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| Which Kingdom had the best strategists? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:11 pm (5,339 Views) | |
| Pride | Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:13 pm Post #76 |
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孟德
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lol training monkey, good one ![]() To an extent, I agree. Zhuge Liang still thought highly of him, I admit that he didn't put that much trust or control to him, yet Zhuge Liang seemed to think highly of him.
It's probably not that much of trust anyways
True, Yang Yi was able, to an extent. But he had no loyality, he was full of himself and always had problems with those around him. Liu Bei didn't hold him so highly, why would Liang do that?
yup, I guess I say the word "great" a bit too easily lol.
Well he doesn't have an SGZ, but I've been told that most of Guo Jia's SGYY's advices were in fact ones that Xun Yu supplied.. is that true?
Chi Bi's advice wasn't so effective honestly. It didn't even sound logical to me. Guan Du's advice was okay, against Ma Chao.. now that was decent. I never said he wasn't good, in my opinion he's probably the best strategist in his times. But seeing that he spend little time with Zhang Xiu& Li Jue, yet managed to give out many advices, made me say that. His advices for Cao Cao weren't umm.. as often? I dunno that's how I view it, Cao Cao could have made further use of him.
Well, since we're talking about this militarily, Sun Quan indeed done nothing but losing at He Fei. Lu Meng did many things without consulting Sun Quan, critical things as well. Lu Meng executed Guan Yu without Sun Quan even knowing, he disregarded Sun Quan's orders to retreat upon attacking Hao Pu, actually when reading most of Lu Meng's SGZ you can easily find many events where Lu Meng's advices were always taken into consideration, and at times, he argued with Sun Quan even. Same thing with Lu Xun, while it was the correct decision, to give both Lu Meng and Lu Xun control over the military, let's face it, Sun Quan never really did much in that field. True, he was easily one of the best political and diplomatical figures in the 3k's era. When he failed at invasion, he handed that to Lu Meng and Lu Xun and they did well at that. |
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| Oblivion | Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:42 pm Post #77 |
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Aimless Wanderer
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Just thought I'd throw my 2cents but Zhuge Liang wasn't the finest judge of ability really with cases like Ma Su and Li Yan being rated higher than what they really were, the former even being denounced by Liu Bei himself... |
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| Dongzhou | Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:31 pm Post #78 |
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Supreme Warrior-Scholar
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Zhuge Liang could hardly say "My fellow regent Li Yan is a corrupt git who is barely any use", he had to compliment the guy. It's Liu Bei's fault for appointing Li Yan so highly in the first place Zhuge Liang made some great appointments and made some bad ones. People seem to remember only the bad ones while forgetting all the horrible appointments Liu Bei did. "Hey, Fa Zheng, let me give you control of people's lives", "Liu Feng, let me give you control of a reasonably important border city and a guy I don't trust", "That Fei Yi bloke is useless" Liu Bei thought highly of Wei Yan, a man who attacked his own side, alienated nearly everybody, showed repeated arrogance and made some stupid plans so clearly didn't have issue with such personality unless it becomes a problem. That Yang Yi had risen to a fairly high office in Liu Bei's time, till he fell out with Liu Ba, suggests Liu Bei didn't consider Yang Yi untalented.
Thinking highly of someone is one thing, he became a respected general and his refusal of riches would have made a favorable impression so not surprising. Whether he would have given Jiang Wei so high a position as he ended up getting is another matter
Xun Yu's SGZ Think it's more like Guo Jia more shared similar idea's sometimes whereas SGYY gives sole credit and sometimes it is Xun Yu's idea
I can see why you think that
fair enough |
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| KauSu | Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:12 am Post #79 |
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The General of Flying Douchebaggery
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Damn. Dongzhou, you're still crushing skulls in the history section? I bet you missed me. Anyway, in this one, I'm leaning towards Wei. But I haven't voted yet because I'm not totally convinced. It's a Wei vs Wu battle for me, though. Shu only had one or five notable strategists. |
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| Dirty Paintbrush | Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:44 pm Post #80 |
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All that, and I didn't even mess up my hair.
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Wu. Zhou Yu was amazing, and Lu Xun was an excellent protegé of his. Although I hate to admit it, Zhuge Liang was also very talented. |
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| Myllari | Sat Jul 24, 2010 6:09 am Post #81 |
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Saint Joan of Arc, Pray for us!
