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Naoe Kanetsugu; Overrated, much?
Topic Started: Sun Sep 2, 2007 3:52 am (5,173 Views)
SlickSlicer
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Koei gives him awesome stats in their NA games, and he's now a playable samurai in Samurai Warriors, but how good was he historically?

Although I guess he's kind of revered in Japan, to an extent, what did he do that was so great? He supported Kagekatsu during the Otate no Ran, but I don't even know what he did! He took Hataya Castle and then got his ass handed to him by Date Masamune and the Mogami. The Uesugi were totally defeated during the Sekigahara Campaign.

Afterwards he retired and wrote a law code called 'Injunctions for Peasants.' (Look it up here).

Basically, I don't see what he did that was so great. And he certainly wasn't a 'justice' freak like in SW. If anything, he was a total ass and, although an ok Uesugi commander, not a great one.
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Kratos Aurion
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I guess the Uesugi were lacking in officers, and Koei just figured theyd find some random dude and make him an unforgettable but cool Justice freak. Historically, he recruited Maeda Keji, didnt he? In a sense thats one good thing he did. Other than that nothing else comes to mind, really..I was about to say he was a Toyotomi loyalist, but seeing how he surrendered to the Tokugawa....
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SRS
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He, uh, had a wonky helmet?
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SlickSlicer
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Lord_Nagamasa
Sep 2 2007, 04:38 AM
I guess the Uesugi were lacking in officers, and Koei just figured theyd find some random dude and make him an unforgettable but cool Justice freak. Historically, he recruited Maeda Keji, didnt he? In a sense thats one good thing he did. Other than that nothing else comes to mind, really..I was about to say he was a Toyotomi loyalist, but seeing how he surrendered to the Tokugawa....

He didn't really surrender. Uesugi Kagekatsu did, and Naoe Kanetsugu bowed to his decisions in the end...

Didn't his helmet have the kanji for 'love' attached to it or something? Sw2 didn't even give him his wonky helmet. They just have him some white carp's tail one or something..

Edit-Although I seem to remember getting a 'Love Helmet' in Kessen III during the stage where you fight Uesugi Kagekatsu and have to save Toshiie and Katsuie. Hmm...I wonder where that came from! :rolleyes:
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Shogun
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He was a great leader, and one of the best Uesugi retainers in Kagekatsu's time. Also, when the Uesugi transffered to Yonezawa, he managed a fief with an income of over 60,000 koku. Those are the only things I can remember when I first read his bio.
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fukushima
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Those are basically the only things on his bio

bar the injunction for peasants book. I was rather disappointed
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LoW
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I think he also convinced Maeda Keiji to join Uesugi ranks >_>.
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Red Knight
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And that was a wonderful achievement because Keiji got his ass handed to him mulitple times with style and gusto, Naoe really knew talent*sarcasm*.
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SlickSlicer
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I know next to nothing about Keiji, and therefore can't assess the validity of that claim.
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LoW
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SlickSlicer
Sep 3 2007, 02:24 AM
I know next to nothing about Keiji, and therefore can't assess the validity of that claim.

I think it's mentioned in Naoe Kanetsugu's SWXL bio. However, I have no idea how good friends they really were.
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SlickSlicer
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Quote:
 
I think it's mentioned in Naoe Kanetsugu's SWXL bio


SWXL=SWXl. This=history. Unless that bio provides reliable sources that affirms that, I don't believe anything.
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LoW
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SlickSlicer
Sep 3 2007, 09:39 PM
Quote:
 
I think it's mentioned in Naoe Kanetsugu's SWXL bio


SWXL=SWXl. This=history. Unless that bio provides reliable sources that affirms that, I don't believe anything.

The events and certain stories in game might be made up, but bios for the most part aren't. I personally don't doubt it.
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Red Knight
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In regards to my earlier statement, Keiji was recorded as saying at the end of his last battle as saying "A beautiful defeat is better than an ugly victory." That doesn't really say good things about Keiji's battle record or Kanetsugu's decision making process.
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SlickSlicer
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LoW
Sep 3 2007, 07:44 PM
SlickSlicer
Sep 3 2007, 09:39 PM
Quote:
 
I think it's mentioned in Naoe Kanetsugu's SWXL bio


SWXL=SWXl. This=history. Unless that bio provides reliable sources that affirms that, I don't believe anything.

The events and certain stories in game might be made up, but bios for the most part aren't. I personally don't doubt it.

Good for you, but Koei's bios in their encyclopedia often have mistakes. <_<
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Red Knight
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No really? It doesn't mention anything in Azai Nagamasa's bio about him practically holding his son hostage and forcing him to commit seppuku, for example. And keiji's bio in SWXl doesn't mention the quote in my last post.
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Sanada
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Red Knight
Sep 3 2007, 08:13 PM
No really? It doesn't mention anything in Azai Nagamasa's bio about him practically holding his son hostage and forcing him to commit seppuku, for example. And keiji's bio in SWXl doesn't mention the quote in my last post.

