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| Which Kingdom had the best strategists? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:11 pm (5,341 Views) | |
| Alfie | Mon Apr 9, 2007 4:58 pm Post #26 |
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It's time to kick some ass and chew bubblegum...
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Wei, it's really a shame that Guo Jia died early though, he was teh best. |
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| Shinpusan | Mon Apr 9, 2007 9:42 pm Post #27 |
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First Lieutenant
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Guo Jia isn't nearly as good as he is made out to be. A lot of his accomplishments were that of Xun Yu's. |
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| Drewge | Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:53 am Post #28 |
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Officer
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i say all three had their good ones and bad ones. Wu had maybe Zhu Mao... they had Zhou Yu, Lu Su (or is it Li Su?), Lu Meng, Lu Xun ect... and Zhuge Jin!!! Muahahaha Go Zhuges!!! Wei had Guo Jia, Jia Xu, Xun Yu, Xun You, Man Chong, Not Sima Yi (he was gay)! and Shu had Zhang Fei, Xu Shu, Sun Qian(maybe), Jiang Wei, Ma Su, Zhuge f*ckin Liang! and i forget the others, they arent as important as the former. |
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| Levi1327 | Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:31 pm Post #29 |
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First Lieutenant
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well this is kinda off-topic but...i learned a lot of stuff reading this topic lol. =D |
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| Shogun | Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:28 pm Post #30 |
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Wei. The early years of Wei it was Guo Jia, the later years it was probably Zhang Hu or Sima Yi. Shu's next, Zhuge Liang and Pang Tong in the early years, than Fa Zheng and Jiang Wan in the later years. For Wu, Zhou Yu and Lu Meng, than Lu Kang in the later years. |
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| Sanada | Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:30 pm Post #31 |
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Even though I like Shu the best, followed by Wu. I would have to say Wei in stratigist. I'm sure they had a guy called Xi...something before Guo Jia as well, then so many more as well... (well I'm not big on the era, so only know Sima Yi and Deng Ai, after Guo Jia) EDIT: Xi Zhicai (found it on Wiki)
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| KouRyuExplosion | Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:11 pm Post #32 |
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Elite Soldier
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I have to say Wu. SHu's stratgeris demanded too much to work popular. (Elbarote plasn are great, but th emroe factors needed, the mor elikely it messes up.) While We's commanders for the most part seemed to jsut garner distrust. Wu did not suffer form such things. Sure their flaw was not planning/lnog term. BUt extremely flexible to make up a plan on the spot. And that in my opinion, in a f ront line/battle situation is far more useful, than a plan so orchestra, it requires EVER detial to be perfect to achieve. |
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| Will | Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:15 pm Post #33 |
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God of Death in Gundam Wing
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Zhuge Ke anyone? Lu Xun late age anyone? Lu Kang exiled? Dude that is why there is Jia Xu like Zhang Liang, you give good plans without getting that high and you live like a hermit. You secure your life too. |
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| AXOMME | Fri Jul 6, 2007 6:05 pm Post #34 |
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Zhang Run, a loyal general of Shu.
