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| Tweet Topic Started: Fri Oct 5, 2007 2:43 pm (12,911 Views) | |
| LordTerrantos | Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:28 am Post #226 |
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Emperor's Retainer
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to be fair Seimei is still more famous then Masako Hojo, and most characters added into WO had various myths about them. Kiyomori Taira had a myth where he became a demon after his death so thats why he is a demon in WO. Fu Xi, Nu Wa, Susano'o, Nezha are all Gods in thier respective mythologies (okay Nezha is a Demi-God in actual myth but still). and Zuo Ci while he is a DW character he also has various myths, even one where he was able to live up to be 300. Seimei Abe is not really a Mary Sue character and i am not going to tell you to like him. but to Hanbei and Ginchiyo he is very famous and Legendary. He was a Onmyouji or a Exorcist or Demon Slayer depending on translations. With the ability to use Shikigami or summon Demon Familiars. even in his legends/myths he was able to command lesser demons at a young age, because of how much a genius he was. His Mother Kazunoha, a Kitsune didn't want him to become a evil being so she had him be raised by a human (i forget the name of). Seimei's legends even go on to say how he was involve in helping humans and defeating demons like Shuten Doji, and Tamamo no Mae. so while Wang Yuanji has no reason to know who he is. Hanbei and Ginchiyo do, as he is far more famous and legendary then Masako is. In truth Seimei is the Japanese Merlin. While Seimei definitely is powerful he is not invincible either. he still uses Magic of some form and like all magic, it has its limits depending on one's own source of mana or whatever the japanese equivalent of mana is. and frankly even his design is very close to most depictions of Seimei in fiction. so he is pretty close to accurate. even Yoshitsune Minamoto and Benkei have thier own share of myths which is also how they got in. i don't think historical importance was the key factor on how these characters got in. historical accuracy is something i think they would only care about in SW/DW games. So to Japan Seimei is very important as much as Merlin is to the western audiences. if i recall Seimei even has his own shrine just as Guan Yu, Nobunaga Oda, Ieyasu Tokugawa, Hideyoshi Toyotomi do. but in Kaguya's case she would know him because he is technically classified as a mystic even tho he is a new character in Hyper (was in the hyper version before ultimate). so he would be somewhat of a colleague to her. Edited by LordTerrantos, Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:29 am.
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| Lion of Sagami | Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:05 am Post #227 |
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I do not want to be rude, but why being famous means anything? Just because it is famous do I need to accept any designer, personality or the way it is written?
Again, I am not wanting to be rude, but you told the reasons why it needs to be included. But I do not like how it was presented. Having a random character like Wang Yuanji who has no way of knowing why she should like him and the fact that everyone thinks he is a good guy because of stories told by someone else is something I see happen to mary sue. Another proof of this is that when Kaguya appeared to Ma Chao, Sima Zhao and Hanbei Takenaka, the first question was whether she was a demon and no one apologized or said that she is incredible. I think the characters really need to do something to deserve respect, just as Kaguya saved the life of Kai and Shangxiang. They both respected her because of this, not because they heard stories about her. But to be fair, I still have not finished the game, but eventually Seimei can still do something that makes me sympathize with him. No, take great feats off the screen and be immediately idolized when appear does not seem to account for me.
Sorry, I never said that Kaguya had no reason to know it. I just said that the white-haired character who likes her started idolizing Seimei randomly. And I do not want to be rude, but what do you mean by "this historical figure is more popular"? Only if it is in Japan because I never hear of Seimei until I play DW, while I always see Masako when talking about women warriors of Japan. It's like Miyamoto Musashi who almost seems like it was more important than Yukimura because I also never hear of Yukiura in the mainstream. And could you explain to me why we have characters like Joan of Arc and not Merlin himself? And how does it make sense not to follow historical accuracy and rely on a legend, ie a recorded historical document, such as Kyomori Taira becoming a demon? Why can not Masako be a demon then? We need new legends. |
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| LordTerrantos | Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:56 am Post #228 |
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Emperor's Retainer
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well famous doesn't necessarily need to mean anything but it does add more to why a character is included in a game. like Yukimura is famous and he was like one of the first characters included in the SW franchise. same with Lu Bu or Guan Yu for DW. and frankly given how many characters WO3 Ultimate has. a total of 145. not every character is going to be written to be perfect. espeically when some were added in Ultimate which is the expansion of the original WO3. the new additions being: Seimei no Abe, Human Ne Zha, Yinglong, Tamamo no Mae, Kasumi, Rachel, Momiji, Sophitia, Kyubi, and Xu Shu from DW8: Empires (Ultimate Oddly did not add Naotora, Munenori, or Takatora who were in samurai warriors chronicles 2 at the time). and to be fair. only Ma Chao said Kaguya was a Demon. Sima Zhao and Hanbei did not because they actually are intelligent and not damm fools like Ma Chao is. who just recklessly charges into battle. and no, nobody called Seimei a Demon or questioned him. but this doesn't automatically make someone a mary sue. i seen plenty of characters who appear out of no where but this does not make them mary sues. but of course even in myths Seimei is a very calm and collected man and rarely shows emotion because he thinks with logic. too many people use the term mary sue the moment they think a character is OP in thier powers or story writing but i honestly don't think Seimei even remotely qualifies as this. because frankly the same could be said about any character in SW, DW, or WO. what i meant was. regarding Warriors Orochi. historical importance was never a top priority. Seimei is more popular in japan because he is in countless tales and fiction. both anime and video games. Benkei, Seimei, Yoshitsune, and Kiyomori all got in because they had some type of myth that fit in with warriors Orochi. where warriros orochi is meant to be a over top crossover of SW/DW to some scale mixed with chinese and japanese mythology. Well Seimei is also pretty famous to many Anime Fans to as he has appeared in many fiction in anime. Sousei no Onmyouji, Nurarhiyon no Mago, Shaman King (its main villain based off of Seimei), Drifters, and even Omega Force's Toukiden. have Seimei in some shape or form. while you may of not heard of him until WO. He is pretty well known as much as Merlin is. and honestly Masako is really not as well known and doesn't have a single myth that could of added her in WO. Masako's chances are very slim because we already have the SW's Hojo Clan. so i think Omega Force would try to avoid including the Heian Hojo Clan as much as possible, even if we somehow got WO4. i think they would avoid the Heian Hojo clan. the simplest answer to that is. Omega Force has a game with Joan of Arc in it. aka Bladestorm and a game with Achilles aka Warriors of Troy. but they have no games that have Merlin in it. so it would make little sense for them to add him. Okay yes it would if they made him from scratch as it would appeal to the western audiences even more. but they chose not too. again, WO follows more on mythological creatures and myths. and goes for a more over the top story with the SW/DW cast. thier not just going to make up a Legend like Masako is a Demon out of nowhere. as there is no such myth like that about her. unlike the Taira Clan who were said of becoming Onryo after thier deaths. and new Legends cant be made up on the fly in a video game. a legend is created from actual events of some sort. like the whole legends about King Arthur. if we were to get a game with Masako. well it would have to be a game focused in the Heian Era and would have to be called Heian Warriors. and i mean this game would not have the Current Hojo clan. and none of the characters from SW/DW or WO. the only game currenly that has Masako is the Toukiden games, where Masako is a Mitama (heroic spirit). but thats about it. Edited by LordTerrantos, Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:01 am.
