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| Naoe Kanetsugu; Overrated, much? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sun Sep 2, 2007 3:52 am (5,176 Views) | |
| Red Knight | Tue Sep 4, 2007 6:57 pm Post #26 |
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God of War
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Nagamasa and Manpukumaru commited ritual suicide, Nobunaga didn't kill them directly. What battles were Naoe involved in, other than Otate no Ran, Hataya and Hasedo? |
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| DrewTheDude-Dono | Sun Oct 14, 2007 6:13 pm Post #27 |
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VAN DAMME KNOWS NO WEAKNESS!
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I think you guys should also note that Keiji was known to pull of lots of tricks on Toshiie. I think this may be a big part of why they use him in the media because it gives creators some inspiration as to how to make his character. |
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| Maoming | Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:45 am Post #28 |
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Chugoku's Finest Strategist
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Despite being a minor person historically, Keiji is loved in japan as the patron of mischief and adventure. I was first introduce to him when I read a badass old comic about him by the same man who made Hokuto no Ken. Keiji's most famous accomplishment was something about defending the rear of the retreating Uesugi army with his pike and horse by himself. As Kanetsugu, he's really well known in Japan as the first man to formally speak out against Ieyasu. He wrote a letter or something denouncing him and encouraged others to do the same. |
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| Shogun | Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:23 pm Post #29 |
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What battle are you talking about? Where did you get this information about Keiji covering the Uesugi's retreat alone? Which battle was it? |
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| Shinpusan | Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:05 pm Post #30 |
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First Lieutenant
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I'm assuming he's referring to Hasedo. |
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| Shogun | Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:12 pm Post #31 |
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And I'm assuming it came straight from Wiki. Happy b-day btw. |
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| Shinpusan | Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:43 pm Post #32 |
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First Lieutenant
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Never said he was right. =P And thank you, Shogun. |
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| DarkDante | Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:55 pm Post #33 |
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A new power is rising
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He served both Uesugi Kenshin and Kagekatsu and was Kagekatsu's Chief Advisor he also recruited Maeda Keiji as well. He sounds like a decent commander, about the the loss to the Date and Mogami, the Uesugi were heavily outnumbered and it was a feat that Maeda Keiji managed to cause as much as damage to them as he did. |
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| SlickSlicer | Thu Dec 6, 2007 9:26 am Post #34 |
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Could you please cite your sources for this information? |
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| DarkDante | Fri Dec 7, 2007 1:06 am Post #35 |
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A new power is rising
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Most of it is just info I picked up from looking at the various bios on Kenshin, Kagekatsu, Kanetsuna, Kanetsugu and Keiji etc. at samurai archives. Anyway could someone please translate this: http://shungansho.fc2web.com/meguruhito/maeda.htm Seems to be more info on Keiji. |
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| Yuuhi | Sat Dec 8, 2007 5:00 am Post #36 |
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Sergeant
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Kanetsugu is probably best remembered for a letter he wrote to Tokugawa Ieyasu, in which he blasted the old guy for overstepping his boundaries, for treason against the Toyotomi etc. That was after the Tokugawas accused the Uesugi of rebellion. Ieyasu was apparently so pissed off by the daring letter that he gathered daimyous from all over to attack the Uesugi. It was during this time when Ishida Mitsunari took the chance to gather armies to attack Tokugawa from the back, which was the famous Battle of Sekigahara. So it was actually Kanetsugu who built up the chances for that to happen. He probably planned a pronged-attack with Ishida Mitsunari, with the Uesugi at the front and Mitsunari's western armies at the back. However, his plans to defeat the Mogami clan swiftly was thwarted by Date Masamune, who went to Mogami's rescue. Furthermore, Ieyasu had turned back