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Locked Topic
Christianity in Japan; All about it, I want to know
Topic Started: Wed Aug 1, 2007 3:25 am (1,514 Views)
atarei
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Im beginning a topic which I don have any much prior knowledge but perhaps ill start with this interesting question about Ishida Mitsunari being a catholic.

Someone on this board said in the untrustworthy Azuchi, Mitsunari was mentioned a Catholic but Iv read somehow that most people do find him a Christian. There was one site that said he was a Christian but refused to let me look further into the matter unless I paid. What I did get however was this

www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=7799462 - 15k

In it there is a passage that goes: "Christian missionaries gave him the name "Gibounochio." Why Christian missionaries if he was a Buddhist? What is Gibounochio, sounds very gibberish to me as it doesn make any sense in the japanese dictionary i have.

Also for a trivia fact, Hosokawa Tadaoki was a Christian before Akechi Gracia and he was influenced by a samurai lord called Takayama Justo Ukon. Quoted from:

http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue2/gracia.html

Here is an interesting question: How is it that a staunch supposed Buddhist (rather more a killer and extremely fascist, disgrace to the way of life-Buddhism) as Kato Kiyomasa worked with Hosokawa Tadaoki. The latter was driven by favour by Ieyasu settling a loan from a Toyotomi Hidetsugu and later the death of his wife in the forced hostage account by Mitsunari. What about the former?
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Shogun
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That's strange, Tadaoki's son was a complete anti-Christian, but I'm not surprised that SA didn't mention anything about that since they didn't say anything about Mitsunari being a Christian in the first place. I found that out on the Geocities site.
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LoW
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Shogun
Aug 1 2007, 09:56 PM
That's strange, Tadaoki's son was a complete anti-Christian, but I'm not surprised that SA didn't mention anything about that since they didn't say anything about Mitsunari being a Christian in the first place. I found that out on the Geocities site.

Is Geocities your only source? Since it doesn't seem to be reliable site and the biographies are written in strange way >_>.
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SlickSlicer
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atarei
Aug 1 2007, 02:25 AM
Im beginning a topic which I don have any much prior knowledge but perhaps ill start with this interesting question about Ishida Mitsunari being a catholic.

Someone on this board said in the untrustworthy Azuchi, Mitsunari was mentioned a Catholic but Iv read somehow that most people do find him a Christian. There was one site that said he was a Christian but refused to let me look further into the matter unless I paid. What I did get however was this

www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=7799462 - 15k

In it there is a passage that goes: "Christian missionaries gave him the name "Gibounochio." Why Christian missionaries if he was a Buddhist? What is Gibounochio, sounds very gibberish to me as it doesn make any sense in the japanese dictionary i have.

Also for a trivia fact, Hosokawa Tadaoki was a Christian before Akechi Gracia and he was influenced by a samurai lord called Takayama Justo Ukon. Quoted from:

http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue2/gracia.html

Here is an interesting question: How is it that a staunch supposed Buddhist (rather more a killer and extremely fascist, disgrace to the way of life-Buddhism) as Kato Kiyomasa worked with Hosokawa Tadaoki. The latter was driven by favour by Ieyasu settling a loan from a Toyotomi Hidetsugu and later the death of his wife in the forced hostage account by Mitsunari. What about the former?

Christian Missionaries and traders gave all kinds of weird names to characters like Ieyasu, Hideyori, and, I guess if what that source said is true, Mitsunari and others.

If that source is reliable, my guess is that 'Gibounochio' is a perversion of the nickname 'Jibu Shoyu,' which was sometimes used to describe Mitsunari (Hideyoshi especially called Jibu Shoyu a lot). Sometimes European visitors didn't precisely know how to translate or pronounce Japanese names.

I think I was the one who found that Azuchi Wind reference and then later denounced it. Thing is, I've never read a single book that backs up the claim that Mitsunari was a Catholic. That should strike some people as odd. I've seen references to fairly minor Christian characters, but never one in a book that described Mitsunari as being a Christian. Mitsunari was a fairly important character, so if he was really a Christian you would think that nearly all samurai books would mention him as such.
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Shogun
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LoW
Aug 1 2007, 08:15 PM
Shogun
Aug 1 2007, 09:56 PM
That's strange, Tadaoki's son was a complete anti-Christian, but I'm not surprised that SA didn't mention anything about that since they didn't say anything about Mitsunari being a Christian in the first place. I found that out on the Geocities site.

Is Geocities your only source? Since it doesn't seem to be reliable site and the biographies are written in strange way >_>.

About Mitsunari being a Chrisitan, I got it from Geocities, but Tadaoki's son being against Christianity, Samurai Archives. You can read it at the very last part of his bio.
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atarei
My soul burns brighter than any flame
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So basically the christian missionaries wished to expand their influence by naming the warlord of Japans huh. Why not in English though if they were that terrible in pronouncing Japanese and just for the luxury of discussion, what is Jibu Shoyu? About Azuchi well I guess you did post a lot in the history realm for me to remember which but I guess it is harder to confirm all these facts online.

