucius maintains the teacher need not be better than the student nor the student wait for the teacher in learning. In his case he considers himself not above his separate students in eloquence, knowledge and bravery. But as a collective whole , he possesses all traits and is thus the master. He never had shame asking of things he never know be it from people below his ranks. It was noted Confucius regards Lao Tzu as the dragon, too formidable for the likes of anyone. Taoism - "If you asked me to describe, i'd tell you it is everything and nothing together." Taoism is at best summed to the laymen as best nothing or everything. You know Harry Potter? What happens to things that vanish? Well simplistically speaking when you are nothing, when you are not defined, you are everything and you don't lose your meaning. A story goes that a man played the zither and the other man asked him what the song meant. The man replayed the song and said that's what it meant. Because defining it or putting it to words is not exact. That is what they meant by hearing with your eyes and seeing with your ears. It jus implies that one is all, all is one. A water droplet in the sea could be regarded as part of the sea or just a water droplet which would render it small. As of such, the man who accepts his part of nature is in sync with the Tao and the one who resist shall suffer. Thus derives the concept of the act of non-act. Going against nature and not following one's natural way is against the body and such a body won't last. In the sense, unlike Confucianism, he stresses the lowering of one's desires and goals. The man who keeps off obligations stays true to his heart. He likens the strength of the soft to that of water penetrating rock. A warm humble man attracts followers more than a tyrant, low valleys accumulate great seas, the mountain forms itself upon many small stones. Applied in Tai Chi, supple grass bends before the wind but great trees who oppose the flow naturally gets uprooted. Some easier concepts of this state of non-being or all is like "Attacking being the best defence", "Taking a step back to progress" Taoism states that there is no big or small and strong or weak. That it is the vanity arising from the ego of self and others resulting in evaluative comparisons which are of course not the true description. For instance to say a cat is big is not right as big is not a cat, something of that sort. In that sense people lose the true nature by this evaluation. In a way, like Musashi, he states that anything comes naturally. The outmost achievement is achieved when deliberation is not needed. It comes naturally just as how Musashi teaches the wielding of two swords. In Taoism, one could always note some mythical teachings of the some arts like the archery. The sublime archery is achieved without bow and arrow. Time over and again, people need visible results and thats how the Taoism conjures it up with ridiculuos tale of sniping a bird with one's finger. Oftentime however they are only saying that the form of archery with a form is but a delusion. The mental state without the body following could still be shooting an arrow. That stuff like karma and retributions are not physical but in the mental state of the uneasy mind. Those who are petty will however resort to afterlife retribution and the likes or attribute anything physical as retribution when fact is its only extra. (Severely my interpretation, i don't think he even bothered with this. An interesting story of enlightenment in the Tao came from the story of Lie Tzi and his master. 1st phase - Lie Tzi was full of right and wrong and discussed the worldly issue but his teacher does not even face him. 2nd phase - Lie Tzi finally pacifies himself to never condemn right or wrong or even think about it, his teacher gave him a sidelong glance. 3rd phase - Lie Tzi begins to speak of right and wrong again freely and teacher invites him to sit with him and talk on the same carpet. 4th phase - Lie Tzi does not even care about the worldly issue and he is enlightened. Similarly the story of most enlightenment favoured by Buddhism as in the book Siddharta will tell you of how a man can be perfect naturally. But without the right mindset he is not enlightened. He is severely disciplined and regid with himself abiding by the form strictly. He will desire the wrong path and stray upon it, he will lose himself in it and experience it fully and if lucky will find himself disgusted with himself. If he does it right in the end however hell withdraw himself into contemplation. If he succeed hell live perfectly again and be enlighten in the fact that he lives naturally with it without a thought of right and wrong or self. Well this is as best i can sum up the WAY OF LIFE not religion. If anyone desires more historical facts im gald to present. |
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| Wu Fei | Sun Aug 19, 2007 4:34 am Post #30 |
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Jianghu Xiao
