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Which kingdom had the best strategists?
Wei 40 (44%)
Wu 20 (22%)
Shu 31 (34.1%)
Total Votes: 91
Which Kingdom had the best strategists?
Topic Started: Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:11 pm (5,336 Views)
The Dragon
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The Count
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I am going to try and host a poll-a-day...does everyone like this idea?

Anywho, I would have to say Wei on this one. Sima Yi, Guo Jia, Xun Yu, Xun You, Jia Xu.....just to name a few.
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Will
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God of Death in Gundam Wing
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best would be shu of course but it lacks alot of advisors. I would have to go with wei
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Little Conqueror of Jiang Dong
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江東之小霸王
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Each kingdom had its own general strengths and weaknesses when it comes to strategists:

Wu:
Strengths: They could adapt quickly to changing situations and make flexible strategies on the fly, a skill that Shu could have used.
Weaknesses: Although Zhou Yu was successful in virtually every battle he fought in, the other strategists don't fare so well. Lu Su doesn't have many battles to his name to begin with, and Lu Meng was along with the ride during some of the losses at Hefei. Lu Xun was excellent defensively, but he only conquered small amounts of Wei territory.

Shu:
Strengths: If a strategy utilized by a Shu strategist worked, then it usually resulted in near immediate victory. Their strategies were complex and involved many factors...
Weaknesses: ...Which was also Shu's weakness. At Chen Cang, Zhuge Liang's strategy fell apart because he didn't expect Hao Zhao to put up such a staunch defense, and Zhuge had neither prepared a backup strategy nor tried to come up with a strategy on the spot. Overall, Zhuge Liang was very inflexible in his strategy, and his SGZ bio commentary says as much.

Wei:
Strengths: Wei's strategists were all from the upper crust of the scholar bunch. They were trained extensively and usually gave excellent advice. In addition, their strategies - when they prepared one in earnest - rarely failed.
Weaknesses: Moreso than Shu or Wu, Wei's strategists suffered from distrust or being ignored by their ruler. Both Xun Yu and Xun You died as a result of their displeasure with Cao Cao; Sima Yi was removed from his position despite being the best man for the job; Jia Xu and Liu Ye both advised their masters in the Cao family to either attack at a crucial junction and were ignored or advised them not to attack, and when the attack occured, their lords were soundly beaten. While this isn't so much a fault of the Wei strategists, it shows that many of them weren't properly utilized. Perhaps they should have imitated the conduct of Lu Su and others by being more firm and relentless in their opinions.

Who has the best? I don't know. I generally don't like "who's the best" questions because there's too many What-Ifs, and usually they just turn out as "who's your favorite" anyway. For all we know, Zhou Yu could have outmaneuvered Sima Yi or Zhuge Liang, or Pang Tong could have defeated Deng Ai. It's impossible to tell.

I will say that Zhou Yu and Deng Ai are the only strategists who never lost a battle, but that doesn't necessarily make them better than Zhuge or anyone else. I think that Zhou Yu is the best, but I have no proof, and neither does anybody who claims anybody else is the best. We can conjecture and such, but we won't change any minds.
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Will
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God of Death in Gundam Wing
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Bofu Lu su was a jackass in real life he wasnt all nice to shu, He told one of the shu generals to shut up. He was the one who made gan ning scare off guan yu. He was the one who wanted the shu and wu alliance to be together and think long term, he was the one who got jingzhou back without using force. He was the one who made guan yu be quiet and won the debate. I thought Jia xu never lose a battle either.
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kongming's_disciple
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Tiger General
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Besides Zhuge Liang, Shu also has some other exceptional strategists, like Fa Zheng, Pang Tong, Xu Zhu, to name a few...too bad they died early or have ill fortune in their lives...
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Will
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God of Death in Gundam Wing
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Fa zheng was very smart and was a man of psychology if he was at yiling he could have told his lord to not attack wu or at least not suffer such a big defeat
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Little Conqueror of Jiang Dong
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江東之小霸王
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Shadowlink
Jan 23 2007, 03:10 AM
Bofu Lu su was a jackass in real life he wasnt all nice to shu, He told one of the shu generals to shut up. He was the one who made gan ning scare off guan yu. He was the one who wanted the shu and wu alliance to be together and think long term, he was the one who got jingzhou back without using force. He was the one who made guan yu be quiet and won the debate. I thought Jia xu never lose a battle either.

