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Warriors Orochi 2 - General Discussion
Topic Started: Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:26 am (201,632 Views)
ChrisX
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Formerly known as Neo Juste Belmont
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No one to show him around? It's actually in the hands of Koei. Koei CAN make someone show him around. But they never want to make that scenario, or at least make that scenario succeed. Ieyasu bothered to beat down Masamune in Shu Story Stage 2 (I would assume, he is persuading him to get back to him), Masamune stays unconvinced. They never want Masamune to develop to something beyond that. Koei apparently loves Masamune's status quo as Orochi's blind follower, and I hate that.

Even Capcom can make someone portrayed silly like Ieyasu being incompetent boy who is constantly kidnapped, into someone who is worthy Motochika's friendly rival in HEROES. At first I thought Capcom hated Ieyasu, but once Capcom fixed Ieyasu... All those hate was gone.

But Koei? They never seem to want Masamune to develop into someone who'd stand up on his feet.

Again, the problem is not on Masamune's character. Judging on what the characterization do, it's pretty okay. The problem is the higher ups there in Koei. They never want to make an event to make Masamune mature, and prefers him to be a blind supporter of Orochi. And that's why I hate it. When the creator was so ignorant to make one character be poignant all the time, whereas development is necessary to make one character more likable.
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T.e.n
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Neo Juste Belmont
Apr 9 2008, 02:09 PM
No one to show him around? It's actually in the hands of Koei. Koei CAN make someone show him around. But they never want to make that scenario, or at least make that scenario succeed. Ieyasu bothered to beat down Masamune in Shu Story Stage 2 (I would assume, he is persuading him to get back to him), Masamune stays unconvinced. They never want Masamune to develop to something beyond that. Koei apparently loves Masamune's status quo as Orochi's blind follower, and I hate that.

Even Capcom can make someone portrayed silly like Ieyasu being incompetent boy who is constantly kidnapped, into someone who is worthy Motochika's friendly rival in HEROES. At first I thought Capcom hated Ieyasu, but once Capcom fixed Ieyasu... All those hate was gone.

But Koei? They never seem to want Masamune to develop into someone who'd stand up on his feet.

Again, the problem is not on Masamune's character. Judging on what the characterization do, it's pretty okay. The problem is the higher ups there in Koei. They never want to make an event to make Masamune mature, and prefers him to be a blind supporter of Orochi. And that's why I hate it. When the creator was so ignorant to make one character be poignant all the time.

Certainly; which is why I adore that Shu Gaiden. It at least shows people trying to help him. Canonly, the only people they bothered to show him interacting with regularly didn't help - that's said character's failing.

Yes, I agree with you that KOEI really does want Masamune to stay as Orochi's blind follower. I just believe his blindness isn't really something he can help all on his own; it's a failing - I find - of those who interact with him and don't attempt to help him. Which is why I find it sad and endearing characterization, he is one of the greatest failings of the heroes in terms of acceptance.

That being said, I am empathetic from where you'd coming from. I hope I'm not making a terrible leap but I imagine you like Masamune and understand him to be a relatively positive and heroic figure. Seeing this happen to him must be very frustrating; I would be in just as much a bind if KOEI had done this to Yue Ying.

This all being said, I hope I don't come off as trying to argue with you or the like - it's not that at all, nor do I believe your perception is wrong. I just wanted to explain why I believe that KOEI doesn't hate Masamune and gave him (what I feel to be) meaningful characterization.
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GoW
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Put it like this NJB, if everyone followed the lets band together and destroy Orochi montra, the game would end in the first stage and there'd be no story.

There needs to be guys that follow the bad guy to move things along. And Masamune is no different than his SW2 incarnation. He followed Hideyoshi and Ieyasu so he didn't get swallowed up and to gain power. Thats basically what he's doing in the Orochi games. But you must think about his persona over the past games, but it can be summed up in that one line he gives before his showdown with Ieyasu...

