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| Best Wei Frontier Leader; Obligatory spam topic description. | |
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| Topic Started: Aug 14 2007, 10:46 AM (904 Views) | |
| SlickSlicer | Aug 14 2007, 10:46 AM Post #1 |
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In my opinion, there were three main Wei leaders who held Shu back from taking Chang'an and other castles/cities in the West. These were Cao Zhen, Sima Yi and Deng Ai (they came successively, meaning that Cao Zhen came first, then Sima Yi and then Deng Ai). Who do you think was most successful in repelling Shu? |
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| Shinpusan | Aug 14 2007, 10:51 AM Post #2 |
First Lieutenant
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I can't bring myself to vote yet, personally, I'll have to think on it for a while, as they were all very good generals. And I personally like all three. =\ |
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| Shogun | Aug 14 2007, 11:04 AM Post #3 |
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Camel Inquisitor
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Yeah, what Shinpusan said. I think it'll be either Sima Yi or Deng Ai. |
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| Wenze | Aug 14 2007, 03:14 PM Post #4 |
Omniscient Strategist
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Hmm, while all three were very talented, I have to go with Deng Ai. He not only repelled the invasions but took the opportunity to invade himself and take down Shu. Though, besides those, Chen Tai, Guo Huai, and Hao Zhao deserve a good mention as well. |
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| SlickSlicer | Aug 14 2007, 04:26 PM Post #5 |
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Cao Zhen also tried an invasion, but heavy rains and heavy fortifications helped Zhuge Liang. Ultimately, Cao Zhen retreated without really any gain. I don't think Sima Yi ever really attacked Shu, but when Meng Da rebelled in Xin, he did take him down. That doesn't really count though, even though Meng Da probably would have defected back to Shu. Also, the reason why I listed those 3 was because they seemed to be in an overall command capacity, rather than just being generals who fought Shu.\ Edit- Source: http://www.aall.ufl.edu/EMC/vol5/vol5killigrew.pdf (page 14); source listed on it for this information is as follows- "Sanguozhi 33: 896, [Sanguozhi?]9:282, Zizhi Tongjian 71: 2261" |
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| Red Knight | Aug 14 2007, 05:00 PM Post #6 |
1948-2009: THE GRAND SLAM DREAM LIVES ON!
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I would have to say Sima Yi and Deng Ai. Sima Yi won multiple victories against Zhuge Liang and Deng Ai invaded/conquered Shu. Both of them repelled "great" strategists. |
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| SlickSlicer | Aug 14 2007, 05:17 PM Post #7 |
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Like when? Sima Yi barely won any victories against Zhuge Liang. |
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| Shogun | Aug 14 2007, 05:21 PM Post #8 |
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Camel Inquisitor
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But he definately accomplished more than "ZL" did. |
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| SlickSlicer | Aug 14 2007, 05:23 PM Post #9 |
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That's a very blanket statement and a statement that's also very debatable. If you're going to make a big declaration like that, I'd like to see you back it up with a comparison between the two that proves that Sima Yi did indeed accomplish more (complete with sources). In my opinion, their accomplishments were about equal, but Zhuge Liang's were more important for Shu than Sima Yi's were for Wei. |
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| Shogun | Aug 14 2007, 05:44 PM Post #10 |
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Camel Inquisitor
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I've already discussed this before, so I'll just show you the comparison:
This isn't the end of it but, I take back what I said about him having more accomplishments, it was an unfair comment. |
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| SlickSlicer | Aug 14 2007, 06:02 PM Post #11 |
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Yes he was. Also, the comment about Zhuge Liang not being a good commander has no basis. How exactly is it known that he wasn't a great commander, and what proof do you have to back this up? Maybe he never headed a vanguard on a battlefield, but when it came to commanding troops and giving orders to subordinates on what to do, he was incredible. Cao Zhen was great in this respect too. He knew how to divide troops up among his subordinates and how to order them around. That's why I personally think that he and Deng Ai tie for best frontier leader. The talent thing doesn't exactly make that much sense either. I don't think that Zhuge Liang ever promoted Jiang Wei to a ridiculously high rank during his lifetime. Just because he accepted him into the Shu folds, which was a good idea anyways, doesn't mean that he was bad at spotting talent. Also, that source I quoted above deals with the Shu defeat at the Battle of Jieting and states that it might not have only been caused by incompetence on the part of Ma Su, but was also possibly partly Zhuge Liang's fault.