Lu Su was still a bit forgiving to Liu Bei compared to the take-no-nonsense attitude of Lu Meng, who actually advocated open warfare with Liu Bei.

As for Jia Xu, his biography is a lot more vague than Zhou Yu's. It's entirely possible he earned the same distinction, but we don't even know if Jia Xu participated in any battles from his biography.
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Will
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God of Death in Gundam Wing
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Ma chao ><, He was more long term planning like lu xun. he was so good he doesnt even need to be in battle to win. Remember his plan of not attacking wu? stay in jingzhou and do domestic and wu will surrender? all his plans worked and never lose a battle.
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Red Knight
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God of War
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Ma Chao was a warrior, not a strategist. Zhuge Liang created no back up strategies even if the original plan fails, eg Chen Cang. Jiang Wei learnt this negative trait very early on.

Wu's strategists were mentally flexible. Their real weakness was lack of planning. If things went wrong, He Fei QED, they didn't really do anything.

Wei's strategists were alright. Cao Cao feared Sima Yi. Their best strategist was Guo Jia, unfortunately, he died too early*207 AD*.
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Will
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God of Death in Gundam Wing
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No I mean Jia Xu won against Ma chao in battle
What are you talking about miost of guo jia stragery isnt even his. It was credit to other people
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Shinpusan
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First Lieutenant
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Shadowlink
Jan 24 2007, 10:38 AM
No I mean Jia Xu won against Ma chao in battle
What are you talking about miost of guo jia stragery isnt even his. It was credit to other people

Indeed it was mainly Xun Yu's works that Guo Jia was given credit for.
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Little Conqueror of Jiang Dong
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江東之小霸王
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Shadowlink
Jan 24 2007, 03:38 PM
No I mean Jia Xu won against Ma chao in battle
What are you talking about miost of guo jia stragery isnt even his. It was credit to other people

Jia Xu was among Cao Cao's entourage during that battle. He did not hold a command position like Zhou Yu, Zhuge Liang, or Sima Yi ever did.
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Will
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God of Death in Gundam Wing
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he is so good he doesnt even need to come out himself.
Annotations

Before the bamboo scroll version was discovered by archaeologists in April 1972, the most cited version of The Art of War was the Annotation of Sun Tzu's Strategies by Cao Cao, the founder of Cao Wei Kingdom. In the preface, he wrote that previous annotations were not focused on the essential ideas. Other annotations cited in official history books include Shen You (176-204)'s Sun Tzu's Military Strategy, Jia Xu's Copy of Sun Tzu's Military Strategy, Cao Cao and Wang Ling (a nephew of Wang Yun)'s Sun Tzu's Military Strategy.
from wikipedia. Jia xu has been compare to zhang liang himself and and he doesnt let his son marry another princess or people from the court who are popular so he is popular with the people.
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Little Conqueror of Jiang Dong
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江東之小霸王
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Shadowlink
Jan 28 2007, 04:48 PM
he is so good he doesnt even need to come out himself.

Jia xu has been compare to zhang liang himself and and he doesnt let his son marry another princess or people from the court who are popular so he is popular with the people.

I'm not saying Jia Xu isn't good. I'm saying that we have no idea how well he would have done in a command position like Zhuge Liang or Zhou Yu. Jia Xu was a different kind of strategist than the others - he was one who worked from safety, so we have no idea how he would have fared in the "hotseat." And saying that "he was so good that he didn't need to lead troops" doesn't really make any sense, sorry.

As for not marrying his sons into the court, I fail to see how that makes him a better strategist. It makes him cautious because he doesn't want to be accused of attempting to usurp the court, which is smart, but has absolutely nothing to do with his abilities as a strategist.
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Will
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God of Death in Gundam Wing
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well im saying all 3 of what you post are bad commanders both sima yi and zhuge liang failed and zhou yu was just zhou yu getting his butt kick by cao ren
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Red Knight
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God of War
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Sima Yi had his moments, he was on par with Zhuge Liang, who was probably over the hill anyway. Zhuge Liang was a better strategist before the Northern Campaigns in my view.
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Little Conqueror of Jiang Dong
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江東之小霸王
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Shadowlink
Jan 29 2007, 06:45 PM
well im saying all 3 of what you post are bad commanders both sima yi and zhuge liang failed and zhou yu was just zhou yu getting his butt kick by cao ren