swiftly and defeated Ishida Mitsunari in a decisive battle. After that, all was history. It would be nice if the Uesugi stuck with the Toyotomi clan, of course, but that was barely realistic. Most clans were pragmatic back then, and survival of their own clan was most important. Just like how the Sanada split up to ensure survival both ways. The Uesugi clan was never the same again after Kenshin's death, as its strength had been greatly weakened after the succession wars between Kagekatsu and Kagetora, and some capable retainers died as a result. Not to mention that even though Kagekatsu was a good leader, he was far from Kenshin's quality. Who would eventually rule the lands, the Toyotomi or Tokugawa, it was already clear after the Battle of Sekigahara. The Uesugi was lucky to scrap by with just a reduction in lands, and they knew well enough what to do in order to survive. Kanetsugu was also well-remembered for his non-violence policy during his exploitations in Korea. He also preserved precious Korean cultural items (books, paintings etc), and he earned the praise of Toyotomi Hideyoshi for that. |
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| LoW | Sat Dec 8, 2007 12:42 pm Post #37 |
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Legend
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Kagekatsu and Mitsunari were actually behind the whole plan. They had exchanged letters in secret and decided to crush Ieyasu together when the time was right. Ieyasu, however, was aware of their plan and allowed them to believe that he had caught the bait. Later Ieyasu told to his allies in east to be prepared against the Uesugi. Ieyasu made his move after Kagekatsu had tried to kill Ieyasu's messenger. Ieyasu then told Kagekatsu to come to Osaka and explain his actions, but Kagekatsu never replied to this. This caught Ieyasu's attention and he started to prepare his army for the battle against the Uesugi. Fortunetly, for Ieyasu, Mogami and Date armies were enough to keep the Uesugi army occupied and he was able to march to Sekigahara with his back covered. |
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| Sanada Nobushige | Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:18 pm Post #38 |
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Sergeant
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well i heard NHK will make a taiga drama which the story centers on Naoe Kanetsugu .......well maybe we could learn a little information from there..... |
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| Ice Prince | Mon May 26, 2008 8:03 am Post #39 |
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Hopeless Ladyboy
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I don't necessarily think Kanetsugu is overrated, but possibly "over exaggerated". Obviously that's not his fault. It's true he was openly defiant to Ieyasu, but other than that, he just seemed like he was simply a loyal retainer to the Uesugi (serving both Kenshin and Kagekatsu) and later serving Hideyoshi. Afterwords as Yuuhi mentioned, he got praise for his non violent treatment of Korean culture during the Korean campaign. This is possibly due in part to Buddhist teachings he was exposed to during his time in the Uesugi (I'm not quite sure what his religion was, but I'll assume he was close to Buddhism), but nothing concrete. |
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| Greenzaku | Sun Nov 23, 2008 2:52 am Post #40 |
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Grilled fish and tequila
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Erh.....I just read this off the Wikipedia entry for Kanetsugu... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naoe_Kanetsugu "....Kanetsugu served first as a kosh¨ (СÐÕ) and pederastic sexual partner(Shud¨'s partner) of Uesugi Kenshin,and Kanetsugu was loved most by Kenshin...." O_O *head explodes* (Given the recorded birth dates for both Kanetsugu and Kenshin, Kenshin died when Kanetsugu was eighteen and was thirty years older) I have not seen this before anywhere else...can someone elaborate? Edited by Greenzaku, Sun Nov 23, 2008 2:53 am.
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| shirosaki | Sun Nov 23, 2008 7:02 am Post #41 |
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Soldier
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Someone mentioned it briefly before, but since it's been confirmed for the next NHK Taiga drama, I figured I'd let you know. It's called Tenchijin. I don't know all the cast roles, but here are the definites: * Tsumabuki Satoshi as Naoe Kanetsugu * Kitamura Kazuki as Kagekatsu * Tokiwa Takako as Osen-no-Kata * Oguri Shun as Ishida Mitsunari (the fangirl in me squealed at this) * Fukada Kyoko as Yodo-Dono * Shirota Yu as Sanada Yukimura (and this) * Kamiji Yusuke as Kobayakawa Hideaki It starts running on Sundays in January, and will continue until December. I forget who, but there's a group that usually picks up the Taiga dramas and subs them. Since Oguri Shun is in it, a few more might pick it up than usual. |
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| Fedric 555 | Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:01 am Post #42 |
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lord zhao yun
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well,he serve takeda shingen very polite.