"You didn't think I'd stay subservient forever, did you?"

Think about it...
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ChrisX
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Well I don't believe him to be heroic and all. I just like him to be independent. Capcom portrayed it well with Masamune in Basara. He's independent, other than his retainers, there's nobody else he takes crap from. Masamune should not look heroic, but he should look like one independent, confident man that won't bow down to supernatural things.

So yeah, if it were me making up a portrayal of Masamune, if given the events of MO... Masamune would not ass-kiss Orochi, nor join Shu/Wei/Wu/Sengoku immediately. He would just say SCREW EVERYONE ELSE, and go rogue... until any faction helped him.

Koei can lift up Masamune's blindness to Orochi's stuff, and improve him. But... they just don't want to. What, do you think removing Masamune's blindness to that will derail his character? I do think it will develop his character for better.

Koei also has done an event where Masamune finally makes his own stand in SW2... but there is one trigger: He witnessed Yukimura going down in the blazes of glory and that makes him wonder about his ass-kissing method. In MO, such event hasn't happened. And Koei does not want to.

Maybe this is my flaw, but if a certain company gives a characterization that I perceive to be humiliating or just plain embarrassing or just wrong IMO... Well I'd just consider them hating the said character. That's one of my flaws, so I hope you can bear with it.

@GOW: Well yeah, but hey, Koei could make Masamune also defect from Orochi, after witnessing similar event like that Osaka event. But they never want to. By putting him under Orochi, who is clearly evil, and will probably always on the losing side, there's no way we are going to see Masamune defect in the middle, if he's the type of man to defect only when his side gets completely beaten.

Besides, with just Fuuma, Dong Zhuo and Sima Yi, who are clearly just evil... it's a solid roster of villains, no need to add up more. Or maybe add up more out of place people to be villains (someone like Kiyomori).

And considering Koei has gone all out for this MO:MS, putting the updates in SW2XL... I would say this could be their final game. But even in face of that, they are still subservient of Masamune being an ass-kissing worshipper.
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hollowmind
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well i glad zhao yun does not have much role this time but still some characters need to have more roles. i think koei hate some of those characters
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GoW
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Again, this game has 90+ characters. Would all of you be satisfied with playing 90 stories? Heck no! There'd be 30 characters collecting dust in that game forever.

As much as we'd love for everyone to have equal camera time in these games, the only way is for individual stories. Which amuses me that so many love this game but clown DW4's musou mode, when they are essentially the EXACT same thing.
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T.e.n
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Neo Juste Belmont
Apr 9 2008, 02:32 PM
Maybe this is my flaw, but if a certain company gives a characterization that I perceive to be humiliating or just plain embarrassing or just wrong IMO... Well I'd just consider them hating the said character. That's one of my flaws, so I hope you can bear with it.

OT; :lol: That isn't a flaw! Institutions such as companies pour alot of money and time and effort into research and design. They are very, very well aware of what their products - in this case, the characters - are communicating to their purchasing audience. We can't assume intent, we can only understand what's been presented to us given the information we've recieved (via education, cultural conditioning, etc). What a company has to do when deciding to communicate something to us is that they have to prepare and learn what information we (their audience) has absorbed beforehand.

Granted, they may not hate a character - but we don't know that. From my perspective, I don't believe they hate a character (or any of their designs, considering waht I've said above and my own work with proffessional character & narrative designers). But that's just conjecture, not a cold hard fact. They certainly may or may not hate a character, we don't know. But the point is we don't know, and if you feel that they may hate a character because of the characterization they gave him in comparison to other characters, that's your perogative. ^_^

G.O.W
 
Again, this game has 90+ characters. Would all of you be satisfied with playing 90 stories? Heck no!

I... actually would. :ph43r: I'm a characterization, interaction and story monger like that.
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ChrisX
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I didn't say it was the company's flaw. I said, it was MY flaw. A lot has really disliked this flaw of mine.