For a fun fact, did you know westerners returned to their lands after landing in the Hokkien region in China having seeped the famous Ti Kuan Yin? Returning home, they only remembered TEA =p The Hokkiens are very proud of their Ti Kuan Yin.

One thing for sure, whether or not he was a Christian does not seem to matter as much as he was the fighter against Ieyasu and potential schemer and also an offender of Toyotomi elites isn't it? It seems only minor characters who needs more mentions like Tadatoshi (Tadaoki's son) is mentioned to be anti Christianity whereas there is no mention of Tadaoki as a Christian himself (in the samurai archives).

Geocities and other small sites does tend to have weird phrasing at times but it does present more facts and miscellanous trivia more so than the strictly European historian's books of Japan (sourced from online). Firstly there is more open opinions and smaller facts that most gloss through. In some ways in the sense its usually written with broken English, it makes me wonder if it could not just be someone who does not use the English language as a primary language and have more access to Japanese culture like a Japanese him/herself? The story they give sometimes is very believable (my example being the story of Rokumonsen that ties in with Yukimura's six diversion strategy) It is also refreshing to see another opinion than one of just one trustworthy historian because I think its impossible not to take a stand on perspective when writing history.

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SlickSlicer
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Quote:
 
So basically the christian missionaries wished to expand their influence by naming the warlord of Japans huh. Why not in English though if they were that terrible in pronouncing Japanese and just for the luxury of discussion, what is Jibu Shoyu? About Azuchi well I guess you did post a lot in the history realm for me to remember which but I guess it is harder to confirm all these facts online.


No and yes. The Christian missionaries did have hope for certain warlords. They invested their faith into men that they perceived to be powerful and able to spread Christianity. They relied on men like Otomo Sorin and Oda Nobunaga to allow them to teach in their lands.

So if you meant that the Christian missionaries planned to spread their influence by deciding who should rule Japan based on who was most favorable to their preaching, then the answer to your question is yes. However, the names they gave them was just what they perceived to be the names of those actual warlords. Mitsunari was usually called 'Ishida Jibu Shoyu' and sometimes just 'Jibu Shoyu' (Jibu Shoyu is a nickname; it's kind of like how many of the Three Kingdoms characters have 'style names) by Hideyoshi and his contemporaries, and the Westerners probably translated it into 'Gibounochio.' It's not that it's a terrible translation, and it might even be how Jibu Shoyu sounded to them. Remember though that at the time they didn't really have precise rules for English to Japanese or Japanese to English phoenitic conversion.
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Mo Hae
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Im glad people spread christianity!:) but didnt Hideyoshi banned it or something?
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atarei
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Hum perhaps underground operations. As in most cases and the bible in Christian respect, nothing disappears so long as it continues to be opressed. I would say the ban would only have strengthen their resolve to try harder i'd say. Though I am a bit curious... If Hideyoshi did ban Christianity what of his Catholic general Konishi Yukinaga, sounds very weird doesn it? It is interesting however if Mitsunari being a right-hand man to Hideyoshi was indeed a Christian though :lol:
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SlickSlicer
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Hideyoshi really enforced the whole 'Christian expulsion' thing very laxly. He wasn't going to ban all missionaries permanently, and only passed his expulsion edict, according to some historians, as a precautionary measure. I could probably find you some more concrete details from Will Durant's Our Oriental Heritage or Mary Elizabeth Berry's Hideyoshi, as both of these sources discuss the act, why it was passed and its consequences (maybe not the former one, actually, but I think it did).

I believe Takayama Ukon was one Christian to feel the act's consequences, but Hideyoshi wasn't going to get rid of Konishi Yukinaga because the latter was a great general.

^I might have just slaughtered the order of those two names. I forget which ones are their clan names and which ones are their given names. >_<
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Shinpusan
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Slick, you're totally goin' to hell for that, it's Konishi Yukinaga, you correctly stated Takayama Ukon, though.

Also, check your sig, I believe you should have quoted yourself, Slick, not this person named "Silck".

=P
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Shogun
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Yeah, what Shinpusan said, SILCK.

*Edits Slick's post*
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SlickSlicer
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Thank you Shinpusan and Shogun. I'm tired and am forgetting a lot of crap today.

And I put 'SILCK' (all caps too) purposefully, because that's how Jin quotes my name in signatures and crap and I think it's funny. >_>
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Shinpusan
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I do like the bugg666, though, nice touch.
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atarei
My soul burns brighter than any flame
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Slick why don't you actually post in a brief summary on the different approach towards Christianity and history in japan through Oda Nobunaga until Tokugawa Iemitsu time? :P It sounds very interesting and you sound very knowledgeable on the issue.