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If you mean in which kingdom were the most intelligent that's definatelly Shu though Wei had more in number. |
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| scholar | Fri Jul 6, 2007 7:05 pm Post #35 |
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damn someone beat me to the punch Zhuge liang and Pan Tong where brilliant stratigists Xu Shu in wei was smart butdid not help Jia Xu and Cheng Yu and Xun Yu and countless others weis stratigists where a dime a dozen even though they where smart <_<
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| Shinigami | Sat Jul 7, 2007 5:11 am Post #36 |
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Officer
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Shu, Zhuge Liang was brilliant in every way. If I remember history correctly, before Chi Bi started, Zhuge had to tell Zhou Yu that Cao Cao wanted to take his wife away from him to get him motivated to help Liu Bei and fight at Chi Bi. At Han Zhong, he knew how Cao Cao thought of Zhuge and his strategies. He saw through Cao Cao and proposed that they did the fake surprise attack trick. Which fooled Cao Cao and caused him a devastating defeat. Here is what I have to say about the other two Kingdoms Strategists. Wu: Zhou Yu was good in the first years of the Wu Kingdom (getting the territory they had) but he would have never thought up of a plan to stop Cao Cao's expansion to the south until Zhuge Liang had thought up of the Three Kingdoms Strategy. Without Zhuge's guidance, Shu and Wu would have been crushed long before they had made their Kingdoms. Lu Meng was fine battle tactician, but he made both a selfish and foolish decision in attacking Shu and executing Guan Yu, thus bringing the battle of Yi Ling. Lu Xun was an ok strategist, he did not do much to expand territory, but he truly shined in Yi Ling, he knew that a furious Liu Bei would not listen to the advice of his men and would blindly attack so Lu Xun patiently waited and then struck with the fire attack. I say that if Liu Bei would have listen to his advisors and waited to fight Wu, he would have won the entire land. But even if Liu Bei attacked and Zhuge advised against charging headlong into Wu territory. If he agreed to the advice, he would have won at Yi Ling for sure. Wei: Cao Cao anyone? He was probably one of the finest strategists until Xun Yu and Guo Jia came along. The man even wrote books over strategy and battle tactics. His experience did him well through most of his life. Guo Jia had to be the best of Wei strategists if he did not die so early, he was the one who proposed the flood attack against Lu Bu. Xun Yu, I don't really recall everything that he did except serve for a long time as an advisor to Cao Cao. Next I think would be Sima Yi, he was the only one who could match Zhuge Liang in strategy during the northern battles (excluding Jiang Wei). But Zhuge Liang beat him numerous times. But overall, Shu would have won if Zhuge Liang had not become ill and died. Or if Liu Chan had listen to Jiang Wei in his plans to fight Cao Cao. |
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| Shinpusan | Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:18 pm Post #37 |
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First Lieutenant
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No, no, Zhuge Liang was not a part of the Han Zhong campaign, Fa Zheng is the man you should be accrediting such accomplishments to. Also, he did not prompt Zhou Yu to action. Zhou Yu favored opposing Cao Cao from the beginning. Although, Zhuge Liang can be accredited with forming the alliance. |
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| Shogun | Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:57 am Post #38 |
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That's true, however he was needed at Han Zhong, without him, Han Zhong would've been lost to Wei way back. |
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| Will | Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:10 am Post #39 |
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God of Death in Gundam Wing
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I change my vote to Wu Lu Meng: Flawless victory Zhou Yu: Chibi I dont really think Lu Xun is that great because it was the landslide that hurt Liu Bei's army... if not Liu Bei could counterattack. I guess he was really good on defense and more. Lu Su: Had Gan Ning hold off the Shu army and had Liu Bei give Wu cities Lu Kang: Best overall for me... |
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| Shogun | Sat Aug 4, 2007 6:45 pm Post #40 |