And if that's the case, seeing that this may be the final MO game, I do believe KOEI wants to cement Masamune as an Orochi follower, with no other ways of redemption. Even if they want to add a similar reckoning scene like seeing Yukimura go down in blazes of glory, they're too late to do that. They should've done it here, but no. It never happened. Which is why I really dislike how KOEI portrays Masamune...

@hollowwind: If the portrayal is correct, well I'll take it, even though they do not get much storyline. On Masamune's case, I just simply dislike its portrayal as a dependant warlord, and wished Koei would fix it by MO:MS. But they never want to. And this is made worse when he's practically my 2nd favorite Daimyo of Sengoku Era (first place goes to Ieyasu).
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hollowmind
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i actually dun mind if there are 90 stories and they shld noe that some of the characters they had neglected in the first game.
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Mr.Honda
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I was just reading up on some WO quotes from LoW's guide and stumbled across this interaction with Masamune:

Masamune: "Only the truly great can rule. If you can't understand that, then I'm afraid you forfeit the right to live."
Mitsunari: "Do you really think one day you're going to overcome Orochi?"
Masamune: "Oh no... No one can overcome him - not now, or never."

I think they did over-do it a bit with Masamune's Orochi-kissing nature ...
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GoW
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hollowmind
Apr 9 2008, 02:56 PM
i actually dun mind if there are 90 stories and they shld noe that some of the characters they had neglected in the first game.

Okay, now be honest, how many would you actually play? You'd lose motivation at around 25.

TBH, I struggled to complete all the stories in DW5, they just got monotonous, and this game would be even worse if it went that route.
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T.e.n
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@Mr. Honda - That quote sounds to me like he's convincing himself more than anything, but that's just my reading of the text. ^_^ That being said, if they wanted us to see it as absolutely over-the-top - they certainly succeeded! With fireworks, even.
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hollowmind
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seriously if each have different roles in the game even in the same stage then why not besides the thing is that they have neglected some characters in the first game. they shld know it and let them have some good roles instead of seeing some characters have very important roles in the two games
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ChrisX
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@Mr. Honda: I very much agree. And that's why I want it to stop and finally make one closure for Masamune.

Even Lu Bu got his own closure and had him going away from Orochi and Kiyomori's services (in Wu's story)! If someone as treacherous as Lu Bu actually gets a dose of justice... why can't they do the same to Masamune, who actually deserves it more!?
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GoW
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Neo Juste Belmont
Apr 9 2008, 03:14 PM
If someone as treacherous as Lu Bu actually gets a dose of justice... why can't they do the same to Masamune, who actually deserves it more!?

Well NJB, Lu Bu in history and these games has absoulutly NO redeeming qualities about him. So seeing him do something like that is worth it.

Masamune becoming a ruler at such a young age you can respect, and his portrayal in SW2 is brilliant, how he turns on Ieyasu at the right moment. So hold out hope that there will be something redeeming about his Orochi affiliation in the future.
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ChrisX
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FUTURE? Are you saying there will be another MO game? The way I see it, now that SW2XL is out, DW6 adds nothing new, ANOTHER Musou Orochi would be rather redundant. I mean, who else are they going to add? New 'legends'? Therefore, I tend to believe that this is the final Musou Orochi game, and I don't think there's a way for Masamune to get redeemed. Koei just don't want to redeem him. They actually love torturing us with the prospect of Masamune being an ass-kissing worshipper. At least while Keiji is serving Orochi, he's not ass-kissing, he's just there because 'Hey, he can give me fun fights.'

Usually when I hope for something good, something bad happens and it goes on to my disappointment, so that's why I rarely hope for something good. Because when I do so, bad things happen instead.
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GoW
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Well good or bad KOEI still has a tendency for surprising us.
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ChrisX
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Also, GOW... if you say Masamune turns against Ieyasu in the right moment for SW2... Then mind telling me why Koei just likes to not give Masamune the right moment to turn against Orochi?

