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| Which Kingdom had the best strategists? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:11 pm (5,340 Views) | |
| Dongzhou | Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:34 am Post #51 |
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Supreme Warrior-Scholar
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SGYY is a novel biography, what you need is SGZ or in Jin cases, the Jin Shu. Yang Hu's JS translation survived the 3k site going down (though it does not comment on barbarian problem), warning it a pdf Yang Hu's bio
Edited by Dongzhou, Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:20 am.
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| Pride | Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:44 pm Post #52 |
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孟德
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IMO, should be counted. I don't recall him advising or making a strategy for Cao Cao but he did TRY to make ones for Lu Bu. When considering numbers, I think he deserves to be mentioned, just as Xu Shu. |
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| Dongzhou | Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:55 pm Post #53 |
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Supreme Warrior-Scholar
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You mean Chen Gong the Lu Bu advisor? I had no idea who Chong was thus the question. Shouldn't he count under others?
Edited by Dongzhou, Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:55 pm.
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| Wenze | Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:34 pm Post #54 |
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Omniscient Strategist
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Well, Chen Gong did help take the Yanzhou for Cao Cao through his diplomacy, though he is most known for his time under Lu Bu, so I wouldn't really consider him a Wei strategist in the end. Not to mention there are much better men from Wei to list than him. |
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| Fedric 555 | Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:12 am Post #55 |
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lord zhao yun
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the best strategists is shu(zhuge liang).he is very smart and he can set traps on the enemy. |
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| Kasumi | Thu Dec 18, 2008 9:06 am Post #56 |
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~Freyjadour Falenas~
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Agreed. I think the reason that ZGL is considered as much like a God because of the Ming Dynasty, which is pretty much the same why Guan Yu is is made as a deity and the God of War in China.
About his excellent traps like the Yin-Yang ones etc...it's not just in novel,right?
Quite true, although ZGL said that actually Pang Tong is a very talented and on par with ZGL, but that doesn't really prove anything.
Agree with this one too. I think he strived too much to be like ZGL (if this part is not a fiction fromt he novel). But on that period Shu doesn't have much choices, anyway.
Liu Bei rely too much on ZGL that makes the amount of considerable strategist in Shu is not significant. After the fall of ZGL the kingdom has started to fall.
Yup with this one. He's better as a commander, just like Lu Meng actually, rather than sit back in the back line and thought up some strategy.
Actually Lu Su is quite trusted by Sun Ce to handle a lot part of internal affair. I guess he was just outshined by the likes of Lu Meng, Lu Xun and Zhou Yu.
His success in capturing Guan Yu, one of Shu's main ace has proved his worth. Too bad that he died quite early.
About the offensive record, could you elaborate? Before actually his name rises (thanks to Lu Meng) actually he already has some records like supressing rebellions and such. And totally, definitely agree with the last part. He suffers to work under Quan, who can just dispose him in the end because Boyan prefered another son as the crown prince, after all he did for Wu - even as a prime minister.
For me, it's mainly because of the internal dispute. Quan's fussing for the next crown prince while clearly he already had his own favor out of all his sons really make it worse. Though Wu lasted the longest out of three.
Indeed, Wei had such a number for strategists - even Cao Cao himself is a genius strategist and commander himself. The problem is that Cao Pi decided to use the old system back which favors bloodlines and position rather than talents. And the backstabbing of the Simas. If I'm going to be bias, I'll certainly choose Wu, but generally I think Wei had the best strategists. |
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| Dongzhou | Thu Dec 18, 2008 9:45 am Post #57 |
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Supreme Warrior-Scholar
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Which one is that one? He did have a decent habit of ambushing in retreat, wiped out Wang Shuang and Zhang He (who hadn't wanted to pursue), clever though probably not quite awesome in the novel way
Not so sure it is try to be like (else he would have bothered with civil matters) but more trying to escape from Zhuge Liang's shadow. Zhuge Liang had killed two Wei generals, taken two towns, been one of the 4 great Ministers and people worshipped him. Jiang Wei, who if the letter to his mother is true, wanted fame this must have been annoying and if he could just get that one awesome victory and take towns himself, he could surpass his former commander.