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Wow, quite the scholar are you? In religion, I'm a big follower of Confucianism and Daoism. My family are Theravada Buddhist but I lean more to the Mahayana Buddhism. I can't fully describe what I believe in as I would also consider myself atheist. Buddhism has known to be an atheist religion as there is no god. Confucianism is a philosophy and Daoism is the religion of nature. Though Daoism has many gods, but I'm more a believer of its teachings. I guess this is just what the average Chinese person would be. Surprisingly China itself is official an atheist country. Chinese culture and its people are effected by Confucianism and Daoism as well as Buddhism, plus the ancestral worship, their lives and culture are all revolved around the three. But there's not a belief in a god. It's quite interesting... During the Warring States Period, Li Si tried to destroy Confucianism itself, he ordered thousands and thousands of Confucian scholars be buried alive and their writings burned in fire along with historical records. I can't remember from my reading if Daoism was a target. But I can confirm that Li Si wanted no other philosophies or religion to exist next to Legalism. Anyhow back on topic- Zhuang Zi and Wang Chongyang are my personal favorite Daoist. Zhang Liang, Liu Bang's advisor was also a Daoist. When Liu united China Zhang went to resume his life as a hermit and practiced all forms of Daoism. Zhang Jiao, Zhuge Liang, Zhang Lu of the Sangguo period were important Daoist figures. |
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| SlickSlicer | Sun Aug 19, 2007 4:40 am Post #31 |
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That's not true, by the way. I don't know much about Boddhidharma or whatever his name is, but he didn't bring Buddhism to China. I *think* {and this is probably wrong} that he helped bring some Buddhist works to China. However, Buddhism was introduced via the Silk Road, etc. before he came into existence. In fact, the Late-Han character Zhai Rong was a Buddhist. It's known that Buddhism spread en masse during the Age of Fragmentation. Back on the topic of Taoism, you would probably agree with Haragei if you guys spoke, Sun Wufei. He also considered it to be more of a philosophy than a religion, from what I remember. |
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| Wu Fei | Sun Aug 19, 2007 4:56 am Post #32 |
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Jianghu Xiao
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I give all the credit to the spreading of Buddhism to Han Wudi(Liu Che) and his sucessor Han Zhaodi(Liu Fuling).
Woohoo, I guess I'm not the only dude that believes that Daoism leans more to a philosophy than religion. :lol: |
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| atarei | Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:54 am Post #33 |
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My soul burns brighter than any flame
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Hey i also stressed all those i spoke of is a way of life not religion =p Reason why it was turned to religion that worship gods is simply because of its folk tales my frens =) Then Taoism was not spreaded by scriptures and books, it was told by folk tales =) the tales of 8 immortals if you look carefully reflects every bit of the 8 Trigrams which is form from the Yin Yang originating from Tao, "The one and all". I absolutely adore this way of lifes. Unfortunately many laymen corrupts the way of life into religion in their insecurity and thus it turn religion with many gods. But fact is only Confucius who supports sage worship will not roll in his grave unfortunately =p "Kill the buddha when you see the Buddha" and "All is one, one is all" remember =) I wince at the master's pain. There was an enlightened buddhist monk who burn the buddha's statue once due to cold!!! Other enlightened mo0nks support it cuz its in accordance with the natural life. What does that tell you Buddhism really is? But anyhow yes Boddhiharma din exactly bring buddhism. But truth be spoken he was the first patriarch who imparted the Real Teachings to man who chopped off his left arm just to learn from him after kneeling 3 days in the snow. You can't exactly say, buddhism in China existed before him because only under him did the true teaching passing on the mantle of the patriarch, until Hui Neng came about. He even put Han Wudi to shame. There was once Han Wudi asked him, what are my merits for building temples writing scriptures and housing monks. Boddhidarma said "none because all this was done in vanity wishing for merits and thus in fact a sin of delusion. So saying he left and met Hui Kei the man who became his disciple in the snow. That was when Buddhism was really began i believe. Story has it it on his birth, the sky turned red and the river broke its banks. The minister in China predicted his coming as a prince who would rule the people heart. This was the story of Boddhidarma, bringer of Buddhism to China. Li Si burnt books simply because Yin Zheng or Shi Huang Di wanted to unify chinese into what we know today as Mandarin. He wanted a standardised China. There was also no place for Confucianism in Legalism. Thus The burning of boooks and burying of rebellious scholar was such. In fact, lets state it ironically, Li Si believed and learnt from the books Han Fei Tzi wrote - Legalism. |