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If we're talking history, Wei by a mile. Everyone will say Zhuge Liang is the best of the best but in reality he was a great politician and not a top tier military strategist. Sima Yi has him beat on both counts as far as I'm concerned, Kongming would be more equal to Cao Cao (maybe). If you want to talk about battlefield strategists, here are my favorites (in no particular order): Jia Xu Deng Ai Fa Zheng Cao Ren Hao Zhao Zhang Liao Guo Jia Zhou Yu There are many politicians that jumped on the battlefield that people seem to think are great military strategists, when in historical reality they tend to be better civilian decision-makers. Zhuge Liang is a prime example, I won't dismiss his brilliance in battle tactics in his early days with Liu Bei but at the same time he is (or should be) far more revered for his administrative contributions to the Shu-Han "dynasty." |
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| Dongzhou | Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:14 pm Post #82 |
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Supreme Warrior-Scholar
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I can't speak for political but given Sima Yi's shambles of a performance against Zhuge Liang, I would question Sima Yi being better as a military strategist What's your definition of a battlefield strategist? Some of those you picked as more widely considered as generals |
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| Beards | Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:36 pm Post #83 |
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Emperor's Retainer
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Those "shambles" you said of made a sturdy defence, and he was performing much better than Xiahou Yuan and Cao Zhen. I wonder how that gave him the win against Shu's struggles, given that Zhuge Liang perished and Shu basicly collapsed. Stubborn assaults from Shu? Maybe, but it is due to Sima Yi's efforts (And of course the generals by his side) that Shu really had few to say. |
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| Myllari | Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:39 pm Post #84 |
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Saint Joan of Arc, Pray for us!
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Shambles? Care to elaborate? If you read SGYY, aka Luo Guanzhong's version of revisionist history, Zhuge Liang was given every excuse to fail during his five campaigns against Wei. Kongming was great at wasting the resources of Shu, in fact the only person greater than him in this aspect was his protege Jiang Wei. If either were so great, as many seem to perceive, than perhaps they would have truly mastered the Art of War instead of (Zhuge) writing a book about it. Zhuge Liang NEVER broke Wei's defenses to any great extent and was outmatched by the strategic planning of Sima Yi & Co. I remember a discussion I had a few years ago on SoSZ where a Zhuge Liang apologist was making the arguement that Sima Yi was a coward because he would never take his army off the defensive and have decisive battles with Shu. Why should he? Wei was being attacked and all that they need to do was sustain their defenses and wait for Shu's resources to run out, which obviously was the smarter choice given how Shu came to fall. As far as "battlefield strategists" go, I suppose one could break it down into a few different categories: Political, strategic military, battlefield. In short terms strategic military strategists oversee mass campaigns while battlefield strategists take commands from the top and relegate tactics on the frontline. I needed to be more specific as I can see how someone could consider the duty of battlefield strategists on or nearly on par with that of second tier generals or something to that effect. |
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| KauSu | Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:39 pm Post #85 |
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The General of Flying Douchebaggery
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Connection glitched, double posted, delete this.
Edited by KauSu, Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:48 pm.
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| KauSu | Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:48 pm Post #86 |
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The General of Flying Douchebaggery
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Zhou Yu was good. Had he lived longer I see him as being one of the greatest. As for Lu Xun, he was cool and collected, brilliant, so on. But he sucked at offensive campaigns. Come to think of it, Lu Xun, Lu Su, Lu Kang, Zhuge Ke all were mediocre at offensive campaigns. I'd rate Lu Meng as Wu's best. On Wei's side, theres: (IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER) - Guo Jia - Xi Zhicai - Jia Xu - Xun You - Xun Yu - Liu Ye - Man Chong - Sima Yi - Guo Huai - Jia Kui - Jia Chong (Later, Jin.) - Sima Shi - Sima Zhao (Later, Jin.) - Zhong Hui (I left out Deng Ai, Xu Huang, Zhang He, Zhang Liao, Cao Ren and some others because they were more of the "in-the-heat-of-battle" commander/tactician and not strategists.) And I think I left a few out. I guess my vote goes to Cao Wei! |
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| Dongzhou | Sat Jul 24, 2010 5:31 pm Post #87 |
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Supreme Warrior-Scholar
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Cao Zhen won both his camapigns with ease and drove Zhuge Liang back quickly. Sima Yi ended up turtling, losing his best general and having to be helped by his Emperor, who was busy against Wu. How was Cao Zhen's efforts inferior? Shu lasted for 30 years and prospered for 20 after Zhuge Liang's death. Shu's break from campaigning had nothing to do with Sima Yi but the caution of Jiang Wan then Fei Yi
Sima Yi's NC against Zhuge history: 1st) Sima Yi does well as the third force and defeats Meng Da with a surprise attack 2) Takes no part in it 3) Ditto 4) Loses first battle and turtles. Shu runs out of supplies and withdraws, Sima Yi ignores Zhang He's warnings and sends Zhang He out on pursuit. Zhang He dies 5) Sima Yi loses battle is forced onto defensive. Is nearly lured out but Cao Rui, who performs brilliantly during the crises, warns Sima Yi to stay his ground which is hardly a vote of confidence. Zhuge Liang dies and Shu retreats Forced onto defending, which is fine if your a local garrison like Hao Zhao but less impressive if you have command of Wei's western forces, and unable to win a battle. Is that not a shambles?