Liu Bei doesn't seem to rely on Liang as anything but a civil officer, he mostly seems to rely on himself. Maybe had he lived longer, Bei could have found one or two more advisers but not too sure where from
beating the Shanyue revolts was something all good Wu generals seem to have done in their time but aside from that? He never takes anything from Wei, other then his 219 help, he never seems to come up with anything attacking wise to help the armies of Wu. |
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| Kasumi | Thu Dec 18, 2008 3:07 pm Post #58 |
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~Freyjadour Falenas~
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If what you means that he never really kills a general or take a town, like a commander (take an example of Lu Meng defeating Guan Yu or such?) |
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| Dongzhou | Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:04 pm Post #59 |
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Supreme Warrior-Scholar
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As the sole commander rather then subordinate against Wei? Don't recall him managing it |
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| divinerose | Wed Jan 7, 2009 2:52 pm Post #60 |
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Sergeant
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well for quality i would go 1. Shu 2. Wu 3. Wei For reliability i would go 1.Wei 2. Wu 3. Shu |
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| Pride | Thu Jan 8, 2009 4:21 pm Post #61 |
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孟德
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Shu's Pang Tong died early and didn't live up to the greatness he was put in the novel. Nothing seemed to back up that he is talented when looking at his accamplishments. Zhuge Liang isn't too impressive, Jiang Wei isn't that successful. Fa Zheng did great but stopped working hard as it was creating rifts in the army. I don't really see how you think Shu is better talent-wise , divinerose. @Dongzhou: lol yeah, misspelled him
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| Bai Xue | Fri Jan 9, 2009 12:51 am Post #62 |
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Didn't make it into history
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hmm this is a really hard call, because I don't know that much about the different strategists and everyone has quite good points here (I've learned a lot). But, I think I'm going to say Wei, followed by Wu then Shu. I like Shu but those guys got their asses kicked pretty early compared to the other two kingdoms, if I remember correctly... That, I blame partially on strategy. I know I shouldn't be basing decisions just on how things turned out in the end but I don't know too much on the battles so it's the solid thing I have to go by... |
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| divinerose | Fri Jan 9, 2009 12:40 pm Post #63 |
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Sergeant
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well thats why i dint rate them #1 on reliability |
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| EverLp | Fri Jan 9, 2009 1:39 pm Post #64 |
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General
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Shu......I going for Shu but too bad shu too relied on Zhuge Liang cause as soon as Zhuge Liang died Shu is going downwards and Wei will win in numbers because thier strategists and Wu will win in reliablitly because sun Quan almost listen to everyone suggestion before doing decision. |
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| Kaiser Von Bunnies | Fri Jan 9, 2009 8:58 pm Post #65 |
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Sladkaya Popka
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I'd say Shu...Then Wei...after all Wei DID have Master Yi, who indeed was a very smart man, but Zhuge Liang was better, though he wasn't quite as good after Yi Ling and Lord Bei's death, if Liu Bei had listened to Master Liang, Wei could have been beaten , and Pang Tong was exceptional aswell, but more of a tactician than of Strategist, and Jiang Wei isn't even Worth mentianing as a strategist, Master Liang would have done better to train a monkey
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| MysteriousStranger08 | Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:27 pm Post #66 |
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Right Hand Man
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Shu They had both Sleeping Dragon and Fledgling Phoenix A dead Zhuge Liang was able to defeat Sima Yi. Zhuge Liang indirectly also caused the death of Zhou Yu. Jinag Wei ain't to bad either |
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| Wenze | Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:50 pm Post #67 |
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Omniscient Strategist
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That's only in the novel, though. Pang Tong and Zhuge Liang are far less impressive, historically. Zhuge Liang also never had a rivalry or any negative contact with Zhou Yu. Jiang Wei was a complete failure. |
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| Moogle | Thu Jun 3, 2010 5:01 pm Post #68 |
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but first...