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| SlickSlicer | Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:05 am Post #34 |
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Well, as with Christianity, I'm sure there are many sects and variations of Buddhism. So, although Buddhism may have existed in China before Boddhidharma, I can understand why you might say that he imported a kind of Buddhism to the country. Perhaps the version of Buddhism he brought to China was slightly different than the one that already existed and was practiced (albeit by only a few followers) in the country. |
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| atarei | Sun Aug 19, 2007 11:30 am Post #35 |
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My soul burns brighter than any flame
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Hum let me try to explain further. The breaking up of sects mainly occured during Hui Neng time into north and south then later by Zen and non-zen during Baizhang Huaihai time and also the various schools blossoming from separate masters. Before Boddhidarma lets compare Zen/Buddhism as to Islam. Islam came to some states by soldiers and traders, people convert to it. Then finally the great Ulama or perhaps Caliph comes to fully enlighten the mass. This is the role played by Boddhidarma. He is officially recognised the first patriarch in china. He brought over other forms of martial arts integrated into Shaolin later. He was the 28th patriarch of India. After having tought for sometime in China he gave this interesting test to his disciples asking them to tell him what they knew before he elected the new patriarch. The Buddhism we know all came from the same root under Hui Neng the sixth patriarch henceforth. Of course the northern Buddhism exist but its considered to be inferior to that of Hui Neng of course. To further illustrate the difference between north and south which some knows as mahayana and the other. South emphasises direct awakening and no attachment to any form. North believes in the Indian way of meditation, life of frugality and many accords to dispel delusion and one day achieve enlightenment by painstaking process. The choice is yours of course. Recently however there have been many new sects which tells of how one must be compassionate and the stuff. Good is good but their attachment to the form relates to the delusion of laymen and has truly deviated from the religion especially when they seek buddha for answers. Truly sad. To determine the succesion of the robe (of the patriarch), the 5th patriarch Hong Ren asked his students to compose a gatha to show their understanding. This was a gatha by Shen Siu, head monk and later founder of north style Zen. It recieved much praise from everyone (or so it seemed regarding the patriarch) The body is the wisdom-tree, The mind is a bright mirror in a stand; Take care to wipe it all the time, And allow no dust to cling. With the help of a laymen, the illiterate "barbarian from the north" Hui Neng wrote this gatha instead after proclaiming Shen Siu not enlightened. Fundamentally no wisdom-tree exists, Nor the stand of a mirror bright. Since all is empty from the beginning, Where can the dust alight The 5th patriarch was not impressed and asked it rubbed off. In the dark, to escape envying unscrupulous eyes, the 5th patriarch passed on the teachings alongside the robe and bowl of the patriarch to Hui Neng and bid him farewell to as far as he can go into hiding before emerging again much later. |
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| Wu Fei | Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:06 am Post #36 |
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Jianghu Xiao
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I totally agree that there was a need for a united writting/language system under a new Qin dynasty as each of the 7 Warring States had their own, China needed to be united in ways of communication. But I still criticize Li Si and Ying Zheng for their harsh ways of doing so. What China needed most at that time was a benevolent and virtuous ruler setting examples as the ancients Emperor Yao or Emperor Shun. Burying thousands of intellectual scholars and burning historical writings and records isn't going make people much happier either. Not to mention the massive construction projects with canals, roads, and can't leave out the Great Wall. A 5 year cease peasant involvement/work should have at least been set to bring the country to peace and the lowering of taxation should also have been proclaim to calm the people down from centuries of constant bloodshed. |