Edited by BlackKite, Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:55 am.
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| Astus | Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:09 am Post #43 |
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No he did not. He served the Uesugi. |
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| Greenzaku | Fri Jan 9, 2009 3:29 am Post #44 |
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Grilled fish and tequila
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Just grabbing some random Kanetsugu Youtube stuff here: Kanetsugu's castle, 3d flyby tour part 1. http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=CEvOqGY9B4Q&feature=related part 2 http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=6CE0JeV37SU&feature=related Kanetsugu's grave, with his wife. http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=IFfccnVRlSk&feature=related NHK Drama 'Tenchijin' promo vid http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=nFhVP4oL0vY&feature=related lol...Kanetsugu merchandise as a result of the drama series: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM6Kb7Eg3XU&feature=related A Kanetsugu....BUS? XD http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=WX04bxoEtxE&feature=related |
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| DeeEmm | Fri Jan 9, 2009 7:41 am Post #45 |
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Officer
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I'm pretty sure this is just a theory.
Well, Shudo was a very common practice in the Sengoku...Shingen also had a few IIRC Kenshin was a bit of a horndog for the laddies - amongst his vassals there was a guy from the Kinki region, apparently brought to Kenshin for his beauty. No sources, unfortunately, since I read this off another history site. So I wouldn't be particularly surprised if Kenshin and Kanetsugu did get it on a bit. PS: Maybe there's a reason Kenshin wasn't into women?
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| Greenzaku | Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:53 pm Post #46 |
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Grilled fish and tequila
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I'm getting equally reputable sources saying Kenshin took no partners, regardless of sex; that's why bonking Kanetsugu just totally came out of left field for me. However it is also true that while he was known as having stuck firmly to his religious vows; monastic vows back then only applied to relations with the opposite sex. So it's not impossible that Kenshin could have become effectively homosexual while following the law to the letter *shrug* The whole thing about liking lots of boys however comes from a single fictional work and nowhere else, so while I'm prepared to accept how this could have happened; I'm not assuming it happened either. |
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| supply_captain | Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:22 pm Post #47 |
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Elite Soldier
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or maybe uesugi kenshin loves war more than women.. well he worship bishamonten..and naoe is a man and he goes into war.. so he love naoe sorry just an opinion
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| Sanada Nobushige | Wed Feb 4, 2009 2:15 am Post #48 |
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Sergeant
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just watched tenchijin and i have become Kanetsugu fan hahahaha actually Kanetsugu didn't have to marry Osen cuz he already had Naoe blood in him(his mother was sister of Kagetsuna) I really admire a general who doesn't have concubine........ Edited by Sanada Nobushige, Wed Feb 4, 2009 2:27 am.
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| HimikoIsKickin' | Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:43 pm Post #49 |
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Apples to Apples is a violent game.
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Yeah, I read that too, and found it most...interesting. Apparently Kanetsugu was rather pretty But after he Kenshin died, didn't he go on to be 'special friends' with Kagekatsu, too? He sure got around. |
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| Kiheiji | Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:58 pm Post #50 |
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Miracle Violence
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I don't think he become Kagekatsu's "boy toy", since he's married after Kenshin's death. And Kenshin died after the victory at Tedorigawa. He was 49 years old. There are some tales that kenshin wasn't completly celibate. It was said that he had a crush on a rival daimyo's daughter, but Kageie opposes him. The girl went to be a nun and died afterwards, so this may kinda cause him to not like woman. |
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sorry just an opinion


7:51 PM Jul 11