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I'd have to vote Shu, although I almost voted Wu. Shu had many intelligent strategists and often won simply through strategy more than the other kingdoms did IMO. |
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| Little Conqueror of Jiang Dong | Tue Jul 6, 2010 6:13 am Post #69 |
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江東之小霸王
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Even though I'm of the opinion that Lu Xun and Zhou Yu were two of the best strategists of all time, I voted for Wei. They had a much deeper talent pool. Allow me to run it down: WEI: Guo Jia Xun Yu Xun You Man Chong Cheng Yu Jia Xu Liu Ye Sima Yi Deng Ai Sima Shi Sima Zhao and many others Wei could win simply by the depth of their talent pool. Xun Yu, Guo Jia, Sima Yi, and Jia Xu were all Zhuge Liang-level talents. Man Chong was also a very able commander. Even some of the frontline generals like Xu Huang and Zhang Liao demonstrated a knack for strategy. WU: Zhou Yu Lu Su Lu Meng Lu Xun Lu Kang Zhuge Ke and many others I am of the unpopular opinion that Zhou Yu was just as talented as Zhuge Liang was. Zhou Yu is actually one of the few generals who never lost a battle. Yes, he retreated from the front lines at Nanjun due to an injury, but the siege continued and succeeded. While Lu Su, Lu Meng, and Zhuge Ke's accomplishments pale in comparison to Lu Xun and Lu Kang's, they were able military commanders nonetheless, and they were essential to Wu's expansion. Like Wei, even some of Wu's frontline generals, including the likes of Taishi Ci and Sun Ce, were very capable strategists. Even though Wu lacked the numbers of personnel that Wei had, none of their strategists ever dropped the ball like the ones in... SHU: Zhuge Liang Pang Tong Fa Zheng Jiang Wei Ma Su Ma Liang and many more Zhuge Liang deserves most, if not all, of the praise he is given. Similarly, Pang Tong showed great potential, and had he lived, things may have ended differently for Shu. Fa Zheng might have been quite a boon if he had lived more than five years after his recruitment. But the rest of Shu's strategists are a downright disappointment, and I don't see how anybody can vote for Shu just because they have Zhuge Liang and Pang Tong. Jiang Wei waged war after war against Wei and lost them all, draining Shu of valuable resources, and even committed the dumbest of tactical blunders by going back on Zhuge Liang's solid defense plan (pulling the border defense back to checkpoints), thus allowing Deng Ai to completely march around him and reach Chengdu. Ma Su blundered away victory at Jieting. Ma Liang never did anything of note besides recruit Sha Moke and get himself killed at Yiling. The rest of Shu's strategists, even the ones who didn't make some tactical blunder, were one-hit wonders. I'm not saying that Jiang Wei lacked talent, but he made a lot of really stupid decisions. Even Zhuge Liang wasn't infallible; unlike Zhou Yu, who made contingency plans (such as during his siege of Nanjun), Zhuge Liang relied upon one central strategy in each of his endeavors, and when that strategy failed, the Shu army was forced to withdraw. So, there you have it. That's my order. Wei, Wu, and then Shu at the very bottom. |
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| Beards | Tue Jul 6, 2010 9:49 am Post #70 |
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Emperor's Retainer
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Starting my post with something that ticks me off: Voting for Shu because of Zhuge Liang? If he was a great strategist, he would of taken care of his health, and he would of cleared Wei in all the invasions. He did not, so all the fame comes highly overestimated. Wei had the best strategist, and the largest pool of strategists. With the names already mentioned multiple times in this thread, Wei outranks Wu, and severely outranks Shu. Another thing that was noticable in this thread, is the one kingdom had better strategists due to "hotspots" or sitting in a room. The difference is actually big. An actual strategist doesn't take the field. They plan on how to defeat the enemy offencively or defencively, and they have the resources of generals and tacticians to execute it. The previously named tacticians are the ones that actually man the field. They lead and guide the the army towards the goal of the strategists plan, and they use 'Tactics' to form that strategy. And there is also an exception. Sima Yi was in the Northern Campaigns a Military Commander (If I recall correctly), which made him the leader over the army. But seeing he's quite wise enough, he was his own strategist with others supporting him. This part is a little unclear to me, since my memory of the history is vague. |