I have read the SGYY but was more referring to the historical figures of the SGZ and the ZZTJ then the novel ones. I try not to then use the SGYY characters to beat on the SGZ ones. Zhuge Liang did write texts but the "Art of War" book he is supposed to have written is probably a forgery The historical Zhuge Liang gained two towns, gave Wei a headache including killing two of it's generals and tended to retreat relatively intact. He was no military genius but he was a capable commander who learnt from his inexperience that blighted his first NC so horribly. Shu proposed for 30 years thanks to him and his successors. The odds on Shu winning were almost 0 after the events of 219 but Shu can either just surrender or try to do something. Zhuge Liang tried and nibbled away at Wei till his death, it was pretty good going. The "masterminds" of Wei's defences? Cao Zhen for the first two, Cao Rui for the last, the other two there really wasn't any. Jiang Wei was not his protégée, he was a training monkey while Liang was alive and didn't become CiC till the deaths of Zhuge Liang's two successors. Now there was a man ill-suited to being a commander, while a capable general in the field, he did indeed waste Shu's resources, allowed corruption and the people rioted against him.
I wouldn't say Sima Yi was a coward but he hardly stuck to the defensive. He tried open battle 4 times, lost 3 and was persuaded out of the last one. If he had tried to do what Lu Xun did against Liu Bei, that's fair enough. Bit awkward Cao Zhen didn't need to do that but it's a good plan. Problem is Sima Yi was forced to resort to it because he lost whenever he tried to fight Edited by Dongzhou, Sat Jul 24, 2010 5:33 pm.
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| Myllari | Sat Jul 24, 2010 5:32 pm Post #88 |
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Saint Joan of Arc, Pray for us!
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The more I think about it I would say that the best strategists, no matter what caveats are placed alongside that position, are the ones who played the best defense while being able to exploit their enemies immediately after the momentum shifted. If one looks at all the major, period-altering battles (ie Guan Du, Chi Bi, Mt. Ding Jun, Jing Provence {Guan Yu vs. Cao Ren + Lu Meng}, and Yi Ling) the victor in the end each time originally began on defense. Cao Cao let Yuan Shao's army wear themselves out and destroy their supply lines. Zhou Yu let Cao Cao's army fall victim to illness in an unfamiliar climate Huang Zhong held tight until Xiahou Yuan began losing it Cao Ren did everything he could against Guan Yu until Lu Meng invaded Southern Jing Lu Xun waited to capitalize on Liu Bei's ineptitude in setting battle formations The Sima Clan waited for Zhuge Liang and Jiang Wei to exhaust Shu's resources, then they waited until all of Wu's great defensive strategists died off My comments are generalized, but there is an obvious pattern in how history repeated itself during this period and also how some of the most highly regarded "strategists" never seemed to learn from it. |
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| Dongzhou | Sat Jul 24, 2010 5:41 pm Post #89 |
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Supreme Warrior-Scholar
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I believe it is rather because Liu Bei's men eventually got tired and sloppy, as tends to happen when an army is encamped too long. A defensive general has an advantage in the battle usually, though of course sitting on the defensive is not always an option and you have to play for the attack. Some of the best used it well, grind down the enemy army, let their morale sink, their attention waver and the best ones were sometimes able to launch a crushing counter attack. Mind you, my favourite defensive strategy is probably Zhou Fang's Shi Ting |
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| Myllari | Sat Jul 24, 2010 5:47 pm Post #90 |
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Saint Joan of Arc, Pray for us!