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Like I said in the other "Lu Su" thread: On the contrary to the military, Lu Su's role in Chi Bi was purely diplomatic. He set off to accept Liu Bei in an alliance far before the idea was coming to their minds. He brought Zhuge Liang over for peace talks, who accepted them and brought the message back to Liu Bei (Zhuge Liang had little to no role in convincing the Wu courts to fight). After that, Lu Su was continually helpful to Liu Bei, giving him land after Zhou Yu's death, and keeping their relations strong until after his death, in which Lu Meng filled his shoes with a far more Zhou Yu-esque plan. So Lu Su was a good strategist, at least diplomatically >_> |
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| SRS | Mon Aug 6, 2007 3:26 pm Post #41 |
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Wei. They had Jia Xu. Jia Xu = Instant Win. Literally so. Also, just a reminder, a strategist is not the same thing as a tactician. |
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| Qilin Emperor | Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:46 pm Post #42 |
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Son of Heaven
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Shu, of course. They have Sleeping Dragon and the Fledging Phoenix. |
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| Crazypete | Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:29 pm Post #43 |
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KW's Zhou Yu
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I would have to say Wu. Because if it wasn't for Wu there wasn't going to be a Shu. Liu Bei fled from Cao Cao and ended up in an alliance with Wu. The main strategy during Chibi was Huang Gai's defection which Zhou Yu thought of. Zhuge and Zhou both though of the fire attack. Wei would have been good if their strategists didn't die young. Although i agree with Shinigami it was because of Cao Cao that Wei won the battle of Guandu.Also about Yi Ling. Zhuge was there wasn't he? then why couldn't he stop Lu Xun's startegies? Even after he created his maze Wu still won. in my opinion Zhuge Liang was excellent against Wei especially in Bo Wan Po and the earlier years until Sima Yi showed up. Wei Beats Shu in Chen Cang and Wu Zhang. Shu had Wei cornered until Zhuge's death) Wei beat Wu in He Fei because of Zhang Liao's attack. Lu Meng corners Guan Yu and kills him. Wu and Shu had a good relationship because of Liu Bei and Sun Shang's marriage..which..well still didn't help at all. |
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| Will | Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:45 pm Post #44 |
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At that point Wu already won, the fire was done, the main objective was to save Liu Bei... Zhao Yun came in but was too late... the damage was done. Zhao Yun got the short end of the stick he went against Liu Bei and told him not to attack Wu... he put Zhao Yun all the way back. |
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| the glorious sun jian | Sat Sep 15, 2007 6:15 pm Post #45 |
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There is no Knowledge that is no Power
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all zhouge liang,s actions in chi pi are fake he has nothing to do with chipi it was only huang gai and zhou yu plan that brougt the victory . for me wu :rolleyes: 1- Zhou Yu had many plan and had a good forsight and could see the armies weakness. 2- lu xun he could see the weakness of formation and was a very carfull man . 3- lu meng a good tactitian who took all of jing in days and excute g :rolleyes: eneral guan yu who was the most fearfull general in 219 . his plan wasnt selflish nor foolish it was kill or be killed i think lu meng did the right . wei jia xu :-never blame the people who say that this man was the smatest
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| Lone Wolf of the East | Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:24 am Post #46 |
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The Darkness Awaits me,But I Shall Conqueror It