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| SlickSlicer | Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:57 am Post #37 |
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My opinion on Qin Shi Huang was that he was a horrible tyrant. I really don't like him at all. The book burning, the harsh labor for the construction of the Great Wall, etc... all don't make him seem like such a great man in my eyes. WAsn't he once almost assassinated by a dude named Jingke or something? Too bad that didn't work out... |
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| Wu Fei | Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:25 pm Post #38 |
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Jianghu Xiao
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The harsh labor's was somewhat necessary for the construction of the Great Wall to keep the Xiongnu out of China proper. But the labor was just too harsh and long years of work. Millions died in the process, plus more taxation basically was the thing that threw the people in rebellion after Ying Zheng's death. Ying Huhai's extravagant spending for pleasures and Zhao Gao's lust for power turned the court at his mercy. The Qin paved way for the Han to flourish from what Qin started. Just like the Sui did for the Tang. I'll give Qin some credit for it's accomplishment of the Great Wall, unified writing system, and a united China from 800 years of Feudal reign of the Zhou. Yea, Jingke an assassin from the state of Yan. Prince Dan of Yan sent him on a mission hoping to eliminate the threat from his border. Recently the state of Zhao had been conquered and Qin was pouring its army into Yan's territory. With Jingke's failed mission, it only pushed Ying Zheng more to eliminate Yan which happened not long afterwards. |
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| atarei | Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:07 pm Post #39 |
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My soul burns brighter than any flame
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Qin Shi Huang was a shrewd man who dodge assassination from actually not less than 7 people =) Tales goes that he had to hide under the bed while a dummy was placed on his bed. Given fact was that he was a tyrant but let's face it this way, ever since young, people like his real father Lu Buwei tried to undermine him and he wasn't really in the safest position when his own mother's secret lover is trying for his throne too. In fact look at history and you will find nothing Qin Shi huang ever did was for himself or despotic for the matter. His whole life even to the point of Jing Ke you have to note, he was never restful and led a life of wariness. Jing Ke unsuccessful assassination attempt was mainly due to his observation of something amissed. Like it or not, Qin Shi Huang understood what was sacrifice and by the legalistic rule:"Fire though fiery kills little while water though soft kills many". True the great wall of China killed many but it was imperative it be built or the Xiongnu would have forever terrorize the farmers of China and the recently stabilized China after many wars. The China then wouldn have stood against the nomadic tribes. Furthermore, people called him cruel but none rebelled against him but for the vassals of the vanquished states under him. Very efficiently, he united China by his quick elimination of the other states preventing further wars. As Lord Shingen said (in the game) it takes an extraordinary man to be overlord. Qin Shi Huang was no less a very powerful man. We have to take special note, that there wasn't any rebellion under his reign not because they were scared of him but so much more for the fact deep down everybody respected him. At least he took a stand where others could not even hold onto. Has anyone been able to percieve a genius to unite the scattered states with such power? A feat never done before? The burning of books and burying of scholars unfortunately was mainly due to the harrowing of Li Si. Nevertheless, the scholars had joined forces to petition against Ying Zheng rule. With their confucianistic benelovence, they were undermining legalism and nothing would make them stop from opposing the unification of China. There were even many cases of conflicts due to different interest. They were obstacles in Ying Zheng path which are seriously of an irritating capacity compared to his many conquest beforehand. Sun Tzu said, execute one to scare the many, Ying Zheng did things of such horrific capacity simply to reduce the total casualties in future. Had he not done such, would China be one? Was he perhaps not the one to be buried if he was soft to any one such person who opposes him all his life? Nevertheless he did preserve the diversified culture within