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| XMiss_InaX | Tue Jul 6, 2010 10:03 am Post #71 |
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another falls on my path to victory
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wei because sima yi is smart and cunning XD |
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| Pride | Sun Jul 18, 2010 5:01 pm Post #72 |
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孟德
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Quality or quantity? Shu gets scratched, Zhu-gay Liang wasn't so impressive in battles as he was made to be. He was a genious though, with his invenions and managing skills. He placed his trust on people that would destroy the kingdoms like Jiang Wei, Yang Yi and Ma Su. Pang Tong was his oppisate, great tactician but bad prefect. Still, died too early. Fei Yi was okay, he only battled once and that's about it, militarily speaking. Fa Zheng died too early as well. Wu and Wei, quantity it's definatly Wei they have a lot more awesome strategists than Wu does. Wu has many smart scholars though, not that Wei lacked any. Wu has Lu Meng who was one of the best strategists in the 3K era, while Wei had Deng Ai , Xun Yu and Jia Xu. Lu Meng only started his studyings late, and used it for a few fraction of his life, thus Wu didn't make the most of him, shame. Lu Xun didn't go on offensive campaigns save for Fan Castle which he did awesome in it. Then again, he also failed at He Fei. Though the guy has a nice record of successful defensive battles like Yi Ling, Shi Ting and the Shan Yue campaigns. Lu Kang didn't go on much battles, only 4-5 defensive ones against Jin. Zhou Yu is kinda overrated IMO.. but was great nonetheless. Chi Bi all goes to Huang Gai I think, but he helped in the unification of Jiang Dong nonetheless. I dunno though, Xun Yu was just brilliant. Jia Xu gave Zhang Xiu more than what he gave Cao Cao. And I think the likes of Lu Xun and Lu Meng single-handedly took Wu's matters into their hands, while Sun Quan did nothing. I vote for Wu here in terms of quality but Wei gets it in quantity. |
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| Demonic Warrior | Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:08 pm Post #73 |
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Emperor's Retainer
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First Nas, Ma Su was actually a great helping hand in the southern campaign, and Yang Yi was a pretty good minister Ma Su was condemned for one mistake at Jie Ting, but he was by far more skilled than Jiang Wei Fei Yi and Jiang Wan were more specialized in defense and civil matters, so, that's about it Pang Tong was one of, if not, the best strategist in the 3K, but he was like Sun Ce and Zhou Yu: He never knew when to stop attacking Fa Zheng was as corrupt as hell, but, he was also great Zhuge Liang was impressive indeed, but he was not so charismatic, what impeded his Northern Campaigns to go further But, Shu is not the best in strategists Wu had Zhou Yu, but, he was like Pang Tong. His 2K plan would have destroyed Wu, and he was not very good in offensive Lu Su I don't question. Lu Meng's plan was only succesful because of Lu Su's actions to help Wu grow bigger Lu Meng: A sucker who had one victory in his life and is called a hero until today Lu Xun: He didn't know how to win with heart, only with strategies. When his strategies failed, he lost Zhuge Ke: Well, a courageous one among many cowards, but his great failure killed him and his clan Ding Feng(both): Well, they did try, after all Lu Kang: He was the best, but he had nothing to do. Jin would eventually destroy corrupted Wu Wei had the greatest strategists. Sima Yi is beyond questioning, Xun You and Xun Yu were great politicians and strategists, Guo Jia is overrated but still great, Jia Xu is also unquestionable( the best in Wei, I say), Jia Kui is somewhat underrated, Chen Tai also seems underrated by some, Deng Ai and Zhong Hui were also unquestionable Edited by Demonic Warrior, Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:09 pm.