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Double post, Dongzhou was posting at the same time I was so I'm replying to his latest post now. Points well made Dongzhou and taken. Ultimately the two keys to Shu's fall were Guan Yu's loss of Jing and Liu Bei's strategic idiocy in trying to invade Wu. If Shu had not strung Wu along as far as returning Jing and Guan Yu being arrogant enough to think that he could simply raid a supply depot that belonged to Wu, perhaps things would have been different. If Liu Bei could have been replaced in Chengdu with Takeda Shingen after Mt. Ding Jun and Guan Yu could have been replaced in Jing with Uesugi Kenshin, Shu could have won. Also, if Zhuge Liang would have just deposed Liu Shan and declared himself Emperor while taking the offensive and leaving someone he had full confidence of in charge of Chengdu... his chances of defeating Wei would have been far better. Quite a bit of speculation there, eh?
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| Dongzhou | Sat Jul 24, 2010 6:51 pm Post #91 |
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Supreme Warrior-Scholar
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I don't think strategic idiocy is fair, he was just overly cautoius and allowed momentum to drift away from him. Liu Shan did nothing wrong during Zhuge Liang's time in fairness. SGYY blames him for the death of the dodo's It would have taken effectively two Cao Cao's, luck and some incompetence from Wei to change it after 219. Even before 219, when Shu had momentum, it was going to be tricky |
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| KauSu | Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:32 pm Post #92 |
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The General of Flying Douchebaggery
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Fa Zheng's death was the end of Shu! |
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| scholar | Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:15 am Post #93 |
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Fa Zheng was Liu Bei's Guo Jia. Losing a Guo Jia is a very bad thing, but... it is most certainly not the end of the world as evident by the fact that at his death Guan Yu was having a large amount of success in Jing, Cao Cao's hair was growing whiter every day (speculation), and Liu Bei was at the height of his career. Fa Zheng may have prevented maybe one thing if he had lived longer, the campaign into Jing. Truth be told Liu Bei nearly won the campaign except for nearing the end where a suprise attack nearly destroyed his southern army. His northern army was still in tact and the leader ended up going up north to Wei. Even so, the attack may have been prevented, but Shu's prestige and independence would be permanently damaged and their dependence upon Wu would have been too large to ignore. This restoration of the Han under Liu Bei would end in a fiasco as they become the pawns of a corrupt and decrepit government decaying from the inside. |
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| KauSu | Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:07 am Post #94 |
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The General of Flying Douchebaggery
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Oh yeah scholar, I've been meaning to ask you, or the other good 3k knowledge-bases I know (Dong and Wenze). What exactly was so flawed and corrupt in Wu? In Sun Quan's time, I mean. I keep hearing how they were corrupt and so on but I never see examples. (Except for Pan Zhang who was pretty bad ass.) |
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| Dongzhou | Sat Jul 31, 2010 8:09 am Post #95 |
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Supreme Warrior-Scholar
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Corrupt? I wouldn't say that, not unless we are talking after Quan's death, in which case it did become corrupt. Flawed? Yes. Sun Quan's warlord state went from strict and moral men like Zhang Zhao to psychopaths/murders like Gan Ning, Zhu Huan and Pan Zhang. Sun Quan allowed the psychopaths to get away with things but generally kept everyone under control until he grew old, then he started losing control which led to purges hen chaos after his death |
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| KauSu | Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:01 am Post #96 |
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The General of Flying Douchebaggery
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Ah. Zhu Huan. I think he was the greatest of the nutjobs. Because he was really a nutjob and nt just a murderer(Gan Ning) or greedy (Pan Zhang) |
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| scholar | Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:51 pm Post #97 |
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There were a lot of coups and the Sun family turned inward and found enemies in each other, executing those who fail in campaigns, or stripping them of rank and banishing them. It was a rotting core of a Kingdom. |
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| KauSu | Sun Aug 1, 2010 10:40 pm Post #98 |
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The General of Flying Douchebaggery
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You mean the whole Sun Chen drama? Or did anything else happen? OT: I still think that Fa Zheng > Anyone else in Shu |
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| scholar | Mon Aug 2, 2010 2:08 am Post #99 |
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Sun Chen was only one instance. The Sun family began to turn against each other with the Sun brothers. It only got worse as time went on. |
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| Demonic Warrior | Mon Aug 2, 2010 2:10 am Post #100 |
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Emperor's Retainer
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The problem is that Fa Zheng participated with his strateiges only in Han Zhong. Who knows if he could do good things for Shu? |
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