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| Historicity of the Novel; Ask Artemis | |
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| Topic Started: Jan 10 2007, 08:12 AM (1,272 Views) | |
| Artemis | Jan 10 2007, 08:12 AM Post #1 |
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This thread is for discussion and questions on how events in the novel differ from events in the actual history of the Three Kingdoms. In this thread, you may ask whether something in the novel was historically true or not. You may also discuss with me or other people on issues pertaining to the historicity of certain parts in the novel. Some questions I can think of off the top of my head... 1Q.) Did Zhou Tai actually save Sun Quan in Xuan. 1A.) Yes. This actually happened. It is said that if Zhou Tai had not been with Sun Quan on that day, Sun Quan would have been killed. Historically though, Sun Quan had soldiers with him that helped protect him as well. 2Q.) What duels from the novel historically happened? 2A.) Guan Yu's duel with Yan Liang, a duel between Lu Bu and Guo Si and a duel between Taishi Ci and Sun Ce all probably happened historically. The first one ended in Yan Liang's death, the second one had Lu Bu defeat Guo Si, but several of Guo Si's riders came up and stopped Lu Bu from landing the killing blow on their lord. The third duel is mentioned as being fairly brief in historical sources. The two generals saw each other, rode out to fight one another, and after a little while each of them withdrew back to their camps. 3Q.) Did Guan Yu historically escape through those 5 Passes and kill those 5 Guards? 3A.) There is no record of this having happened in historical sources, and therefore it probably didn't happen. 4Q.) Were the Nanman Campaigns historical? 4A.) The Sanguozhi mentions that Zhuge Liang did go South, presumably to settle rebels. It would appear that Zhuge Liang's main enemies were minor officers in the book's Nanman Campaign chapters. There were people like Gao Ding, Zhu Bao and Yong Kai. Meng Huo was probably a historical character, and was also a rebel from the South. Unfortunately, since King Mulu, Wutu Gu, Zhu Rong and others don't appear in historical sources, they are probably fictional. For a more in-depth guide of inconsistencies between the history of the three kingdoms and the novel, click here for James' guide from Kongming Archives' Forums. |
 
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| Will | Jan 10 2007, 03:52 PM Post #2 |
God of Death in Gundam Wing
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3Q.) Did Guan Yu historically escape through those 5 Passes and kill those 5 Guards? 3A.) There is no record of this having happened in historical sources, and therefore it probably didn't happen. You should umm put that in the three kingdom section. So Guan Yu did kill 5 generals in the novel |
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| Shaun | Jan 10 2007, 04:46 PM Post #3 |
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I believe Slick is comparing certain things that happened in the novel that may or may not have happened in actual history. |
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| Hebi | Jan 10 2007, 06:16 PM Post #4 |
Fukushu suruwa ware ni ari !!
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This topic is a really good idea ^^ There sometimes huge differences between the book and the reality... What about JingZhou? Did Wu really lend it to Shu in the first place, or it's an invention from the book? |
"A vaincre sans péril, on tromphe sans Gloire" - Corneille ~Le Cid~    Thanks Jiahe for the banner 
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| Will | Jan 10 2007, 06:42 PM Post #5 |
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God of Death in Gundam Wing
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It's a invention of the book. the only thing Liu Bei borrowed was JiangLing and returned it with jiangxia. Later on he gave Wu Ling ing, and Changsha in 215. "The problem is that Wu never owned all of Jingzhou in the first place, hence 'borrow' and 'give back' are meaningless. Not a single Wu soldier was used to capture Changsha, Guiyang, and Lingling, yet by Wu's demands, these three prefectures had to be 'returned'. Liu Qi's Southern Jiangxia was suddenly merged into Wu territory. How can you lend someone something that you didn't own in the first place? Liu Bei was under no obligation to 'return' anything other than the city of Jiangling (which according to some historical text, Zhang Fei may have participated in it's capture)." From the Admin in 3k.net Shu-Han Zhao Lie Di |
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| Artemis | Jan 11 2007, 01:25 AM Post #6 |
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Sun Quan allowed Liu Bei to occupy several commanderies in Jingzhou. Jingzhou was, however, partitioned for a long time between the three kingdoms of Cao Cao's, Liu Bei's and Sun Quan's; Liu Bei never held all of the province within his grasp. In the novel, Liu Bei managed to occupy a city in Jing that Zhou Yu was besieging by using a ruse. Liu Bei's army waited while Zhou Yu weakened the forces of the city's defender, Cao Ren. Then, at an opportune time, Liu Bei's army took over the city for themselves. This scheme was credited to Zhuge Liang, but Zhao Yun was the one to lead Liu Bei's army to conquer the city. Zhou Yu attacks Zhao Yun's army for this, but fails to reconquer the city he had tried so hard to bring down. And yes, Shaun is correct. This is the only thread of this board where some three kingdoms history, can be discussed. The purpose of this thread is to clarify what really happened in the novel and to compare the novel and history (what do you like best in both?, etc.) |
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| Hebi | Jan 11 2007, 01:23 PM Post #7 |
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Fukushu suruwa ware ni ari !!