Zhou Yu defeated Cao Ren despite suffering an injury, not once losing a battle. Zhuge Liang and Sima Yi were two of the best commanders of the era (though at different times). Jia Xu never led a single battle, and for all we know, he never even had a soldier under his command, because all of his ranks are nobility, not military. Nothing is mentioned in his SGZ biography except being stationed in Dong Zhuo's army, and if you'll recall, Dong Zhuo lost battle after battle to Sun Jian. So if Jia Xu was truly there, he didn't have any great strategies to halt Sun Jian.
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Red Knight
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God of War
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Jia Xu came into "prominence" much later on, though. Jia Xu was more of administrator than an actual general. Sima Yi and Zhuge Liang coordinated campaigns and plans on the frontlines.
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Gray Serpent
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Soldier
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your all fools! i was the best strategist
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Little Conqueror of Jiang Dong
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江東之小霸王
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Cyrus The Great
Jan 29 2007, 09:10 PM
Jia Xu came into "prominence" much later on, though. Jia Xu was more of administrator than an actual general. Sima Yi and Zhuge Liang coordinated campaigns and plans on the frontlines.

Which is my point. Sima Yi, Zhuge Liang, et al. were placed on the tactical "hotseat" and had to come up with strategies on the spot. Jia Xu was never in such a position, so we have no way of determining whether or not he was as capable as Zhuge Liang or Sima Yi in those areas. He made great plans, but he never held a position where he was making those decisions on the field of battle. Even Xun Yu was in the battle formations at some point.
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Will
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God of Death in Gundam Wing
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Bofubutt
Jan 29 2007, 09:06 PM
Shadowlink
Jan 29 2007, 06:45 PM
well im saying all 3 of what you post are bad commanders both sima yi and zhuge liang failed and zhou yu was just zhou yu getting his butt kick by cao ren

Zhou Yu defeated Cao Ren despite suffering an injury, not once losing a battle. Zhuge Liang and Sima Yi were two of the best commanders of the era (though at different times). Jia Xu never led a single battle, and for all we know, he never even had a soldier under his command, because all of his ranks are nobility, not military. Nothing is mentioned in his SGZ biography except being stationed in Dong Zhuo's army, and if you'll recall, Dong Zhuo lost battle after battle to Sun Jian. So if Jia Xu was truly there, he didn't have any great strategies to halt Sun Jian.

He never offer any stragery to dong zhuo, only to zhang xiu, cao cao, Guo si and li jue and they all worked. Oh he helped the emperor too he never lose a battle either. Alot of people look up to jia xu and he didnt take alot of rank. Cao Cao was coming to crush them and zhang xiu wanted to attack, he offer a stragery right there, Cao Cao was better than zhang xiu and he knew that. I fail to see how zhuge liang, and zhou yu could have use stragery like jia xu
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Red Knight
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God of War
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Zhuge Liang used strategy at Chi Bi. That was the only time he did as a matter of fact. Jia Xu was the the mind behind the scenes, I think.
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General Liang
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KW War General - The Sleeping Dragon
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Another great strategist for Shu would be Ma Su. He was promised in every aspect of battle but he ingored Liang orders therefore suffering a major defeat.
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Wenze
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Omniscient Strategist
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Wu had the best strategists.

Zhou Yu- Many southern victories and helped the plan at Red Cliffs to work.

Lu Su- While not a great battlefield strategist, he was a great negotiator.

Lu Meng- You can only count him as a strategist for the later parts of his life, but he did have good victories.

Lu Xun- Great at defensive battles, he also had victories over the Shanyue.

Lu Kang- Held off Wei while dealing with traitors.

Zhuge Ke- Main strategist during the Shanyue campaign, achieved great sucess.

Zhang Ti- Although he was eventually defeated, he fought well against Jin's overwhelming numbers.

Bu Zhi- He acted along with Lu Xun in Yi Ling, and defeated the barbarians Liu Bei employed.


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Will
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God of Death in Gundam Wing
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Wei has the best advisors. Shu has the best civil but Lu Kang of Wu is the best. He surpasses Lu xun and Zhou Yu. But of coursE Jia xu is better than all of them
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