I also would need clarifications exactly what "precautionary measures" was Hideyoshi taking in banning Christianity?
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SlickSlicer
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atarei
Aug 6 2007, 03:30 PM
Slick why don't you actually post in a brief summary on the different approach towards Christianity and history in japan through Oda Nobunaga until Tokugawa Iemitsu time?  :P It sounds very interesting and you sound very knowledgeable on the issue.

I also would need clarifications exactly what "precautionary measures" was Hideyoshi taking in banning Christianity?

One time a Spanish sailor was shipwrecked in Japan. He was brought into questioning by the Japanese. Will Durant's (famous historian along with his wife Ariel, who actually didn't seem to help him write this particular book, also his first very big one) Our Oriental Heritage deals very little with the Sengoku-Jidai period when talking about Japan, but does go into detail about the reigns of Toyotomi Hideyoshi and Tokugawa Ieyasu (mis-written as Iyeyasu in the book, it seems). Here is what the book says on the matter of the shipwrecked sailor in a footnote (drawn from page 843):

"In 1596, A Spanish galleon was forced into a Japanese harbor by Japanese boats, was purposely driven by them upon a reef that broke it in two, and then was pillaged by the local governor on the ground that Japanese law permitted the authorities to appropriate all vessels stranded on their shores. The outraged pilot, Landecho, protested to Hideyoshi's Minister of Works, Masuda (not sure who this was, but it might be a mis-writing of Mashita Nagamori. Seriously, I don't know though). Masuda asked how it was that the Christian Church had won so many lands to be subject to one man; and Landecho, being a seaman rather than a diplomat, answered: "Our kings begin by sending into, into the countries they wish to conquer, religieux who induce the people to embrace our religion; and when they have made considerable progress, troops are sent who combine with the new Christians; and then our kings have not much trouble in accomplishing the rest."

He cites a source for this information too, but I don't really understand what it's supposed to say. The bibliography says [Note] '59. Ibid., ii, 288.'

Hideyoshi was apprehensive about Christians for other reasons too. When he went to conquer Kyushu, he learned that the daimyo Omura Sumitada (first daimyo to convert to Christianity) had given the port of Nagasaki over to the Jesuits. He didn't like the idea of gaijin having power, so naturally he didn't want the Jesuits to hold this piece of real estate. The precautionary measures I spoke of were designed to stop a foreign religion from spreading that could potentially help foreigners from invading or cause the new foreign religion to undermine Hideyoshi's administration.

Here is some more of what Our Oriental Heritage says about Hideyoshi's actions (page 840):

"Alarmed at this spiritual invasion [of Christianity], and suspecting it of political designs, Hideyoshi sent a messenger to the Vice-Provincial of the Jesuits in Japan, armed with 5 peremptory questions:

'1.) Why, and by what authority, does the Vice-Provincial and his religieux (Members of religious orders) constrained Hideyoshi's subjects to become Christians?
2.) Why they induced their disciples and their sectaries to overthrow temples?
3.) Why they persecuted the Buddhist priests?
4.) Why they and the other Portuguese ate animals useful to man, such as oxen and cows? [Remember that the Japanese ate more of a rice and fish diet at this time]
5.) Why he allowed the merchants of his nation to buy Japanese and make slaves of them in the Indies?'

[Source quoted is [Note] '50. Murdoch, ii, 241.']

^I think this is supposed to be 'James Murdoch's History of Japan.'

Not satisfied with the replies [that he got in response to these questions], Hideyoshi issues, in 1587, the following edict:

'Having learned from our faithful councillors that foreign religieux have come into our realm, where they preach a law contrary to that of Japan, and that they have the audacity to destroy temples dedicated to our native gods Kami and Hotoke; although this outrage merits the severest punishment, wishing nevertheless to show them mercy, we order them under pain of death to quit Japan within twenty days. During that space no harm or hurt will come to them. But at the expiration of that term, we order that if any of them be found in our States, they shall be seized as the greatest criminals."

[Source quoted is [Note] '51. Ibid., 243.]

Edit-Confirmed without a doubt that the mention of 'Hideyoshi's Minister of Works Masuda' is simply a perversion of 'Mashita.' This is referring to Mashita Nagamori, who was the second biggest of Hideyoshi's 5 go-bugyo (the first biggest being Ishida Mitsunari, although Mashita held a fief equal in size to Ishida's). Also confirmed without a doubt that 'Murdoch' is referring to James Murdoch, who is the one who called 'Mashita,' Masuda.
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Shogun
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Since Otomo Sorin was Christian, do you think that he would've welcomed Nobunaga if the Oda army reached Kyushu?
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YukiZM
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Shogun
Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:22 pm
Since Otomo Sorin was Christian, do you think that he would've welcomed Nobunaga if the Oda army reached Kyushu?
maybe, Nobunaga built many christian temples but Nobunaga himself wasn't a christian in fact he didn't have any religious views.
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SRS
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Do not bump and answer three-year-old threads.

Locked.
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