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Hmmm....This is a tough One,So I break it Down... Shu: Zhuge Liang:The Man who keep Shu together through the Tough time,A Man who carfully Plans things...And Defeat Sima Yi a couple of times...The Sleeping Dragon... Pang Tong:Young Phoenix...the most talented among the scholars in the southern Jing Province...The One who Help Liu Bei take Yi... Xu Shu:He helped to provide strategies against Cao Cao when he attacked....Xu Shu recommended that he seek out Zhuge Liang, who would become Liu Bei's most indispensable and trusted advisor.... Fa Zheng:. After the death of Pang Tong, Fa Zheng was arguably the greatest tactician in Shu-Han...help Liu Bei Defeat Cao Cao at Han Zhong...It was Said if he Lived he would help Liu Bei Won at Yi Lang... Ma Liang:....Ma Liang was sent as envoy to Wuling to seek allies among the barbarians of the Five Streams...Not Much esle... Ma Su:Help Zhuge Liang defeat Meng Huo...But Lose to Zhang He at Jie Tang... Jiang Wei:Shu Last Hope...Lose as many battle as he Win...Died fighting for Shu... That it for Shu...Now for... Wei: Xi Zhicai:Cao Cao First tactician...playing many very important roles for Wei...But Died Young... Guo Jia:brilliance greatly aided Cao Cao in his victories over rival warlords Lü Bu and Yuan Shao, as well as chief of the Wuhuan tribe, Ta Dun....Do Also Died Young...It was said if he was Alive during Chi Bi Tao Tao would have Won... Xun Yu:strategist and statesman who served as a key advisor....Help Tao Tao Beat Lu Bu at Yan...Xun Yu's suggestion that Cao Cao chose to escort Emperor Xian of Han...Xun Yu dissuaded his master with a letter, highlighting several advantages that his army held over the Yuan forces and urging him to stand fast....Which Lead to Tao Tao Beating Yuan and taking over there Land... Xun You:He helped advised Cao Cao in the Battle of Red Cliffs alongside Cheng Yu....He served many lords such as He Jin, Yuan Shu, Dong Zhuo, and finally Cao Cao. Cheng Yu:Said to be a Giant*7'*... talented man on domestic affairs....He Guess what Zhou Yu was Going to do...But Tao Tao didn't believe Him...Cheng Yu was one of the few people who stayed with him during his escape from the battle... Jia Xu:went to join Li Jue and suggested him to gather troops and take Chang'an so as to avenge the death of Dong Zhuo and to take the Emperor captive,The plan succeeded....Jia Xu then Defeat Tao Tao Many times...and at Wan his Stragey Lead to the Death of Dian Wei and Cao Ang...*Joining Wei*Jia Xu laid out a plan which turned Han Sui against Ma Chao and ensured victory for Cao Cao.... Sima Yi:Defend Againest Zhuge Liang and Held Out...Which lead to Zhuge Liang Death...Sima Yi defeat Gongsun Yuan when he declared himself Prince of Yan... That It for Wei Now for... Wu: Zhou Yu:The Hero of Chi Bi...Defeat Huang Zu...Also Defeat Cao Ren at Yi Lang and take Jiang Liang...Also Prediect what Ma Chao was Going to do...But deid before he could do the Two Kingdom Plan... Lu Meng:The one who take Jing and Killed Guan Yu and his Son...Won a couple of Battle Againset Wei... Lu Xun:Beat Liu Bei at Yi Lang...Keep Wei in Check well in Jing...Also Help Lu Meng Plan to take Jing from Shu... Lu Su:took control of the military after the death of Zhou Yu....Very Skilled in Land Battle... Zhuge Jin:His most important accomplishment was in smoothing relations between Wu and Shu after Yi Yang Zhuge Ke:Very Well Like by Sun Quan...Zhuge Ke served as regent for his son Sun Liang, but the regency proved to be militarily disastrous due to Zhuge Ke's overagressiveness against Cao Wei....but later failed as a regent...but was also Killed in a revolt... Lu Kang:He was praised for his talent and wisdom...Famous for defeat an Enemy on one side and also defeating rebellion at the Same time...Also his famous for his foresight,Upon inspecting the border, he recognized many defensive shortcomings....*Do they were Heard on Deaf Ear*When Lu Kang was alive, Yang Hu did not dare to attack Wu.... Hmm...So I'm going vote for Wei...Not Sure Why do..Hmm... Edited by Lone Wolf of the East, Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:37 am.
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| Faichaimond | Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:18 pm Post #47 |
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Passer-by
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number-wise, of course wei....they have arguably the most ...even after sima yi's death, they have the likes of deng ai and zhong hui. however, shu had the best strategist in zhuge liang... he could also predict the natural causes...such as the stone formations that await wu after liu bei's retreat from yi ling...if not for huang chengyuan, lu xun and his soldiers would have been dead... jiang wei wasnt as great as to be a real replacement for zhuge liang, as he lost battles to deng ai, the wei strategist...and did not plan well for his supplies, making his army exhausted and of course, huang hao's foolish counsel made jiang wei's job even more difficult... after lu xun and maybe lu kang, wu had lacked decent strategists.. just look at their cowardly retreat from he fei castle when cao rui's navy came as reinforcements...they did not anticipate this at all... |
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| Pride | Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:09 pm Post #48 |