He didn't say it says everything, he said what is said is pretty accurate <_<

I really don't know anything good Kanetsugu did, but I have not really looked :unsure:
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Red Knight
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Well, Kanetsugu retiring from his job was a good thing in itself. Probably advising Kagekatsu and helping the Uesugi survive, however counter-productive his methods were.
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SlickSlicer
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Quote:
 
I really don't know anything good Kanetsugu did, but I have not really looked


He took Hataya Castle during a campaign in AD 1600. That's all I know.
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Kratos Aurion
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Didnt Oda execute Asai's son? According to the Samurai Archives, thats how it happened..but then again, i cant even find a single thing about Maeda Keiji in that archive..
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SlickSlicer
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I think that's correct, but I don't know (about Asai's son). And to be honest, I can't find much about Maeda Keiji period. O_O

This is basically all I got when I asked about Keiji:

http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?t=2259

(By the way, not trying to seem ungrateful at all. I still learned something from what that dude said, and I'm glad for even that bit of information...)
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Kratos Aurion
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Wow. Maeda Keiji seems like..he was a petty little officer compared to alot of people who dont make the cut in the games..did he even accomplish anything? Did Naoe?

Quote: Samurai Wiki's Naoe Kanetsugu Page

Naoe Kanetsugu
From SamuraiWiki

* Born: 1560
* Died: 1619

Kanetsugu was a son of Higuchi Sôemon Kanetoyo and served Uesugi Kagekatsu. He was largely responsible for the Uesugi manuevers against Tokugawa's allies in the north. He captured Hataya castle but was defeated at Hasedo castle. After the Uesugi were transferred to Yonezawa in 1601, Kanetsugu received an income of 60,000 koku but soon after retired.

End Quote

So he at least took a castle. Score one for Kanetsugu. Adopted? his father was Higuchi Sôemon Kanetoyo..

oh, and heres what it said about Asai around the Odani siege event

Quote:

Nobunaga turned against Odani once again, drawing out the Asakura army, which was ambushed and routed before it could reach Nagamasa. Now isolated and seeing the end had come, Nagamasa returned O-ichi and his three daughters to Nobunaga, and committed seppuku. Nagamasa's son and only heir, Manpukumaru, was not allowed to live, and was put to the sword (by) Nobunaga.

The Asai's army was considered an effective force and, in fact, at Anegawa, it came very close to defeating Nobunaga's larger force. The Asai relied on the support of their retainer clans, which included the Isono, Atsuji, Shinjo, Akao, Amemori, and Imai, and in total could muster some 10,000 men for battle. These troops were equipped with a somewhat higher number of rifles then one might find in a clan of the Asai's means since, during the 1560's, they and the Asakura collaborated on a gun-making workshop at Kunimoto (Ômi).

End Quote

So..what were you saying about Asai holding his son hostage and forcing him to kill himself, where did you hear/read that?
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SlickSlicer
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I *think* he was originally Higuchi Kagetsugu, but don't quote me on the name. I forget.

Suffice it to say, he married into the Naoe clan, and changed his name.

And exactly! Your feelings on this are exactly like mine. :mellow:

These thoughts equal my thoughts
 
Wow. Maeda Keiji seems like..he was a petty little officer compared to alot of people who dont make the cut in the games..did he even accomplish anything? Did Naoe?


Side Note: Still, I like both their SW personas, and think that Koei adding them was, all in all a good idea.
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Kratos Aurion
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Yeah agreed, historically they werent so hot, but in the game Kanetsugu is one of my favorite people, since hes all about the Honor and Justice! so my verdict: Overrated yes, JUST LIKE HONDA, but still a useful man, Naoe Kanetsugu was.
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SlickSlicer
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Ah, for the Asai son thing, I was saying that I thought you were correct earlier, as opposed to what Red Knight was saying. But then again, I've only read that from Samurai Archives. I'm having a discussion on their forums right now about Anegawa, so maybe it might go a little further and I can get more info about it...

Yeah, Honda's overrated, but I could still probably tally up a list of achievments he did that would amount to a LOT more than Naoe Kanetsugu's or Maeda Keiji's accomplishments. Oh well, like SRS said, at least Kanetsugu had a cool helmet. o_0
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Shogun
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LoW
Sep 3 2007, 07:44 PM
SWXL=SWXl. This=history. Unless that bio provides reliable sources that affirms that, I don't believe anything.

The events and certain stories in game might be made up, but bios for the most part aren't. I personally don't doubt it. [/QUOTE]
I read a lot of bios in that game's archives, but I've spotted many flaws.
Red Knight
 
No really? It doesn't mention anything in Azai Nagamasa's bio about him practically holding his son hostage and forcing him to commit seppuku, for example. And keiji's bio in SWXl doesn't mention the quote in my last post.

Even though I agree with SWXL's bio not being historically accurate, your statement doesn't make much sense, and there are a lot of things not mentioned in a particular SA bio but it is mentioned in the other.
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