What exactly IS political maneuvering? And how was Zhuge Liang bad at application of talent?
This makes no sense in the context of their nominal positions. Sima Yi and Zhuge Liang weren't rulers. They were ostensibly the subordinates of their kingdoms. It wasn't their job to hand-pick an heir. It was their kingdom's job to find a suitable replacement for them after their deaths. Thus, I don't think that this point is valid, and don't think that it should go as a point for Sima Yi.
Yes, he did accomplish what he set out to do. However, he had more resources to do this. Although it is true that he did an excellent job of strengthening the frontier in the West through domestic projects and so forth, Wei was still defeated over and over by Shu in battles. Of course it was a lot more easy for Sima Yi to hold Zhuge Liang back than for Zhuge Liang to push Sima Yi back.
The phrase 'complete failure' is questionable. He did occasionally make small gains, and his campaigns were progressive. Although he did not succeed in taking Chang'an, he did trounce Wei forces in battle after battle. He screwed up in his initial few campaigns though, and did occupy probably the highest rank in the Shu military. I don't understand exactly what point you're trying to make here. On the subject of Wei's best frontier leader, I think that militarily, Sima Yi did some stupid stuff. Domestically, he did develop Wei's western areas, which helped in the longrun. However, I think Cao Zhen did an overall better job of repelling Zhuge Liang, and I also feel that Deng Ai was great at dealing with Jiang Wei. |
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| Shogun | Aug 14 2007, 06:41 PM Post #12 |
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Camel Inquisitor
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How? I stated that Zhuge Liang wasn't that great of a commander, which means even less for Sima Yi.
Jiang Wei was promoted about 2 times that time, and he was only in his 20s, look where what he got himself into then.
And exactly what are you trying to prove here?
How is he bad? Think about the two stars that they picked up over their years... Zhuge Liang has Ma Su and Jiang Wei. Sima Yi has Deng Ai. That alone trumps anyone that Zhuge Liang endorsed (Li Yan, for example).
Dude what the hell, there were high ranking people who served there nation, they can be considered rulers, but rulers aren't the only ones that need heirs.
True.
He kept attacking, thus having more control over the situation,yet was forced to retreat over and over again. I think you do understand my point, If Zhuge set out 6 times to take something, then he should have been able to see more success, since he had control over when, where, and how the attack was done. Rather than only look at Sima vs. Zhuge in terms of the northern campaigns, I look at them both overall. Zhuge did not see repeated successes even though he set out many times, unlike Cao Cao, Zhou Yu, Lu Meng, Liu Bei, etc. Sima Yi also did not, but he also did not lose nearly as often IMO. |
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| SlickSlicer | Aug 14 2007, 06:50 PM Post #13 |
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Which doesn't prove how Zhuge Liang was not that great of a commander. How was he not a great commander?!
Alright, I concur that Deng Ai was better than Jiang Wei. So what?
That Ma Su wasn't a complete and total imbecile. In this case, it would show that Zhuge Liang wasn't wrong for trusting him, necessarily.
Application of talent=/=recruiting people. Zhuge Liang applied his talented generals, especially people like Wei Yan, quite well.
I could say the same thing (what the hell?). They didn't need to pick heirs. That wasn't their job, and Sima Yi wasn't exactly thinking: "Ok when I die Deng Ai will be my heir. Make it happen Wei!" Picking heirs wasn't their job, and has nothing to do with one being more talented than the other.