the A Fan Gong, a palace just in case i suppose. Then the stupid brute Xiang Yu and his warring ways burnt it all down. Now THAT is tyrannical, stupidly cruel. Ying Zheng as we should all understand is a man of war, a ruler with an iron fist. Without which he has no true kingly quality. How else is he to unite a China which opposes him. Quoting Lord Nobunaga (from the game) A land strived with might must be conquered and subjected under might. Benelovence could not be in Ying Zheng department as he was doing a dirty job of sheltering China in a warring state, nothing else could have stopped people from fighting to start the road of peace. Supposing there was no peace to enjoy, would people enjoy the benelovence of a king against the backdrop of war? Justice is not done to him if we merely consider him cruelly tyrannical and perhaps horrible simply because he was born to unite China by war isn't it? Fact is he did accomplish what others could not and he did not hesitate in between given the lives of all China it involved. |
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| Wu Fei | Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:35 am Post #40 |
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Jianghu Xiao
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Speaking of Lu Buwei, I believe that things might have been a lot different if he was still in charge as Prime Minister throughout Qin's final days. Many historians today conclude that Lu Buwei was also the true father of Ying Zheng. It's kinda ironic that Lu Buwei was killed by his own son. He was exiled to Shu and Lu committed suicide. My biography of Lu Buwei on another thread- Lü Buwei(呂不韋)- Was the Prime Minister of Qin serving Ying Zheng(Qin Shi Huang) and Qin Zichu. According to Chinese historians and traditions he was the biological father of Ying Zheng. Ying Zheng's mother was originally a cocubine of Lu Buwei who was pregnant with Lu's child before being given to the King of Qin. Lu Buwei was a wealthy merchant from the Yangzhai(The capital of the State of Han(韓)). Lu Buwei's legend has it that, he wanted to be famous by using his wealth and money to become a well known figure which became true when he later became an official of Qin. Some people say that he had greater ambition with handling his concubine to Qin Zichu(Zichu was unaware of this) was to later hope that his son would help him become a ruler of a State. Lu Buwei was later promoted to Prime Minister by Qin Zichu when be became King. Lu was also a great statesman, he introduced the Lushichunqiu(吕氏春秋- The Spring and Autumn Annals of Mr. Lu). It's purpose was to collect all knowledge and philosophy to strengthen the State of Qin as well as to create a state law, which was destroyed by Li Si(李斯)[His successor to the post of Prime Minister], but later to be revived by Liu Bang of the Han dyansty. When Qin Zichu died, the son of Lu Buwei, Ying Zheng(Qin Shi Huang) came to the throne. Lu Buwei continued to serve as Prime Minister. Lu Buwei was later removed of his position and exile to Shu when a conspiracy with his former concubine(now the Queen Dowager) also involving a eunuch name Lao Ai was brought to light. Lu Buwei, humiliated that he was stripped from his wealth and status and now exile in a foreign land was about to commit suicide. When he did so, he had laughed to Heaven and said,"If he does not kill me, then he is not fit to be my son." Even though Ying Zheng forced Lu to commit suicide, Zheng had still respected him for his past achievements and had honored him as a father. http://z13.invisionfree.com/koeiwarriors/i...?showtopic=6339 ----- One of the many interesting things that I find that all had connections to Lu Buwei was that. There was a conspiracy behind the Ying family drama. Ying Zheng's mother, Lu Buwei's former concubine had a love affair with a eunuch name Lao Ai who was known for having [excuse my language] a big penis. . When Ying Zheng found out that his own mother had children behind his back he ordered the execution of those siblings, put down Lao Ai's rebellion and executed him with 4 horses pulling his arms and legs at the same time. I can't seem to understand how Lu Buwei was involved in this situation, which was the main reason why Ying Zheng had strip Lu Buwei of the post of Prime Minister. Li Si, who was employed by Lu Buwei served as a secretary for Lu was later promoted to his lord's position.
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. When Ying Zheng found out that his own mother had children behind his back he ordered the execution of those siblings, put down Lao Ai's rebellion and executed him with 4 horses pulling his arms and legs at the same time. I can't seem to understand how Lu Buwei was involved in this situation, which was the main reason why Ying Zheng had strip Lu Buwei of the post of Prime Minister. Li Si, who was employed by Lu Buwei served as a secretary for Lu was later promoted to his lord's position.
3:28 PM Jul 11