And going by Tennoarashi's words, I do believe that this reason of Masamune not understanding the right way was because... none of his retainer was unique characters. Maybe he'd realize those sooner, if the likes of Kojyuuro, Shigezane or Tsunamoto gets to be playable. Or maybe his wife Megohime. And again, Koei just plain hate the Date clan, so they only go as far as adding Masamune, not the rest of his retainers. And that sealed Masamune's chance for redemption or seeing the grand things.
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Li_An_Di
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and how many of the Hojo are playable Neo Juste Belmont??

Masamune just likes to be in the favor of officers of great power i.e Ieyasu and at the right time splits from them and takes a chance at defeating them like G.O.W said about SW2 story mode he revolts against Ieyasu.

Masamune hasn't revolted against Orochi on his own cause koei haven't made him do it basically he could do if he wanted but they just keep him as a kiss-ass waiting for his chance to strike, and yes in the 1st WO he did turn against Orochi in Shu gaiden, and as the Orochi story on Maou Sairin is about how Orochi took control of the newly formed land he will be with Orochi on it as he was with Orochi on the 1st WO.
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Sum Gai
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I think there will be most likely be another MO but it will be on the new gen consoles only and it will use the characters from Dynasty Warriors 6 (or 7 once that is made) and Samurai Warriors 3 when that is made.
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T.e.n
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Sum Gai
Apr 9 2008, 06:43 PM
I think there will be most likely be another MO but it will be on the new gen consoles only and it will use the characters from Dynasty Warriors 6 (or 7 once that is made) and Samurai Warriors 3 when that is made.

Oh, I don't look forward to that.
Unless Yue Ying gets some pants.
And we get individual movesets.

Then I'm all for it!

But honestly, if they make a third one - which I highly suspect they will, since if this is really sucessful they won't have any reason to stop - it will be next Gen. I mean, the first one was supposed to be a farewell bruhaha for the PS2. And look how well that gun stuck. ^_^
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Mac2492
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Neo Juste Belmont
Apr 9 2008, 03:42 PM
FUTURE? Are you saying there will be another MO game? The way I see it, now that SW2XL is out, DW6 adds nothing new, ANOTHER Musou Orochi would be rather redundant. I mean, who else are they going to add? New 'legends'? Therefore, I tend to believe that this is the final Musou Orochi game, and I don't think there's a way for Masamune to get redeemed. Koei just don't want to redeem him. They actually love torturing us with the prospect of Masamune being an ass-kissing worshipper. At least while Keiji is serving Orochi, he's not ass-kissing, he's just there because 'Hey, he can give me fun fights.'

Usually when I hope for something good, something bad happens and it goes on to my disappointment, so that's why I rarely hope for something good. Because when I do so, bad things happen instead.

Another Warriors Orochi game wouldn't make sense. Warriors Orochi: Maou Sairin XL is a possibility, I suppose. It could add in the extra charge attacks, 5th weapons, a few new characters (4-5?), and maybe some other goodies. I'm sure people would snap that up. :P

P.S. Bad things will happen whether you hope for good or hope for bad. You might as well keep an optimistic view of the world. There's no reason to always hope for the worst.
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T.e.n
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Mac2492
Apr 9 2008, 06:58 PM
Another Warriors Orochi game wouldn't make sense.

Now now - if it makes money, that's all the sense Koei needs. :lol: Storyline-wise, it wouldn't be that hard to continue. They can just come up with a new antagonist. Hell, they could even use Himiko & Sun Wukong if push comes to shove.
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Mr.Honda
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Don't forget, they left out the one who defeated Orochi according to legend. They could stretch this out until they add Susanoo, and we would still be buying it :rolleyes:
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Aygor
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Mr.Honda
Apr 9 2008, 07:04 PM
They could stretch this out until they add Susanoo,

that's my fear.. if they left out susanoo it is to make a sequel/expansion maybe..but i hope not..it'd get disgusting.
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