No. Sima Yi lost quite often. He just didn't lose in the overall scheme of things. Neither did Zhuge Liang, though, and I think that this is a point that is being missed. Zhuge Liang could have made an all-out push, but what if he lost? If he lost it could mean the death of his kingdom. He could have kept attacking frantically after every victory, but Wei was in such a good defensive position that there's a good chance he would have suffered heavy casualties, run out of supplies or suffered from other problems. His cautious approach might have saved Shu more than it hurt it. Think about Nagashino: Katsuyori followed up his victories at Takatenjin and other battles with an all-out push. He lost, and he is now jeered by historians for being an idiot. Zhuge Liang could have easily used the momentum he got from his field victories....but what if he lost? Overall, I fail to see how Sima Yi was better than Cao Zhen or Deng Ai. He lost so many times against Zhuge Liang, and was constantly tricked by Zhuge in the exact same ways [historically, I mean]. |
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| Gryffin | Aug 26 2007, 10:57 PM Post #14 |
Han's Unifier
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Hm, maybe a bad idea for me to jump into a debate so soon, but I'll put my two cents in. Keep in mind that I haven't read the book (or any of the history) in ages, so I may mess up facts. I voted for Sima Yi over Deng Ai not on the basis of talent, as they both have a great deal of it, but for how they interacted with their peers and lord. Sima seemed a good deal better at playing the popularity game than Deng, so to speak. Granted, after I cast my vote, I realized that Cao Zhen was probably just as good as Sima in that sense, but ah well. As for Cao and Sima, I felt that Sima had a greater degree of success outside the single context of the Northern Campaigns. (For instance, putting down the rebellions of Meng Da and Gongsun Yuan) Once again, I may just be mistaken, so take what I said with a grain of salt. |
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| SlickSlicer | Aug 26 2007, 11:48 PM Post #15 |
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I agree with you in that regard Gryffin (and by the way, WELCOME BACK!!!), but ignoring Sima Yi's accomplishments in putting down those two rebellions, supplying grain to Luoyang when there was a drought and earning a high position in the Wei court, I think that he wasn't as great in combatting Zhuge Liang as...say...Cao Zhen. |
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| Gryffin | Aug 27 2007, 12:01 AM Post #16 |
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Han's Unifier
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('s great to be back, Slick. Missed talking about 3K) Well, I don't remember what Cao Zhen did, so I'll have to agree until I look it up. After which, I'll most likely agree with you anyway. Is this a discussion of the three purely in terms of military capability, though? Although Cao Zhen may be a better commander, I still think Sima fits the Sunzi's role of the general as a "pillar of the state." I guess it depends on what we mean when we say Wei's "best" frontier general. |
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| SlickSlicer | Aug 27 2007, 12:05 AM Post #17 |
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Well it's more about just how well each of these three men dealt with Shu-Han...I guess. Well that's what I was thinking about when I made the poll and thread, at least. |
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| Wenze | Aug 27 2007, 12:55 AM Post #18 |
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Omniscient Strategist
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Cao Zhen did pretty well against Shu-Han, and Sima Yi usually came out on top in the battles(If just because he was defending, which is much easier), but I still think that Deng Ai handled the situation the best. He defended well and invaded when he saw the chance, ending the Shu-Han threat once and for all. |
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| Gryffin | Aug 27 2007, 02:03 AM Post #19 |
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Han's Unifier
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Hm, you know, you just pointed out something that I had not considered. One of the reasons that I had ruled out Deng Ai was that by the time he had rolled around, Shu was already starting to falter. Still, he saw his moment and went for it. And Slick, in that case, yeah, I would say either Cao Zhen of Deng Ai. Misinterpreted the nature of the discussion. Man, this is fun. Haven't done this in ages. Gotta go in Kongming.net one of these days. Edit: Just did. Qustion for anyone regarding Cao Zhen: It said in his bio that he and Xiahou Shang campaigned against Sun Quan and defated him. Does anyone know the details of the campaign? |