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孟德
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You're forgetting Liu Ye , Man Chong, Xu Shu , Cao Cao , Chen Chong , Chen Qun for Wei , Zhang Zhao for Wu and Zhang Song for Shu. Probably, Wei wins there, by both numbers and talent. In Shu, only one that sparks my interests is Fa Zheng and maybe Zhuge Liang. Fa Zheng helped Shu greatly and saw the kingdom's good over his own and stopped doing great things when he saw that his accamplishments are causing some jelousy in some officer's hearts. Zhuge Liang's good even when he is slightly overrated IMO. Lets see, he probably preditced the three kingdoms era, employed Jiang Wei which wasn't in turn that great. He did well in Chang Ban and made the right choice when he thought Liu Bie should be in Yi (Though that's more of common sense, though Liu Bie could have just stayed under Liu Zhang's protection like what he did with Liu Biao). Other than that, I dunno really. He lost alotta times against Wei, and some people are still debating about his southern campaign though he was a bright stretegist in his time, he wasn't as much as some people would make him. "He just sits in his camp and sip his tea". Wu probably got better strategists than Shu. They have Zhou Yu which is one of the top strategists of his time. His plan in Chi Bi was simply magnificent. How he helpt Sun Ce in his start was also great. He did quite well and probably acted as the acctual leader of Wu since Sun Quan wasn't that much of a leader. Lu Xun did good, had good control over his district and done well in some battles. In Yi Ling he defeated Liu Bie, he easily managed to weaken Shu step by step. He also won against Wei at Shi Ting. Lu Meng seems to have some good accamplishments specialy the won at Fan Castle. Rest of Wu aren't that high, or just were thinkers with no notable accamplishments though they would help when it comes to numbers. Wei in the other hand, got Cao Cao who is the man of his age IMO. Even if you don't count him in this, Jia Xu is , IMO, alot better than Zhuge Liang and even Zhou Yu too. Jia Xu proved his mettle even before joining Cao Cao and did great with him too. Man Chong managed to employ Xu Huang and did some advices here and there. Guo Jia did alotta things as you said, was the vital part in the campaign against Lu Bu. Did well in queling the northern tribes, shame he died early. Xun Yue and Xun Yu both got some exceptional talents. Cheng Yu helped in Guan Du and some battles and Chen Qun helped alot in inner matters. |
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| Dongzhou | Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:17 pm Post #49 |
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Supreme Warrior-Scholar
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Fai, that Zhuge Liang thing is from the novel, he historically wasn't a God like figure
Novel only I'm afraid
I suspect that is from a comment made by Zhuge Liang, probably jealously, that Fa Zheng would have persuaded Liu Bei not to fight Wu. He probably could have, not so sure he would have been against the war though.
Failed as a regent? Please could you explain that?
Yang Hu begged to be allowed to attack several times but the Jin court was split between dealing with a massive barbarian invasion and their own lack of urgency.
Chen Chong? Shu Shu had plenty of smart generals, the likes of Wang Ping, Zhang Yi's, Huang Quan, Hou Yi, Hou Chong, Lou Xian, someone able to come up with something if need be. However very few actual out and out strategists, that Jiang Wei and Zhuge Liang are on this list simply shows how little they had. Zhuge Liang: More a CiC who organised, he was inflexible and cautoius, threw away the first two NC's as he struggled for experience. Did a good job as commander but lacked the flexibility to be a strategist Pang Tong: Unproven talent, killed by fluke arrow Ma Liang: Unproven, showed little despite reputation at Yi Ling. Ma Su: Talented and showed some skill with Nanman (even if they did rebel again), problem was Jie Ting. Wang Ping's sgz suggests a man who crumbled under the immense pressure and acted out of character. Hard to tell what he could have done if used properly Fa Zheng: The Guo Jia of Shu. Only Guo came up with plans and wasn't corrupt, so vastly inferior. His best asset was manipulating Liu Bei into doing what Fa Zheng wanted Jiang Wei: Clever enough to best the likes of Wang Jing but struggled against Deng Ai, Chen Tai and Guo Huai, three very clever commanders. Was not fit for commander in chief role, his Hanzhong plan failed utterly. Peng Yang: Admired by Pang Tong and Fa Zheng, unfortunately he