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| Pride | Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:16 pm Post #74 |
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孟德
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*checks section again* Um it is the history section, I don't recall Ma Su doing anything in the southern campaigns. Looking at his SGZ at Kongming, he sucked plain and simple. Liu Bei warned Zhuge Liang about using him, yet he used him instead of Wei Yan and Wu Yi. Yang Yi had some talent I agree, but he was enemies with all other Shu retainers. Seeing your post, you seem to focus on things like charisma. Personally, I'd use the badass Wei Yan than give Yang Yi some high rank.
O'really? 95% of the 3K generals were better than Jiang Wei, I don't think saying he's better than Jiang Wei helps in anything.
Yeah I know that, Fei Yi did lead one successful battle though, just saying lol.
And why is he one of the greatest? he was great, sure but Sun Ce and Zhou Yu? that's a very bold statement. Pang Tong failed at managing his city, Liu Bei removed his position as prefect as a result of his lack of ability. Yet he was a good tactician, he provided a very good plan to get Yizhou. But he died too early, Zhou Yu and Sun Ce in the other hand have more impressive accamplishments.
Um, honestly, I never really care about morals in warfare. I know Fa Zheng executed a lot of people for silly reasons, but he made a good plan to capture Hanzhong and defeated Xiahou Yuan. He was quite brave too.
IMO, what impaded his march is the difficult terrain to transport supplies. That and he lacked the ability to pick capable men.
Zhou Yu defeated Cao Ren, one of if not the best, general in his time. And that was an offensive battle, how is he not capable in offensive battles?
IMO, there are only three legends in the 3k. Cao Cao, Lu Meng and Deng Ai. Lu Meng is one there, he ran Wu by himself, he did things without even consulting Sun Quan and all proved to be good. He was a great general, and become a brilliant strategist. He bested Guan Yu at Fan, and Cao Cao at Ruxu. He helped defeat Cao Ren as well. Why, in blazes, does he suck?
Sorry, that doesn't make any sense to me. How can one win "with heart"? And um, 100% of the officers in the 3k era lost when their strategies failed ![]() He may not be divine, but he is without a doubt, a decent add in Wu's list. The rest you said, I agree with. |
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| Dongzhou | Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:04 am Post #75 |
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Supreme Warrior-Scholar
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Jiang Wei was never trusted by Zhuge Liang as more then a training monkey. Why shouldn't he trust Yang Yi? He served his purpose well enough during Liang's life time. Zhuge Liang trusted in able men like Jiang Wan and Fei Yi Pang Tong had one camapign with some iffy plans, might have been capable but wouldn't say great. Xun Yu was a great organizer and political figure rater then a strategist. Jia Xu at Guan Du, Chi Bi and against Ma Chao? Did give Wei more then he gave Zhang Xiu. To suggest Sun Quan did nothing is to ignore all he did for Wu. Yes Lu Xun and Lu Meng had a degree of control in matters but Sun Quan was still their overlord, they still had to run most things by him, Sun Quan was the one who made the final judgment for 219, overrode Lu Meng's succession plan and turned Wu from a place of exile into a prosperous land
Jiang Wei did win battles, he was a dreadful CIC but had some talent as a general. Ma Su was talented but, while I sympathize with the mental breakdown he suffered, he shouldn't have left his men to their fates. He won one battle Just out of curiosity, which of these do you count as the one victory? Defeat of Chen Jiu? Nanjun? Defeat of Xie Qi? Ruxu? Wan? The Jing camapign of 219 which was near flawless? After picking the "one" victory, tell me how the others are defeats perhaps care to explain why that was the problem for Zhuge Liang rather then the whole Hanzhong issue? I would question your mention of Zhong Hui |
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, and Pang Tong was exceptional aswell, but more of a tactician than of Strategist, and Jiang Wei isn't even Worth mentianing as a strategist, Master Liang would have done better to train a monkey


8:10 PM Jul 11