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| Wu Fei | Aug 27 2007, 02:47 AM Post #20 |
Tiger General
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Speaking for myself, there is no doubt about it that the best Wei's western frontier general is none other than Sima Zhongda in terms of defensive. Sima Yi basically spent most of his life defending Wei against Zhuge Kongming's constant military expeditions to recover the Northern Heartland. Yongzhou and Liangzhou were vital points of Wei as it consist of the Western Han capital of Chang'an, providing Wei with rich fertile lands for farming and much of the horses were raise their for combatant. Even though Sima Yi basically lost every engagement he had against Kongming, his defensive tactics prevented Zhuge Liang from touching Chang'an. Much of Yongzhou had fallen into the hands of Han forces; Tianshui, Anding, until the arrival of Sima's surprisingly speed after crushing Meng Da's revolt. With Ma Su's lost of Jieting, Zhuge's forces basically lost a strategic defensive position letting Wei until from northern region and thus being able to push the Han forces back to Hanzhong. And who knows the Guanzhong region of the western frontier could have fallen under Han's forces control if it weren't for Zhongda. I gotta give him high credits. As for offensive Deng Ai is not doubt the undisputed leader for Wei's offensive into Sichuan. |
 書劍恩仇錄 "True knowledge is knowing the extent of one's ignorance" - 孔子/Confucius | |
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| Gryffin | Aug 27 2007, 03:59 AM Post #21 |
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Han's Unifier
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Actually, I think Cao Zhen organized the recapture of Yongzhou from Shu. I thought Sima did for the longest time, but it said in Cao Zhen's SGZ bio that he did it. Which, ironically enough, would make Cao Zhen the most important of the three by your arguement alone. Funny, huh? |
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| SlickSlicer | Aug 27 2007, 04:12 AM Post #22 |
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Well, Cao Zhen was the commander of Wei for the first few Northern Campaigns, anyways, and including the one involving the Battle of Jieting. He's also the dude I voted for. 
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| Wu Fei | Aug 27 2007, 04:23 AM Post #23 |
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Tiger General
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Maybe in your opinion. . I have my own views. From reading on my own accounts taken from the Sanguo Zhi.
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書劍恩仇錄 "True knowledge is knowing the extent of one's ignorance" - 孔子/Confucius | |
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| SlickSlicer | Aug 27 2007, 04:37 AM Post #24 |
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Well, you're right in your assessment of Sima Yi. Though commanding his forces in such a way that they lost many battles against Zhuge Liang and Shu, he defended Chang'an. But that's exactly why I think Cao Zhen's better. He commanded his troops in such a way that they didn't lose that many battles against Zhuge Liang, and he also prevented Shu-Han from penetrating too far into the Yong and Liang regions. In addition, when he was appointed to contain Shu-Han, it was at a time when Shu-Han had completely surprised the Wei forces in the West, largely due to the fact that, after Yiling, Wei considered Wu much more of a threat than Shu, and Zhuge Liang was able to take Wei by surprise. Yet despite this, Cao Zhen held back Shu. |
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| Wu Fei | Aug 27 2007, 04:49 AM Post #25 |
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Tiger General
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That's basically my exact theory right there. Now, we can all agree that Cao Zhen was also excellent in his leadership defending Guanzhong. My vote goes to Sima Yi because, Zhongda had surpassed the years more than Cao Zhen. After Cao Zhen's death, Sima Yi was basically the one in charge of defending Yongzhou. Now back to my beliefs, the main reason I give high credits to Sima Yi was for holding back Kongming throughout the years even after Cao Zhen's death. My post was merely a statement on a good defensive tactic by Sima Yi. Nowhere did I state that Cao Zhen was a bad leader or a criticism of Cao Zhen did I? Of course all of you have your own opinion, but that's basically the fact that stays in my head no matter what.
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書劍恩仇錄 "True knowledge is knowing the extent of one's ignorance" - 孔子/Confucius | |
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