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Ok thanks for your replies ^^ |
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"A vaincre sans péril, on tromphe sans Gloire" - Corneille ~Le Cid~ Thanks Jiahe for the banner
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| Will | Jan 11 2007, 02:31 PM Post #8 |
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God of Death in Gundam Wing
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Just to tell you Shu and Wu. I mean Zhou Yu and Shu were friends. He never was mad at zhuge liang, he gave them jiangling as lu su advise and zhang fei was there to have Zhou Yu back. |
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| Hebi | Jan 11 2007, 05:06 PM Post #9 |
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Fukushu suruwa ware ni ari !!
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I already knew that, for Zhou Yu I mean, but I was just wondering about Jing (if Wu was really right to ask it back), since that's one of the major conflicts between the two kingdoms in the novel. I think that Artemis should paste the list made on the topic of James , on Shen Zhou... cause it's really interesting |
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"A vaincre sans péril, on tromphe sans Gloire" - Corneille ~Le Cid~ Thanks Jiahe for the banner
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| Artemis | Jan 11 2007, 05:23 PM Post #10 |
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That's a good list. I'll paste the link to it in my first post... |
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| Flying General | Jan 26 2007, 06:25 PM Post #11 |
Look Beyond What You See
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was lu bu really as strong as the novel says he was. he was defeated by cao cao's army a number of times wasent he? |
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| Little Conqueror of Jiang Dong | Feb 12 2007, 02:59 AM Post #12 |
江東之小霸王
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Lu Bu fared pretty well against Cao Cao and Liu Bei, all things considered. It was against Sun Jian that he lost the majority of his battles while he was serving Dong Zhuo. |
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| Will | Feb 12 2007, 03:09 AM Post #13 |
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God of Death in Gundam Wing
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yeah cao cao and liu bei really did a number on him. |
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| Flying General | Feb 23 2007, 07:10 PM Post #14 |
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Look Beyond What You See
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i dont think that such person as lubu could be as powerfull as the novel and everyone else says. he is only one man. he is know god. and wouldnt he get tired of holding that hailberg of his for many hours during war. a battle would not be one by one man abillities. but how he can use them is essiantial. millitarlly he was proven to be really good. physicaly good too but still it is rarther harsh to be prasing him all the time as other generals in his time worked hard and never got a chance to fight like him |
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| DemonClaws | May 9 2007, 09:09 AM Post #15 |
Chaotic Evil
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Although he was praised as the strongest warrior,it doesnt really do much when youre too impulsive and not care of tactics,and up against legions,one man doesnt actually make too much of a difference |
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[size=1]"Chaos will prevail wherever I have failed..."[/size] | |
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| Flying General | May 9 2007, 09:18 PM Post #16 |
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Look Beyond What You See
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thats what i was thinking. its a shame other strategist didnt get as much praise as that. most of them actully got executed LMAO |
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| SlickSlicer | May 9 2007, 09:21 PM Post #17 |
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He was a good warrior, apparently. He's one of the few generals of the time who's historically mentioned as having a duel with somebody else. He's mentioned as dueling Guo Si, but I forget what source it is in. He won the duel, but Guo Si was rescued. Lu Bu was smart at times, but Gao Shun was a much better commander, despite being Lu Bu's subordinate. |
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| Sanada Yukimura | May 9 2007, 09:27 PM Post #18 |
The Blade Of Ganryű
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Id argue that point, one man can definitely make a difference, say your a lowly slave, your lord tells you your battling against the army of Lu Bu, chances are you`ve heard stories of this mans actions, how he slaughters armies with single swings of his Halbred and probably shoots fire balls from his eyes and lightning from his ass to boot. Chances are this will unnerve you, sap your will to fight, perhaps cause you to flee. and there in lies the key, perhaps Lu Bu wasent out there slaughtering legions, but as long as you thought he might be, and as long as everyone spread the propaganda that Lu Bu was a god, then one man did infact make a difference. |
" I am Sanada Yukimura, an opponent no doubt quite worthy of you, but i am too tired to fight anymore..."