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| Lion of Sagami | Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:55 pm Post #229 |
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Well, I understand your point, but sometimes it seems like the characters do not fit into any of these terms. Hayakawa and Gracia is not famous and did not have much historical importance. And yes, Naotora and Takatora should appear too.
The problem is exactly that he did not receive the same treatment as the other characters. I am playing WO3 Ultimate and I may have missed some important event or dialogue, but see how other important legendary historical figures are handled: Sun Wukong, as far as I've seen, is supposed to be a hero who is able to see evil in people's hearts. All I remember was Kunoichi calling him "high monkey" in comparison to Hideyoshi. No one was impressed with him and did not even have an event for him to be introduced. No one thinks why he would be helping the enemy or if he is possessed. Da Ji, Himiko and Taira Kyomori are just treated as generic villains, no one seems impressed and not even had events about them. Motonari at least had the decency to interact with Da Ji to use her as a tool to destroy Hydra while everyone else just wants to hit her. Minamoto no Yoshitsune was in an random battle and I only recognized him because of his helmet and his name. After that, his first event was a meeting with Ayane and only served for fan service. No one cares about the deeds he has done in the past. Then, Seimei no Abe appears and everyone starts praising him automatically without thinking twice. What if Seimei is a spy? Who said he is really Seimei and not an impostor? Why did not he show up earlier? Why easily accept that Sun Wukong is a bad guy, but rely on Seimei because the legends say he is good? He might even be corrupted because of Orochi, but no one cares about this by letting anyone enter that Kaugya refuge. As an example, Kai and Shangxiang sympathized with Kaguya, not because she came down in a bright light and said she was Kaguya, but because she actually saved their lives in Odawara. And this is also too convenient, but everyone is friendly and quickly trust each other. Which is ironic considering that in SW and DW, they are fighting each other. Mary Sue is not simply being "OP", but receives special treatment from the other characters who did more things. Kaguya did less in her legends than Seimei did in his legend, but she was more helpful as far as I played. And nobody was telling how amazing Kaguya is.
I understand why they put characters like Seimei, but I still do not understand why having the two Hojo clans would be a problem? And I'm not questioning Seimei's popularity, but I do not think Masako "is not well known" when she made a real impact on Japan's history and there are probably more people who know about her than Seimei in a technical sense. Merlin may be more popular in the mainstream than historical figures Henry VIII, William Shakespeare and Mary I of England. But surely all the people in England know that they are these three people because they learn about these people from the beginning.
I do not want to be rude, but what exactly happened to the Taira clan being suspected of becoming Onryo after they died? And sorry, I meant new legends in the sense of creating interesting stories about it. And who knows, five hundred years from now, people have misinformation like Guan Yin Ping being the true name of Guan Yu's daughter without knowing that this was created in a video game, so "legends" could not be created because of the games?
And why not? At least they actually made some impact in the history of Japan. And Masako is heroic in Toukiden? And if Sun Wukong is a bad guy in WO3, then why is Seimei supposed to be a good guy because his legend says so? I have not finished the game and maybe he does something useful instead of being praised. |
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| PoetPersonnage | Tue Jun 5, 2018 5:30 am Post #230 |
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Alchemist of the Hojo
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My favorites include: Ujiyasu Hojo, Oichi, Sun Jian, Magoichi Saika, Hanbei Takenaka, Sakon Shima, Ina, Wang Yuanji, Aya, Wang Yi, Ma Dai, Bao Sanniang, Kaguya and Sanzang. (With the first two being my mains and I would put Xu Shu and love Kyubi too if I have Ultimate) Least favorites are: Ma Chao, Mitsunari Ishida, Yukimura Sanada, Gan Ning, Cao Pi, Nezha (both human and cyborg) Da Ji, and Kiyomori Taira. |
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| Artorias | Tue Jun 5, 2018 7:20 am Post #231 |
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Ghost Girls Squad
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Favorite character : -Nuwa -Seimei Abe -Sun Wukong -Orochi -Benkei Least Favorite character : -Shuten Doji -Gyuki -Nezha (Both) |
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