was arrogant and Zhuge Liang got him given a poor position. Plots revolt, executed They never had a Jia Xu, someone with both daring, ability to be persuasive and keep out of trouble, also with some common sense in plans. Shu lacked number and quality in this department, Shu's founding was down time and time again to Liu Bei's considerable talent and after 219, were struck trying to go through Hanzhong against a stronger army, a difficult task. Wu At one point, seemed to specialise in very smart commander in chiefs Zhou Yu: More a skilled commander with some smarts and an ability to accept others advice then a strategist. Offers no advice till urges for Chi Bi, takes Huang Gai's plan to win the camapign then has Lu Meng's advice to thank for rescuing his commanders in Jing. Fear Two Kingdom Plan is brave but too risky Lu Su: Like Zhou Yu, not sure if he should count. A political officer whose smarts was long term diplomacy rather then battles (witness his efforts in 215). Lu Meng: While one can question the long term worth of 219 invasion, it was a superb piece of campaigning, an excellent end to a fantastic career, improving himself and turning into a great military mind. Lu Xun: Lack of offensive record leaves question marks but he did defeat the very able Liu Bei and Cao Xiu, able in both long term vision and creating an advantage out of nothing. Suffers from having to work under an increasingly senile Quan, perhaps under a healthier Quan he might have done more. Very good Lu Kang: Outwits Yang Hu and Bu Chan once and maintained a strong defence. I do not think that, had Jin bothered, he could have held them back (several Wu armies made a valiant effort in the final try but there were too many armies to hold back) while he has to be questioned over his miserable failure against Lou Xian. Didn't help that things were going bad behind him. Zhuge Ke: Don't know enough to comment Yu Fan: Urged Wang Ling onto defence, urged Sun Ce to be careful while hunting, maintained his defences and secured Quan's succession, acted as an advisor to Lu Meng in 219 and helped bring Fu Shiren to surrender, opposed allying with Gongsun Yuan's clan. Clever but arrogant, eventually exiled after nearly being killed. I think the problem for many of Wu's is that after 219 there was nowhere to go. To get to Wei, they had to attack the well guarded centre or risk illness going through no man to He Fei were they inevitably beaten. Then with Quan's senile decline, infighting between Imperial family, tyrannical regents, incompetent emperors and Sun Hao, it was getting too much of a problem. Had in Lu Meng's 219 Jing camapign, a near flawless victory that other strategists would have envied. Wei Wei had so many to choose from, Chen Tai, Lady Xiangyang, Man Chong, Liu Ye, Jia Xu, Cheng Yu, Guo Jia, Xun Yu, Xun You are just the tip of the iceburg. Always going to be the case, most land, effective recruitment system. Problem is that generally, the old guard start to fade after defeat of Yuan and nobody steps up for awhile, a sizeable gap where Cao Cao could have used his senior advisor stepping up to the plate. Some like Liu Ye lacked the ability to persuade their master Tough call between Wu and Wei |
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| Lone Wolf of the East | Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:35 am Post #50 |
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The Darkness Awaits me,But I Shall Conqueror It
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@Nasser-The Reason why I didn't Note Liu Ye or Man Chong is because...I forget about them...Xu Shu didn't do jack for Tao Tao but stare at Him...Tao Tao was the Ruler so He doesn't Count*In My Opinon*Do he did come up with Good Plans...Chen Chong...Was he the guy that Bretray Tao Tao and Join Lu Bu...Chen Qun I feel he was More of a Poltical kind of Guy....Zhang Song Didn't Really come up with strategists for Shu...he kinda Died before he Could Get a Chance too...and Zhang zhao more of a political person...Didn't come up with Plans for a BattleField.... @DougZhuo-
Hmm ...I may Bad...I put that under the Wrong Zhang...I Meant to put that under Zhang Ke...I edit that...
Hmm...If I'm Mistaken...It says it...Here... If It not there then It more a Less a Fact...When Lu Kang was there in Jiang Liang...Yang Hu...did Not attack*Note after Xiling indecet*...It was After Lu Kang was Remove that Yang Hu Urge for a Attack... Edited by Lone Wolf of the East, Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:40 am.
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even though they where smart <_<





...I may Bad...I put that under the Wrong Zhang...I Meant to put that under Zhang Ke...I edit that...
8:10 PM Jul 11