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| SlickSlicer | May 13 2007, 12:18 AM Post #19 |
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It might have had a psychological effect similar to the effect caused by Ii Naomasa making his troops wear all crimson armour (thus making them look like powerful demons). But the effect itself did not ultimately help Lu Bu most of the time. Sun Jian beat him, Cao Cao beat him, and so on. In fact, Cao Cao's skill as a commander is mentioned in sources like the ZZTJ as often being more unnerving than Lu Bu's war skills. Liu Bei, for instance, was said to even be scared when he first heard that Cao Cao was marching against him after he had betrayed Cao Cao. Morale of an army is much more important than the martial skill of the general leading the army in most cases. If the enemy general's army is slaying troops left and right, it's more psychologically scary for a common footsoldier who might not even see the enemy general on the field. The fame of a particular unit of an army produces a similar effect. This was partially why, besides pure incredible skill, that Cao Cao's Panther Cavalry (his personal guard unit) and Napoleon's Imperial Guards were such an awesome force to reckon with. Of course, if we're just talking about the novel then the fighting prowess of a general often played a much bigger effect in victories than the leadership skills of commanders. This is not true historically, though. |
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| Pride | Jun 13 2008, 02:32 PM Post #20 |
孟德
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Question: I know you mentioned some duels in the first post but I was wondering about these duels: Lu Bu Vs. Xiahou Dun (It's said that they fought in the novel) Sun Jian Vs. Hua Xiong (In the novel, it's said that Guan Yu is the one who dueled, historically, I read that Sun Jian did so, but you didn't mention that in your first post.. which made me confused) Another question is about Guan Yu, I heard that he was really over powered in the novel and wasn't even close to how he was described in the novel. Last question is about Zhang Fei, in the novel he is described as a lazy-stupid-drunk-careless warriors, historically, he doesn't appear like that to me, for an instant, he used his brain to defeat Zhang He and make Yan Yan join Shu. He was also smart enough to shout at Chang Ban Slope stopping the enemy forces. So yeah, was he dump historically or not? |
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>>-----------[[ My 'Gallery' ||| Avatar =Sakii ||| Sig= Sakii ]] تاريخ الممالك الثلاث و العاب رومانس و داينستي هنا باللغة العربية حصريا  | |
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| Wenze | Jun 13 2008, 03:23 PM Post #21 |
Omniscient Strategist
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There are only three recorded duels historically tht we are sure of: Lu Bu vs. Guo Si, Sun Ce vs. Taishi Ci, and Ma Chao vs. Yan Xing. Ma Chao may have also dueled Yang Fu, but that is open to interpretation. So, no, those duels you mentioned are only in the novel. Yes, Guan Yu was nothing like he is in the novel. He had one victory throughout his career, slaying Yan Liang at Baima in a raid from behind. The rest was fabricated, and he lost repeatedly. Zhang Fei in history was one of the greatest commanders of the era, and probably the best for Liu Bei and Shu. He was a clever man and used various strategies to defeat his opponents. A far cry from the drunkard in the novel. |
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| Pride | Jun 14 2008, 06:33 PM Post #22 |
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孟德
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Kay thanks for explaining pal. |
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>>-----------[[ My 'Gallery' ||| Avatar =Sakii ||| Sig= Sakii ]] تاريخ الممالك الثلاث و العاب رومانس و داينستي هنا باللغة العربية حصريا | |
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| GoW | Jul 17 2008, 08:48 PM Post #23 |
KOEI Warriors Unifier
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Hold up. Now according to tradition, I heard that Zhang Fei historically captured Zhou Yu, humiliated him then released him. On another Fei note, he was also said to mercilessly whip his troops. That doesn't sound like something that a sober man would do. Hence the contrast in he and Guan Yu. Yu was said to have more respect for his followers than his superiors which is why he's looked up to in history more. Fei on the other hand cared little for his subordinates as opposed to his lord and fellow 5 Tigers, which is what in the end led to his assassination. |
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| Dongzhou | Jul 20 2008, 04:04 PM Post #24 |
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Emperor's Retainer
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There is no evidence that Fei drunk anymore then Guan Yu/Zhao Yun/insert general here, just that he was overly harsh to his soldiers. I don't see how a personality trait, a fairly common one throughout history, suggests that Fei had a drinking problem?
Zhou Yu and any of Liu Bei's never clashed. Certainly Yu was historically never humiliated by any of Liu Bei's men |
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